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This is a heads up and request for more eyes on this article North East Delhi riots and the talk page.

The talk page is currently protected. (I confess when I first glanced at the talk page I was slightly surprised to see the protection, but take a glance at Archive 2 and you will see why.) The protection is scheduled to end tomorrow.

I handled roughly 20 reports to OTRS complaining about this article — I don't know how many were handled by other agents, but almost all of them have been advised to open a discussion on the talk page so there may be a flurry of activity tomorrow when the talk page protection expires. My hope is that with enough eyes on the page, we can handle the contributions rather than having to extend protection.

This article undoubtedly contributes to the issue. See also:

• User_talk:El_C#North_East_Delhi_riots
• ANI thread

--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• On a lighter note, though, may I introduce User:DBigXRay, or, as he is now known from that article, a senior Wikipedia editor that hoes by the username DBigXray. Does he indeed!  ;) ——SN54129 15:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• But yeah, that talk page is going to light up like July the 4th tomorrow. All hands to the pump. ——SN54129 15:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also articles in Jihad Watch and OpIndia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:31, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Serial Number 54129, That is a mirror of this site which (As Gråbergs Gråa Sång rightly puts), is an Indian version of InfoWars). Not sure if it was a typo or deliberate, either way it just shows how pissed off they are to see facts out on Wiki. --⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 20:04, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

---

1RR has been added to the article. Three users blocked. As mentioned, talk page protected for one day — hopefully, my pointers are adhered to, because a repeat of today's insanity will not be sustainable — and if repeated, I lean toward protecting the talk page for a week or so next, as much as it pains me to do so. El_C 19:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

El_C, looking at the page history POV redaction using multiple reverts in violation of 1RR have already been done. ⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 20:04, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please submit a report at AE or AN3 for 1RR enforcement, with all the documentation attached. El_C 20:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

---

• Takijeg398 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can an admin hide the threats from this user on my talk. Apparently I am going to be hunted down, very soon. If so, I want the community to know that it was a pleasure being here. ⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 06:16, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• • Also I believe he is a sock of User:Biman1989 (blocked by Bbb23) as the language is same as its socks and harassment emails I have been getting lately. ⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 06:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Requesting my userpage and user talk be semi protected to discourage further socking. I have already disabled Emails. --⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 06:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. El_C 07:04, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks El_C, much appreciated. --⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 08:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

---

• 2 hours back, a Twitter handle with 262K followers has asked people to storm this article. [1] --⋙–DBigXrayᗙ 11:40, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  DBigXray, I'm not sure whether it's that or the other biased articles that have been written, but I just handled 29 inquiries at OTRS on this subject in the last hour. S Philbrick(Talk) 15:22, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, not to jingse it, but we have managed to stay the course today, with the article talk page remaining open — I'd (cautiously) call that a success. El_C 01:54, 2 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In a brilliant analysis of the riots in The Atlantic an acclaimed author Mira Kamdar writes:

The message from the BJP is clear: Elect whomever you like. We are still in power. Call the police; they work for us. Appeal to the courts; we’ll neutralize any judges who don’t toe our line. Continue to dissent, and we will set the mob on you.^[1]

That, in effect, is what is being on this page. The "mob" has been set on us, the standard modus vivendi of the Indian right wing. Wugapodes has now semi-ed the talk page for three days. I suspect it will need to be long term. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:58, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note that 3 editors seem to have been outed over this issue, DBigXray having retired. There's been an attempt to out a third but so far unsuccessful. Doug Weller talk 17:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be wise to do something, such as an editnotice, to remind people editing such topics that Wikipedia is public and we can't control what people do outside of it. I think a lot of people don't realize it can be easier than they think for people to figure out their identity, and when there's a serious potential for some people to be subject to real-world harm, we should make sure editors are aware of that. (Note that "harm" is broader than just physical harm: job loss, damage to personal relationships, etc.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 01:36, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's some pretty blatant socking going on at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Guy Macon. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:44, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There were about 30 unblocked accounts confirmed to them. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Seems odd for someone to go to all that effort and then blow their cover by socking so blatantly that they had zero chance of getting away with it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 05:40, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, RfA should always be semi-protected. Unconfirmed editors should not be allowed to vote there because most of the time they lack experience.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:24, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@NinjaRobotPirate: I think that User:Gotitbro might be the sock master since the confirmed sock Grittrue seems to have been created to back Gotitbro up in an edit war on the emerging power article. I suggest a check user is performed on that account, assuming proxy IPs are not being utilised. Also the usernames look ”similarish”.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That was just one sock puppet out of dozens. I wouldn't put so much emphasis on that one sock. Most throwaway sock puppet accounts are designed to be caught and be a waste of our time. To waste even more time, they also frequently try to set up innocent users. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:25, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so Gotitbro is innocent then. I withdraw my concern then, thank you for explaining Ninja.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 07:41, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of two possible reasons for sockpuppetry at an RFA. The first would be opposition to the candidate, probably for revenge, in which case the sockpuppeteer would want the sockpuppetry to go unnoticed, and so corrupt the vote. The second would be trolling or a general effort to cause dissension and conflict. In that case, the sockpuppetry probably is more effective if it is seen for what it is. Actually, a third would be to support the candidate surreptitiously, but I don't think that it is likely, because I wouldn't expect trolls or long-term abusers to support a trusted editor. It looks in this case like the second, a general effort to cause conflict. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:17, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Concur with the second possibility, obvious sock votes => votes struck => looks like supporters are engaging in sockpuppetry. Basically a joe job. Unless they want us to think that it's a joe job, and it really is sockpuppetry by supporters and is intentionally clumsy to lead us to the conclusion that it's a joe job...we can go down this rabbit hole all day. Reminds me of a quote from a Star Wars novel, something like "either he was innocent and being made to look guilty, or he was guilty and was making himself look innocent by appearing to be poorly framed". ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 19:43, 4 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Creffett, that hurt my brain. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 13:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Creffett, he can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 22:38, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Levivich, never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line! creffett (talk) 23:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've commented at RFA a few times. There's no need to semiprotect anything unless there is ongoing vandalism. I dunno if those sock accounts were autoconfirmed, but requiring them to be wouldn't have been that much an obstacle to the socket. 2602:24A:DE47:B270:A096:24F4:F986:C62A (talk) 02:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've got a downright doozy of a case for all of you. It involves an American politician, Ibraheem Samirah who's currently serving in the Virginia House of Delegates. He just let it slip that he's behind at least one, but probably two accounts that are actively engaged in a white-washing attempt on his page. He's made repeated anti-semitic comments such as the KKK is worse than Israel and insulated that Jews are dirty, he's even assaulted a Jewish reporter who was peacefully debating the Israeli–Palestinian conflict with a protestor at the 2016 Democratic Party presidential primaries. Samirah has publicly stated in the Atlantic that he believes in politics of forced change, not through civility or dialogue. He is currently acting it out on his Wikipedia page. I first request that all of his edits be removed from the page (I don't want any of the editors currently involved in the dispute to face sanctions outside of Samirah for his aforementioned issues, and we've hit our revision limit so I'd like new eyes), then we need to move forward with an investigation over his current sock puppetry, and finally, I'd appreciate feedback about how we go about writing up his anti-semitic behavior and connections to Islamic extremism along with providing an account detailing his behavior on Wikipedia to the community and himself ultimately, so, he can hopefully learn from this instance and the public will be able to learn about what he's committed both on and off Wikipedia. This case is one of the most outrageous and ridiculous cases that I've stumped upon. I look forward to hearing from y'all. For the record, I've done a good job—at least in my mind—of summarizing all of his transgressions on his, and I'll probably keep expanding upon the evidence I've already found. Check out the article's talk page for a compiling of everything thus far. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 06:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have high-quality sources for these claims about a living person? Please show diffs which demonstrate the COI. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:46, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's literally all written up on the article's talk page. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 07:55, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not; I don't see any links to high-quality sources which discuss the purported allegations you make here. "Assault" is a crime, and there are zero sources cited anywhere on the talk page which state that this person is guilty of a crime. Either provide sources or you should start redacting these claims. I've already rewritten the header to be a more neutral statement of the situation.

Your statement that you want go about writing up his anti-semitic behavior and connections to Islamic extremism along with providing an account detailing his behavior on Wikipedia is highly concerning in and of itself - you seem to have an ax to grind against this person. Wikipedia writes neutral, balanced biographies based on reliable sources and while editors can have points of view, they shouldn't be here expressly to portray a person positively or negatively. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you actually look up the edit revisions, linked on the article's talk page, which show the examples that I'm mentioning since they were reversed, and all the links are provided there. He admits to pouring water on a reporter, which is assault or simple assault (both misdemeanors) in the US. Also, I find it highly troubling that you decided to change the title of the section (which I didn't even name btw) to fit your slant. It's a clear case of conflict of interest and probably sock puppetry that even the admin that let the initial edits stand with regards to anti-semitism and how to summarize it correctly noted it's probably Samirah himself trying to undermine the process. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 08:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what you think is assault or simple assault - it matters what reliable sources say. And unless you have a reliable source that says he was even charged, much less convicted, of assault, that's right out. You need to immediately read the Biographies of Living Persons policy and take it to heart. We have a responsibility to biographical subjects to treat them fairly and write their articles in a neutral and non-sensational manner. Your attempt to staple together innuendo printed in a bunch of partisan scandal sheets to suggest that this subject is some sort of extremist terrorist sympathizer is highly inappropriate. What reliable sources say this person has "connections to Islamic extremism"? If you can't cite them, this accusation should be immediately struck. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More: This does not mean that COI editing and sockpuppetry are appropriate - it is clearly possible that this is the case, looking at diffs and the unknown users in question. But it is also true that living people who perceive unfair treatment in their biographies are often unfamiliar with our policies and procedures and are driven to correct (and often overcorrect) what they perceive as unfair writing. Looking at past revisions by Buzzards-Watch Me Work, which are clearly written in a manner which tends to portray the article subject in as negative a light as possible, using highly-partisan and dubious sources for claims of fact... I can see how this situation would have arisen. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is literally one of the most ridiculous things that I've read on here. Why don't you actually look up the definition of assault and simple assault? It's not like I'm pulling it up out of my ass. Furthermore, I find it highly offensive that someone who patrols this page would freely insulate that I'd make up an assault allegation. Also, it doesn't matter if he was charged or convicted since misdemeanor assault cases are normally at the discretion of the victim to press charges, and they're a number of reasons why you wouldn't press charges. But, he's literally admitted to it.

Your other point is also quite questionable since he's completely whitewashing his page. Even the admin who I'm working with notes he's attempting to do it. The idea that you're insinuating that it's not a big deal to do both of them is just completely absurd. If you literally create another account to continue whitewashing after receiving notifications from multiple edits of your actions it wreaks completely. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 08:45, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it doesn't matter if he was charged or convicted - I suggest that this statement renders you entirely unfit to edit Wikipedia biographies, because it's clear that you have absolutely no idea how the encyclopedia works and how our articles are written. This encyclopedia is based on reliable sources, and it absolutely matters that we do not state that someone committed a crime when no reliable source says they have committed a crime. This is basic and fundamental to writing an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and not on personal opinions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Buzzards-Watch Me Work Please read the following statement carefully: BLP policy applies on every page, including this one, not just in article space. If there are no reliable sources that explicitly say that he was convicted of assault, then you cannot say that he did so, anywhere on this site. For you to decide what is and is not assault is WP:OR, which is not permitted. Either back up your assertion with sources, or strike those statements. If you make another unsourced accusation of criminality, your account will be blocked from editing. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Girth Summit, it's apparent that he poured water on him which forces him to run away from his conversation with a protester along with his entire crew helping and surrounding him ie fleeing a physical menace as defined by Pennsylvania law (where it happened). How else would you decribe said occurrence? Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 09:30, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You still don't get it or understand, which means a BLP topic ban is in order, at minimum.

You do not have a reliable source which says this person committed assault, which means Wikipedia cannot and will not say that they did. What you are suggesting is textbook prohibited synthesis, and is prohibited precisely because you have no idea what you're talking about. (Hint: the phrase "fear of imminent serious bodily injury" is not likely to result from getting your hairdo wet.)

We are not going to falsely and misleadingly portray someone who dumped a bottle of water over someone's head as if they are guilty of a crime of violence. Your sustained effort to do so is prima facie evidence that you have an ax to grind against this article subject and are editing their article not to create a neutral encyclopedic biography, but to express your displeasure with them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:48, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He is literally forced to leave the area by his bodyguard and crew which signals fear of bodily harm. Why are you demeaning it? It is certainly a violent act. I never accused him of punching him or anything of that manner, and in the original write up it specified what he did. Furthermore, I find it ridiculous that you then blame me for the problem. I wouldn't be here if he didn't break policy on conflict of interest or probable sock puppetry. I came here asking input over how to deal with him and also write up his past statements properly. His page still has unsourced material that needs to be removed. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 09:57, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BOOMERANG applies here. Sockpuppetry and COI editing are bad, and should cease. But making unsourced claims of criminality against a living person is also very bad, and poorly-written BLPs with false/libelous material often lead to COI problems because defamed subjects feel justifiably angry and attempt to remove the material themselves. Your behavior here is contributory to the problem. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Buzzards-Watch Me Work, you've been here for quite a while, I'm surprised that you don't seem to understand the importance of the advice given in WP:BLP and WP:OR. For any assertion, we should describe things in the same terms as the sources do; for a BLP, that's especially important, and for a claim of criminality (assault is a crime) it is of fundamental and vital importance. If a reliable source says that he poured water on someone, and he has confirmed that he does not deny doing so, then we can say in Wikipedia's voice that he poured water on someone. What you are doing by using another source to assert that pouring water on someone is assault is described at SYNTH, and you absolutely must not do it in a BLP, especially for a claim that he has committed a criminal act. I'm quite serious - now you have been advised of this, if you repeat it you can expect to be immediately blocked. I have no view on the article content, or on the accusations of whitewashing and/or sockpuppetry, but what you have been doing in making unsourced assertions of criminality about a specific living person is the most concerning thing I've seen in this thread. GirthSummit _(blether) 10:14, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Although it's true he made anti-Semitic remarks about 6 years ago while he's in college, I see no mention by Buzzards-Watch Me Work that he apologised a year ago for them - see this article in The Times of Israel[2]. The water throwing incident apparently happened but the sources I found were The Washington Free Beacon and Townhall using the WFB as a source, neither of which we would use in a BLP. Doug Weller talk 10:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

However, I'm concerned about the two SPAs, Is0811a and Johnbellgotahaircut - could just be supporters, could be a COI. Doug Weller talk 10:12, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Enough evidence for a CheckUser, I'd say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:14, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller, The original version I saw, here, by Buzzards, did make it clear that he had apologised. So I don't think that comment is quite fair. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 11:00, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bellezzasolo then he should have made that clear here. Doug Weller talk 11:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bellezzasolo I appreciate it, and Doug Weller, I did make it clear in my follow up. It's just hard to keep up when I'm getting things thrown at me. I do apologize for not spelling it out clearer though. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 12:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• So we need a check for socks, and Buzzards needs, at least, a page-ban, for issues with Synth, OR, and BLPCRIME. Broader prohibitions could also be considered, but probably should warrant a separate sub-section below to discuss. If there aren't socks, a look indicates some COI issues that need resolving (or indeed, there could be both) Nosebagbear (talk) 10:19, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From this checkuser's perspective, there is insufficient technical evidence at this time to say that this is the same user. Formally, it's inconclusive. Following the BLP theme above I'll also point out for the purpose of these discussions that, whether it's the same user or not, there is insufficient evidence to say who this is. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How come zzuuzz? Both of them are only editing that page, and right after one of them gets a message on their user talk regarding their editing behavior, it switches to the other account. Their edit summaries also regurgitate the same or similar points. The only difference I can see between them is one of them is almost entirely mobile while the other one appears to be desktop based. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can assure you that's not the only difference. Please have a look at whichever page explains the limitations of checkuser, because that's exactly what this statement is all about. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 11:40, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes zzuuzz, I've noticed several other differences between them too with regards to sock puppetry (like one mostly adds content, the other mostly blacks it among other technical issues etc.), but one of them basically admitted to being the individual he's writing on by stating "me" in the author's spot, and they've contributed to slanting the article pretty heavily in one direction. I know the limitations of checkuser, but I'm worried this issue will continue to manifest if something isn't done about it. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 12:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Girth Summit I actually wrote: "Samirah assaulted Geraldo Rivera, a Fox News reporter, by pouring water on him while he was debating the Israeli–Palestinian conflict with a protester on camera at the 2016 Democratic National Convention." I was using the word assault to summarize the occurrence, and not to mislead. I clearly stated that he poured water on him in the article. I was using assault as an adjective legal descriptor, and on here to summarize his actions towards Rivera. I do understand your point on criminality and how that comes off, which is/was not my objective. I was just trying to summarize the occurrence on here instead of spelling it out the entire occurrence as I did in the article. I do completely realize your WP:SYNTH point. It was not my intention to write up WP:OR for the article, I was just trying to summarize it with a legal descriptor. I should have wrote something like, 'Samirah poured water on Geraldo Rivera, a Fox News reporter, forcing him to flee while he was debating the Israeli–Palestinian conflict with a protester on camera at the 2016 Democratic National Convention' in the article. I do actually appreciate your level-headed response. I just got incredibly annoyed when I was blatantly accused of lying about the incident, and I was defending my assertion from my legal experience. I had/have no intention of writing it up like that (evident by my initial write up), and it was an oversight on my behalf to phrase it like that in the article (note my clarified statement). Again, I do appreciate your constructive feedback. It's part of the reason I came here. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 11:19, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller I actually wrote that he apologized for some of his anti-semitic comments in the original write up on his article, but he also insinuated that Jews are dirty when describing a postcard. That, along with an anti-semitic comment or at least anti-Israel link was posted after his initial apology. I specified all of that in the article. I checked Wikipedia's reliable sources list when I was rewriting the section, and I didn't find them located there. I'm curious why you don't think they're reliable enough? They're not listed as banned or under warning. The one about pouring water has video and social media from him on it, so why can't we include that? I'm actually here to get constructive feedback regarding them, not to complain. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 11:19, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nosebagbear I do get your feelings on the matter, but I actually started this page to constructive support about the write up, and I've not reverted any of the recent edits on the page to initially avoid an edit war. I came here to get expert advice on the matter, and I attempted to source all the relevant information on his page, including the fact he was in a historically Jewish fraternity in the section regarding his anti-semitic comments along with his original apology on the matter. It's just there's, unfortunately, a lot of anti-semitic or at least anti-Israel comments he's made throughout his life. I'm trying to be as possible when I literally sent hours going through his edits and his father legal case on deportation to try and find if what he was writing had merit, which it largely didn't. It annoys me that someone with his level of public standing would try and bias public opinion on his actions. Including misattributing or downright lying about a judicial opinion found in the legal case. I've been trying to be as objective as possible about it. But, there's still currently unsourced information on his page, and I'm choosing to not touch it so I can build consensus about it. I wouldn't even break the reversion limit if I touched it, but like I said I'm trying to avoid an edit war on there. It keeps getting changed slowly over days, and I want to fairly summarize all relevant information. How are my actions causing harm to the article when I've chosen to get feedback from y'all? Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 11:19, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buzzards-Watch Me Work: the decade old entry for Townhall says "As of 2010, a few editors commented that opinion pieces in Townhall are reliable as a source for the opinion of the author of the individual piece, although they may not be reliable for unattributed statements of fact, and context will dictate whether the opinion of the author as such, meets the standard of WP:DUEWEIGHT." I'll get back to WP:UNDUE. The author of the piece is Matt Vespa who "previously worked for CNSNews.com and was the recipient of Americans for Prosperity Foundation's 2013 Andrew Breitbart Award for Excellence in Online Activism and Investigative Reporting."[3] I presume you know about Breitbart, and CNSNEWS is part of Media Research Center. Still, we aren't talking about opinion here. The policy issue is WP:UNDUE - "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." In other words, if something is barely covered, why should we mention it? Particularly in a BLP. I couldn't find any mainstream coverage (and neither of those sources is mainstream, they are niche partisan sources). Doug Weller talk 11:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was first talking about the inclusion of the WFB since it highlights the incident with Rivera in it. As for Townhall, I think we should mention it since I personally noticed the citation after reading about the story in The Virginia Mercury, and it delves into the actual account pretty well. The Virginia Mercury is a paper that focuses solely on reporting Virginia's news. I don't think you can find any substantial bias from them. As for the case for UN:DUE, I honestly, don't see it. He forces a reporter to flee his job (he's actually reporting the news) and what prompted his action steems from the issues surrounding the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, so I find it really hard not to mention it since he's a legislator after all. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 12:42, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buzzards-Watch Me Work: by "significance" we mean the amount of coverage in mainstream sources, not anyone's perceived importance of an event. I have no problem with using the Virginia Mercury as a general rule, but I'm still not sure that reaches significance. I can't comment on the specific article as I can't get my VPN to connect, and I need that to read it. Doug Weller talk 13:10, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller, Yeah, GDPR is a pain sometimes. It is in the VM - Later that year, he was filmed standing with a group of protesters outside the Democratic National Convention and dumping a bottle of water on the head of Fox News’ Geraldo Rivera — an incident he hasn’t directly acknowledged but, in response to questions, did not deny. Also relevant to this section is His brash approach to politics drew scrutiny during his February campaign for office, with his Republican opponent accusing him of anti-Semitism for Facebook posts in 2014 that, among other things, compared funding Israel to supporting the Ku Klux Klan. Samirah apologized for his language but dismissed the criticism as a smear campaign.

But at this point it's feeling like we're more and more discussing content, rather than conduct. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 14:13, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doug Weller and Bellezzasolo when I lived in Europe dealing with GDPR was a complete pain. I do get your significance point, Doug. I was trying to establish why I personally thought it was relevant information first and then I was establishing media significance to it by bringing in more mainstream or neutral sources. Outside of The Virginia Mercury it's also been mentioned in the Washingtonian. Both of these publications are well established and relatively natural papers on local politics. I didn't think my character or intentions were going to be thrown under the bus as they've been here. I really wanted assistance trying to flush out the conflict of interest and sock puppetry first before moving onto contents, which is probably better to discuss on the article's talk page since it'd be in one place. I'd like to build consensus over the anti-semitic comments and other issues, but we've also got an individual who's whitewashing their own page (he literally said "me" when he was attributing a quote) that needs to be dealt with. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 17:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment:@Buzzards-Watch Me Work: You haven't notified either Is0811a or Johnbellgotahaircut on their talk page with {{subst:AN-notice}} despite clearly talking about them.

Since there seems to be both a disconnect in being able to neutrally apply core tennants of editing (BLP, UNDUE, DUE, etc) with respect to this subject and in light of the lack of self recognition the activity is troublesome, I therefore propose the following: Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)(BWMW) is indefinitely topic banned from editing Ibraheem Samirah broadly construed. Appeal and review shall be no early than 6 months and 6 months after any unsuccessful appeal. BWMW is encouraged to work on other topics and demonstrate a much better familiarity and proficiency with applicable policies prior to appeal. Hasteur (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support As proposer. BWMW's responses here are significantly concerning, in addition to other editors suggesting that a block/ban may be needed. Wanting to try for a lower level restriction. Hasteur (talk) 21:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Mild Oppose. Not quite weak, but certainly not particularly strong. User clearly has made some grave mistakes, but he certainly seems willing to learn from them when they're pointed out. I have faith Buzzards-Watch Me Work will improve over time but only if there isn't a cloud over his head. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:57, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Let's make that a tepid oppose. @Buzzards-Watch Me Work: I can't find any evidence that either Johnbellgotahaircut or Is0811a have ever even said the word "me" in their on-wiki activity. Can point to the specific edit you are referring to? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 22:26, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MJL, so, Is0811a (talk · contribs) while he was attributing the source for part of his most recent edit, specifically, one about himself in the Washingtonian, wrote "me" in the author's last name listing spot. He also properly sourced another citation from Virginia onAir, where he was being interviewed by Shuaib Ahmed, prior to writing "me" on the author's listing spot. He obviously knows how to compose references properly on Wikipedia. He just slipped up and wrote "me" without realizing the significance of it. Buzzards-Watch Me Work (talk) 00:08, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Buzzards-Watch Me Work: (1) See Cullen's statement below. (2) What would |last2=home mean then? (3) Ignoring the evidence that this was clearly a broken way to put a quote in the page... wouldn't that imply that Is0811a was the Washingtonian reporter instead? The article's subject didn't exactly write a Washingtonian article about themselves. (edit conflict) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 01:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support topic ban. It is obvious that this new editor Is0811a does not understand how reference templates work, as this example of their work shows:

"last=me|2=first=“I can’t make a post about health care without someone telling|last2=home.'”|first2=‘you’re not American Go back"

The editor clearly does not understand that those fields are for the first and last names of two authors, and instead was trying to format a quote from the reference:

"I can’t make a post about health care without someone telling me you’re not American. Go back home."

Buzzards-Watch Me Work also clearly does not understand what is going on with this edit, and their notion that "last=me" is an acknowledgement that Is0811a is actually Ibraheem Samirah, is quite frankly ludicrous.

Throughout this thread, Buzzards-Watch Me Work has shown serious misunderstandings of BLP policy, and it is obvious that they have an axe to grind regarding Ibraheem Samirah. Accordingly, I support this topic ban, and advise the editor that continuing this type of conduct in other areas of the encyclopedia may result in stronger sanctions. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:14, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak support: The responses (and the concerning comments regarding the use of "assault" / BLP editing) demonstrate some strong opinions from BWMW about the subject. In particular, the wording of the initial request and the comment we go about writing up his anti-semitic behavior and connections to Islamic extremism along with providing an account detailing his behavior on Wikipedia to the community and himself ultimately, so, he can hopefully learn from this instance and the public will be able to learn about what he's committed both on and off Wikipedia is concerning. Hopefully this is an isolated incident. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:04, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support with regret. I'd hoped to be able to address these issues by talking them through, and had a discussion with BWMW on their talk page. Since they've posted a retirement banner on there now, I no longer want to badger them there. I think that a TBan is probably needed in case they decide to return - if they want to do that, I'd want to see some evidence that they've read and understood the relevant policies before starting work again on that particular article. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:58, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll add that BWMW has indicated that they may return a some future point with a different account. If this TBan is enacted, it will need to be explained to them that it applies to them as a person, not just to the account - socking to evade a ban or block isn't an acceptable plan for how to proceed, they would be better advised to edit uncontroversially and apply for the ban to be lifted after a while, once they've shown that they understand the relevant policies fully. GirthSummit _(blether) 14:10, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • While not making implications, I observe the edit summary and retirement "reason" give rise to WP:CLOUD concerns. Hasteur (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Buzzards-Watch Me Work has retired. A page/topic ban might still be sufficient to prevent further disruption, but I just wanted to note that for the future record. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:31, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Retirements can be withdrawn at any time and therefore, this "retirement" declaration is irrelevant to this discussion. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:28, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328: Hence the part where I said a topic ban might still be necessary.. My point was to pre-emptively explain why more severe sanctions are probably not for the best right now. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:20, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. A few individuals have been helping to expand Wikipedia:Community portal, to expand its usefulness as a central place for listing current editing activities, including WikiProject efforts, editing drives, edit-a-thons, etc etc. we added a new section there for listing current editing group activities and events.

I am writing this note simply to let the community know. I also posted a note at Wikipedia: Village pump (idea lab). Any of you are welcome to visit the page, add any comment, and of course to add any items or information on any community activities, editing projects, or other events that you may be a part of. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful, that you're not overdoing it. GoodDay (talk) 18:14, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

that's a valid point. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• How is this different than all of the other notice boards like VP? AN? etc...Praxidicae (talk) 19:01, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of things I found recently. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with them, and found them equally positive and inspiring:

• Jimbo's comments about editors,
• Wikipedia Is the Last Best Place on the Internet

I've been keeping them in my mind, and thinking that it really is something incredibly positive that we are doing here, and yes, there are a few rough patches we can work on.

We rely on admins to mop up the spills and it can be a pretty bloody thankless task, so let me say thank you for your efforts. God knows that I prefer being able to run away and do something else when things get too hot, but you folk have to put on your admin boots and wade in. Thanks.

Speaking of hot, I'm sure everybody has been aware of the bushfires in Australia. There's a regular article we put out, for example 2016–17 Australian bushfire season, because of course we have most of our bushfires in the Southern Hemisphere summer which spans two years. We've been doing this for years, and it's usually a pretty uncontroversial thing.

Not this year. There have been all sorts of political aspects, and supporters of various political positions have been having a go at our article, not wanting to talk about the fires so much as make sure that they get their particular views into Wikipedia and that makes it official.

Sigh.

It's turned into a bit of a hotbed, and it's just massive compared to previous years: 2019–20 Australian bushfire season

I've tried to stay out of all that, but I got pulled in when I saw some edit-warring over something really stupid. (Story of my life, I guess.) The end date of the bushfire season. In previous years, we've gone along with the Australian Bureau of Meteorology, and they have a graphic showing the season in various regions, and it starts in winter (June-August) in the northern parts where the summers are really wet, and ends in spring (March-May) in Tasmania. So the Australian bushfire season really goes all year round from June of one year to May of the next.

I didn't know this at first, and the question in this year's article was that if all the summer bushfires were out, then perhaps the season was over? One guy said March was the end of the season because all of the bushfires were out, and another said the end of the season was ongoing because there might be more. This sounded like he had a handy view into the future to me, and I got sucked in over the philosophical implications.

Anyways, it got pretty heated there, with edit-warring and some trolling and a personal attack or two.

I was proposing an RfC on the season end date, going by the advice of Cas Liber who had waded into the flames and told us to stop throwing rocks at each other. I didn't see that this particular comment was anything but personal, so I looked up WP:RPA, removed it and left the suggested template.

The other guy complained to Admin Cas, who presumably sighed, grabbed his fire extinguisher, and jumped in once more. No criticism of Cas Liber, but I'd put in a comment about my philosophy on Wikipedia:

God forbid that any article should be seen as the personal preserve of a clique who launch personal attacks and edit-war over trivia. Let us set aside ego and attachment, and calmly accept that wikiprocedure will guide us through any difficulty.

and Cas removed it, saying that if I could remove someone else's personal attack, then he could remove my comments, which were not actually directed at anybody in particular, and are sentiments I hold pretty close to my heart and consider could usefully be employed by more people, not just in Wikipedia, but in wider life.

I think that civility piece, that minimum standard, is incredibly important, what I want us to do is to raise the level in the entire community, to raise the spirit of what we're doing, and I think that thinking about love, is the right way to do that. - Jimbo

Again, not a breath of criticism toward Cas, but where does the community of admins stand on the matter of humble editors pushing the line of civility and tolerance so eloquently expressed by Jimbo?

Is it really the place of admins to remove comments which while not strictly dealing with the business of the article, are aimed at promoting cooperation and a positive working environment? --Pete (talk) 23:58, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Skyring, Cas seems to be doing a remarkable job of moderating that dispute. Civil POV pushing can be just as disruptive as uncivil POV pushing. My advice to you would be to focus on the content of the article, or the tone of the participants. Don't try to do both at once. – bradv🍁 00:23, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ya'll should have an Rfc at that article. GoodDay (talk) 00:50, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's fun to argue whether the 2019–20 Australian bushfire season is "June 2019 – ongoing" or "Winter (June) 2019 – Autumn (May) 2020" (no doubt there is a political backstory unknown to naive onlookers such as myself). However, people here are pretty smart and they can recognize sanctimonious twaddle when it is presented on a plate. As noted by bradv above, Skyring should either focus on content only, or could try appointing themselves Talk Page Monitor and post prattle about the behavior of other editors. Johnuniq (talk) 01:18, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

as I mentioned on my talk page - Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point and Wikipedia:Gaming_the_system#Gaming_the_consensus-building_process - Skyring, you really need to focus on the article rather than continue on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:22, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cas! This isn't about the article. Or me, or you, or anyone else. I have no complaints or criticism about you. This is me making a wider comment on civility. Yes, of course we should focus on wikiwork. But when the workplace turns toxic, it isn't a positive thing. Jimbo made some good thoughtful points in the talk linked to above and I wonder how much the admin corps backs him on this. Lip service only? Wholehearted support? So far the advice given here seems to be that editors should duck their heads down and ignore personal attacks. I guess if you have a mop and bucket, everything looks like a mess to be mopped up, but I can't help but feel that there's more to it than that. --Pete (talk) 05:10, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, there is much more to being a useful admin than striking out bad words or comments about other editors. For one thing, some editors will never rest until they get their way and they are able to push and push indefinitely or until stopped. People at this noticeboard are advising that it is time to stop. Johnuniq (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pile-on agree with Johnuniq and Bradv. Speaking as someone with no connection to Australia and no particular interest in the topic at hand, whatever your (Skyring's) intent this looks very much like you declaring yourself a super-user and taking exception at being asked to treat other editors with the respect you'd want them to give to you. "Civility" isn't a synonym for "not swearing", and to be blunt it's clear to everyone except you who the uncivil editor on that discussion currently is. ‑ Iridescent 08:56, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're absolutely right there, Iridescent. Not clear at all to me. I'm into my eighth decade, so the intellect isn't what it used to be. Could you explain yourself a little further, give a diff, perhaps? --Pete (talk) 11:13, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will quotes suffice?

Lay off me, HiLo. This isn't about you. If you can't provide some editorial input here, why don't you butt out?[4] - This is your first reply to HiLo48 after reverting them at the article, with the summary [y]ou got a crystal ball, HiLo? They have stopped. Stick to the facts. Seriously?

But your position seems to be that the end of the season is flexible, depending on the original research of editors as to what constitutes enough of a fire to leave a scorch mark on Wikipedia[5] -You asserted that the fires were over. And you left that gem when confronted with the fact that they were not, in fact, over.

Does anybody have a good argument as to why we should now change this longstanding consensus to suit the whims of original research and personal opinion? - Bearing in mind that the day prior you were asserting that the season had already ended because, and I quote, they (the fires) have stopped. But then, you switch stance to: We don't wait for the bushfires to end, we don't guess, we go by the Bureau of Meteorology saying that's when the season ends.[6] Again, the very day prior you were asserting the exact reverse and that the season ended in March, 2020. Now suddenly you think reliable sources should be used instead of your own opinion that because the fires have stopped, therefore the season is over.

It looks to me like you are putting ego ahead of a very long consensus here, for no good reason that I can see[7] - Ego? Really? Go read the userpage of the editor you made that comment to. There is a line on it that should stick out. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:34, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Paid contributions declaration"? I've taken the liberty of adding diffs to your cherries picked above, so that context is visible. See the first post in this thread for an explanation of my views changing as I looked deeper into the matter of Australian fire seasons, and our many years of reporting. The state-based emergency pages used as evidence that bushfires continue always have a bushfire or two listed. Over a whole continent, they never stop, a point made by the Bureau of Meteorology and the Bushfire CRC in their graphic showing that bushfires in Australia never reach zero, they just come to a minimum around May and June. Both of these links were raised in discussion on the page.

The fact that the out-of-the-ordinary killing fires were off the front pages, the news reports turned to other matters, the two months of choking smoke blowing through my house and half of Eastern Australia had stopped, the fires no longer glowed in the dark at night in the hills around Canberra, and the heavy water bomber at the airport has remained idle for a solid month of flooding rain and regrowth helped my opinion along. But I am grateful for your snarky analysis of a few phrases plucked out of context and misleadingly described. Kind of illustrates my point, really. You do see this, I trust.

But again, this isn't about me or anyone else. I'm no saint. I can be a cranky, annoying, pedantic, and yes, snarky curmudgeon. There can't be too many on Wikipedia with a longer history of arseholery than me. Jimbo himself kicked my irritating bum off Wikipedia somewhere back around 2005 and he was right to do so.

What I have come to realise is that Wikipedia itself is a treasure, and what makes it extra-good is that procedures have evolved to keep a large and diverse community creating gold without strangling each other. Jimbo, for all of his God-King status, very rarely intervenes. There's certainly no top-down direction in anything but the broadest terms, and everything has evolved through discussion and consensus.

My question remains. What is the position of admins on implementing the vision of Jimbo linked to above? He describes something extraordinary as being a guiding principle of the project, and that principle is love. My own field of philosophy literally means "love of wisdom", and we all cheer at the thought of schoolchildren in Africa having better access to Wikipedia, which is chock-full of knowledge and wisdom. How are admins and indeed base-grade editors dealing with the concept of love as a guiding force? From what I can see, it seems to be a challenge for many. I think, if the first instinct of a Wikipedian is to aim a kick at whoever is irritating them, they aren't acting out of love. --Pete (talk) 16:21, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Um, while I can't speak for Mr rnddude, I very much doubt it's the paid contribution disclosure to which he's trying to draw your attention, but the fact that you're claiming you know more than a New South Wales firefighter about fires in New South Wales. To reiterate what I said above, when you think every other person on the site is being unreasonable and every other person on the site thinks you're being unreasonable, you might want to stop and think that maybe the problem is you, not everyone else.

I can't speak for any other admin, but the vision of this particular admin on "implementing the vision of Jimbo" is that I couldn't care less what his vision is or isn't. While Jimmy does for historic reasons retain a seat on the WMF board, he's been detached from the actual operation of Wikipedia for years, and the mix of tendentious editing and whitewashing the biographies of people he met at parties that constitutes his edit history over the past decade would have long since got any other editor banned. I give whatever he happens to come out with on any given day considerably less credence than I give the opinions of a new week-old editor, given that the new editor is actually involved with Wikipedia whereas there's no evidence Jimmy has the slightest interest in anything that takes place on this site any more, provided the paid after-dinner speaker gigs keep flowing. Jimmy Wales is in no position whatsoever to lecture anyone on "civility" (disagree with him and he's as uncivil as they come), but even if one does accept the argument that civility is the key to Wikipedia, as an outside observer who to the best of my knowledge has never interacted with you in any way it's fairly clear that the only person being uncivil on that bushfire talkpage is you. ‑ Iridescent 17:26, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And there I was thinking that Jimmy Wales was "a good Wikipedian who deeply respects and defends NPOV and policy based reasons to do things in all cases". Phil Bridger (talk) 17:54, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[8][9][10][11][12]. ‑ Iridescent 18:29, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. It's a pity that our dear co-founder doesn't have the gift described by Robert Burns. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pete, there's nobody here who can tell you 'what admins think' about anything - there isn't a controlling body, we don't speak with one voice, we're just a bunch of volunteers with disparate opinions and areas of expertise. Since it is not possible for anybody to answer your question, and this isn't really the place for philosophical musings anyway, are you happy for this to be closed now, or is there something specific you want to ask? GirthSummit _(blether) 18:15, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just respond to Iridescent, if I may, who has done me the courtesy of following the link I provided, and actually putting some thought into his response.

Am I really claiming I know more than a New South Wales firefighter about fires in New South Wales? I am unaware that I made any such claim. Perhaps a diff would be in order? Now that you have raised that notion, I reject it utterly. In any case, neither Bidgee nor myself is of the slightest use to Wikipedia as a source. That idea got knocked on the head long ago.

Nor am I claiming that Jimbo the man and the sentiments he expressed in that speech referenced above are cut from the same fabric. The vision expressed seemed to draw a positive response from his listeners, as has the project he founded, very little of which he had a direct hand in laying out. How many policy documents has he edited? A quick look at the earliest years of the WP:5P policies shows no involvement at all.

And yet, here we are, spending our free time on a shared vision. Extraordinary.

Phil Bridger, well put! I think the point that Burns was making is that none of us has that particular view, but of course you had a twinkle in your eye as you said it. In any case, this particular wretch is not claiming any great gifts of charm or grace. I'm still waiting for Iridescent to establish the uniqueness he claims I enjoy, but I suspect that I might be waiting a while for that diff. I am not yet so bound up in self-abuse that I cannot detect stress and anger in the words of others, even if some suggest that this wretch is blind to it in himself.

Girth, you'll forgive me restoring the indent your comments rightly own. It seemed to me that you were unconsciously suggesting that the comments of others were not worth responding to. Yes, of course there is no Admin King, nor any one voice beyond what wikipolicy gives us. If you yourself have no answer to the question, and wish to hurry along to the next puddle with your mop and bucket, that's fine. I came here seeking wisdom, and it seems I have come to the wrong shop for that, brother. --Pete (talk) 20:58, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Skyring, to be honest, it looks to me like you're just trolling a this point. Please add my voice to the list of those telling you that you appear not to know how to interact civilly with others. GirthSummit _(blether) 22:05, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How much lack of clue needs to be demonstrated to warrant remedial action? It would helpful if anyone had time to check the contributions of Skyring (talk · contribs) (Pete) and work out if a WP:NOTHERE or WP:CIR block is required to allow other editors to work without distractions such as those shown above. Johnuniq (talk) 02:14, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Skyring has been a disruptive editor literally for 15 years (the "I demand that Wikipedia treat my personal opinions as fact, and I'll keep posting walls of text until you agree" attitude we're seeing here could have come straight from the 2005 arb case that originally got him banned). That said, he hasn't been blocked since 2016, and unless something is really egregious I wouldn't want to block out of the blue (he might have construed the lack of formal complaints recently as an indication that Wikipedia's culture had shifted and the way he was acting was now considered acceptable), and (his ramblings on this thread aside) I don't see any obvious problems since this thread started. IMO this thread is sufficient to constitute a warning (he can hardly claim he's not aware of it); if there's any subsequent disruption, that's the time to drop the banhammer. ‑ Iridescent 08:45, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is amazing, thank you. I have encountered Skyring but have forgotten where. I had not seen his outstanding block log and did not know that an Arbcom case had been required. I guess you're right but we admins need to stop those who can argue ad infinitum from wasting the time of other editors and action might be needed in the future. Johnuniq (talk) 09:05, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Giving credit where it's due. Skyring/Pete has (AFAIK) shown restraint in the last 3 to 4 years (since an Rfc on the matter), concerning the Australian head of state topic. A topic he was quite passionate about. GoodDay (talk) 14:46, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The three thousand bytes Pete left at User talk:Girth Summit today had made my head spin as about 2/3 of it is philosophical/historical musings. Ultimately I think the last 1/3 is fair enough on the ADMINACCT front but also really suggests that this thread acting as a warning has not quite sunk in yet. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:01, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be dealing with an IP-hopping vandal, see [13] and Special:Contributions/2600:1008:B04B:4A75:D875:E4CD:A0D6:F9B7. I need to step away from my computer for a bit right now so I can't investigate much further, but it would be great if an admin comfortable with range blocks could look into this case. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:03, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those IP addressed can not be contained by a single range block. However, it would be better to have just blocked the WP:/64 here, rather than having to make two separate blocks. ST47 (talk) 01:20, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ST47, noted, thanks. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:31, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I would like to report a backlog of requests on AfC participants talk which has been existing for 5 days now. I hope someone will clear the backlog there. Thank you! -- JavaHurricane 05:32, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's normal, as I'm usually able to get to them about once a week. I will be clearing the list either today or tomorrow. Please be patient. Primefac (talk) 13:01, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Primefac, what JavaHurricane really means is please hurry up and get to me because I'm second on the list I somewhat disingenuously just asked about. Although if the criteria were changed to Must have 500 non-automated edits, they'd never get it (94%, anyone?!) Happy days. ——SN54129 13:20, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Serial Number 54129, not really. I was concerned about the backlog as I thought that the list was checked every day. @Primefac:, thanks for your help! JavaHurricane 13:37, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some weeks it is checked that often, but I had a competition, two days of conferences, and three different tests to grade this week, so it's been put a little on the back burner. Primefac (talk) 13:41, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ckatz is not currently active. Their user page - which is protected - transcludes {{busy2}}, which is being deleted in favour of {{busy}}.

Please therefore edit that page, to replace:

{{busy2|I'll check in when I can, but please understand that circumstances may create a significant delay between when you post and when I am able to respond. Thank you for your patience and understanding.|align=center|color scheme= blue}}

with:

{{busy|message=This user is busy in [[real life]] and may not respond swiftly to queries. If you have an urgent matter, it may be best to [[Special:EmailUser/Ckatz|use email]]. I'll check in when I can, but please understand that circumstances may create a significant delay between when you post and when I am able to respond. Thank you for your patience and understanding.|image=Crystal Clear app xclock.svg}}

-- Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:58, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't the original just be substituted/preserved on their page? I am not sure I would suddenly want people encouraged to email me if I didn't include it in the original message I left on my page.Slywriter (talk) 17:26, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Slywriter, check the user page in question. The text "This user is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries. If you have an urgent matter, it may be best to..." is part of the boilerplate in {{busy2}}, but not {{busy}}, so it must, in fact, be added manually to preserve the original message. Moaz786 (talk to me or see what I've been doing) 17:31, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See it now. Didn't realize already customized to include email language. Objection withdrawn.Slywriter (talk) 17:40, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Johnuniq (talk) 09:10, 8 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for addressing this, I've just noticed the issue and I appreciate you having fixed it. Cheers. Ckatz^talk 01:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please protect my userpage (semi) for about 30 minutes? Thanks. (For testing purposes)

Besides, I would like for the users 2600:1003:B117:3265:471F:98E1:7998:AE62, 2600:1003:B101:F1E1:54AA:7C56:FA6F:3408, 2600:1003:B112:6924:6FB6:4406:F7E1:C67A, 2600:1003:b116:1548:2827:564e:791e:268, 2600:1003:B12F:413B:639:8DD2:9DE4:60D6' edits to be revision-deleted. They were grossly insulting. Thanks. tLoM (The Lord of Math) (Message) 07:21, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, The Lord of Math, I've protected your userpage as requested. If the protection expires before you log in, feel free to re-request for a longer period of time. I cannot do anything to edits by those IP addresses, since they've never edited your userpage; aside from edits you've made, the only edits in your userpage's history have been when two people moved the page and when I semiprotected it. Nyttend (talk) 23:10, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Nauriya (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Nauriya is asking the community to overturn a site ban:

Its been more than one and half years since I am blocked from Wikipedia. Community had a lengthy discussion on my conduct at this very platform and I accepted their decision for my mistakes and stayed away from any disruption, dispute, or sock-puppetry. I took this much time to understand this platform further, although, a member since 2013, I was only interested in one medium - arts and media. I used this account since then and made memorable time and edits with it, which gave me pure joy. Wikipedia, at a time was my only activity and it consumed me inside out. I was all over the place with my copyrights issues and other mistakes, but in the end I can only learn from them and move forward with understanding. I can not undo or erase my doings but can only ask those, in whose hands authorities are given, and I am asking for a last chance. I have taken this period to rehabilitate myself in terms of a better knowledge for the rules and regulations that runs this platform. I didn't had the courage to appeal this unblock earlier ever after the due "six month" period of limitation, as I wanted to give myself more time to think, what I was involved with and how my conduct was viewed as wrong and disruptive. All of what was happened is in the discussion already and I don't want to dwell onto that but I will take this opportunity to appeal the community and admins to consider my request with utmost sincerity and my honest acknowledgement of mistakes into your account. This is indeed my last chance, and I am making sure to try my best to prove to you that I no longer intend to repeat those mistakes, ever again. I am clear what I am asking for and I will make sure, what happened, will never happen again. I assure you, or I wish I could show you that I have come without any agenda, and this is not a planned scheme with any ill intention of being disruptive and dishonest again. This is all I have to say. I have kept my options open for all the possibilities and as much as I am desperate to come back, I will respect any decision made, without any question. Thank you very much for taking your time to hear out this request. Nauriya, Let's talk - 15:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I didn't see anything obvious in a sock check. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:52, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, but willing to reconsider - I'm not sure I see understanding of what got them blocked - I see all over the place with my copyrights issues and better knowledge for the rules and regulations that runs this platform, and a couple "I won't repeat my mistakes," but still missing the explicit "here's what I did that was wrong, here's what I will change in my behavior" that I expect from a good unblock request. I'm willing to reconsider if I see Nauriya follow up with something like that. ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 13:09, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• As the CCI guy, I'll have to think about this. Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Nauriya is still pretty large. Money emoji💵^{Talk💸Help out at CCI!} 14:37, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They also had a now closed CCI under a different username: Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Faizanali.007Money emoji💵^{Talk💸Help out at CCI!} 14:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I am only seeing what happened, but nothing about what got them blocked and how they would avoid problems given they "don't want to dwell onto that" after all. Shashank5988 (talk) 17:25, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• (Non-administrator comment) Are non-admins allowed/supposed to post an oppose/support opinion for unblocks on an administrator noticeboard? I always thought that if you did, you had to preface your comment with at least a "non-administrator" disclaimer. I could be completely wrong,and this is not intended against the two users who have posted, I am simply curious. Thanks all, Puddleglum^2.0_{(How's my driving?)} 19:04, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Puddleglum2.0, um...well...nobody's complained yet! My understanding is that non-admins are welcome to contribute to these unblock discussions since they represent community consensus, not just administrator consensus. I usually don't add the prefix unless I think it's important to be clear that I'm not an admin (usually if I'm addressing a non-admin posting to the board and don't want them to think I speak with administrator power backing it). I think the admins who frequent this board recognize my username by now and know to ignore me without me adding the "non-admin" disclaimer. ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 19:12, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  (edit conflict) Yes, you're welcome to comment here. Appeals of community sanctions are presented here for discussion by all interested editors, not just administrators. You can use the nacc template for this purpose but it's not required. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:18, 10 March 2020 (UTC),[reply]

OK, thanks Ivanvector and Creffpublic! (Or Creffett, not sure what's connected to what...) That makes sense, thanks again. Puddleglum^2.0_{(How's my driving?)} 19:20, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Puddleglum2.0, you can ping either one of me - I'll see it regardless. ^creffpublic _{a creffett franchise} (talk to the boss) 19:32, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I continue to suspect the motivations of the original proposers of the ban, particularly in light of certain off-wiki harassment which is currently ongoing involving some of the participants, but nonetheless there were valid concerns raised about Nauriya's editing. In the original discussion I suggested that any unban process should include an indefinite revocation of autopatrolled and an indefinite ban on all image uploads. Nauriya's patrolling and content review userrights were removed before the ban discussion concluded, so that part is moot. I sort of agree with creffpublic that we need to see more self-awareness here, but I am not outright opposing. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:18, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Response from Nauriya:

  : @NinjaRobotPirate: Since I can not edit at ANI, if I may, I want to say that my request clearly says that I am sorry for my mistakes and I will not follow the same path, as I did before. Also, all other accounts are not mine, this has been discussed and confirmed in previous discussions. Prior to 2013, I did have accounts, as I was an IP exempt because I was in a place where all of sites were blocked, so I did made mistakes because I was very immature editor at that time and it was also cleared by admins. After 2013 I never created another account, I did change the name though. Thats it! Nauriya, Let's talk - 19:20, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

  moved here by NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 22:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Did anyone bring up sockpuppetry? This comment is adding some unnecessary confusion to the situation. It was established prior to or during the 2018 ban discussion that Nauriya was using that account after they had been blocked in 2013 with a different account. I don't think it was conclusively established that Faizanali.007 was their former account or just a very similar account. The investigation was hampered by the filer being part of a group of editors very obviously filing multiple SPIs and other administrative reports against their enemies in a broad India-Pakistan editing conflict, wasting admin time to try to get some sanction to stick against their opponents. There was some checkuser stuff in the 2018 SPI but I wasn't around for it and I'm not going to try to comment on it. There was a discussion in the 2018 SPI in which several admins (courtesy ping Bbb23 and Abecedare) discussed Nauriya's history, and determined (my paraphrasing) that although Nauriya was technically evading a block, they went five years without getting into the trouble which led to the block, and had become a productive contributor over those five years, and so blocking them for long-stale block evasion was unproductively punitive. Nauriya was effectively granted amnesty for the past block evasion. On the other hand, several admins and other users in the 2018 ban discussion took the banned means banned approach, particularly in light of Fram's investigation revealing that Nauriya was in fact still breaking copyright rules right up to the start of that discussion, and so the reason for forgiving their block evasion was moot. The filer of the SPI and the ban proposal insisted without evidence that Nauriya was committing copyright violations throughout those five years; maybe CCI got to the bottom of that, I don't know.

  Are you confused by all this? Good. My only point here is that this appeal discussion should consider the circumstances of the 2018 ban, and not get into the weeds of the weird maybe-sockpuppetry history, because nobody really knows what happened there and there is no evidence that Nauriya has used more than one account since 2013. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As a (or really the) person whose been working on the CCI, they definitely committed copyright violations during that time period; see Rozee.pk and Rafaqat Ali Khan.Money emoji💵^{Talk💸Help out at CCI!} 17:44, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(responding to ping) Ivanvector summarizes the socking and proxying situation well. Anyone interested can read my and Bbb23's July 2018 summary at SPI, which contains links to some relevant posts. Looking at the SPI and the Sep 2018 ban-discussion will also reveal what Ivanvector means by "suspect the motivations of the original proposers of the ban", although that of course does not excuse Nauriya's proven copyvios etc.

All that said, the socking, proxying, and mixed-motivations-of-some-accusers are a messy sideshow IMO, and I would recommend judging this ban appeal based upon Nauriya's copyvio history and the chance that the problems will recur in the ban is lifted. Abecedare (talk) 15:45, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ivanvector, you should know by now that Nauriya had admitted that he had socked as Faizanali.007, Salarsikandar.81 and Tabraiz.18 only after the SPI was filed.[14] Unfortunately he got away from this sockpuppetry but was warned that any more socking or copyright violations will result in a block.[15] ANI was opened only after it became obvious that Nauriya was continuing his copyright violations for weeks and pretending to be perfect as the very first post in the ANI thread reveals. Lorstaking (talk) 07:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• For your consideration: @Money emoji, Shashank5988, Creffpublic, Puddleglum2.0, Ivanvector, and Abecedare: et al. who might be interested, since Nauriya was originally blocked for copyright violations, I thought it imperative to ask them a few questions about copyright stuff:

*Query: Hi Nauriya, since you were originally blocked for copyright violations, I'm wondering if you could please answer a few questions. They might be a bit tough, so you should probably think about them and answer to the best of your ability:

1. What is a copyright?
2. What sort of content is considered copyrighted?
3. How do you know if material is copyrighted or free to use?
4. If you are unclear on some of the nuances of Wikipedia's rules about including copyrighted materials, where at Wikipedia can you find answers to those questions? (For example, specific Wikipedia policy/guideline pages or places in the community where you could ask for help. You don't have to list everything, I just want to see if you know where to find answers to questions that might come up.)

I may have follow-up questions depending on your responses. We can move my questions and your responses to the relevant AN discussion should you choose to answer. Thank you and regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Answers:

1. As per my understanding, a copyright is a legal right of the individual/owner of their intellectual property that prohibits anyone other than the original owner of the unauthorised use and distribution of their works.
2. All creative content is considered copyrighted per Berne Convention. However, any material/work released to public domain, becomes license free, or in case where copyright is explicitly detailed and disclaimed.
3. Since Wikipedia, uses links/references to the content written/used in its articles - any material/text or work that is a simple copy-and-paste from websites, is considered copyrighted. All other works on Wikipedia are free to use, if in compliance with CC-BY-SA and if co-licensed then GFDL or where restrictions and sanctions are applied.
4. If one is having difficulty in understanding the Wikipedia copyright policies, we can approach WP:C for understanding the basic terminologies. If one want to know how to use copyrighted content on Wikipedia, they can refer to WP:COPYREQ and related WP:CV101. In addition, WP:CRA can serve as an assistance to user(s) looking for brief overview. The most important one in my view is knowing WP:COPYVIO and in my case where I was wrong, one must know how can they add this image to Wikipedia? / can they copy-paste this text into Wikipedia?. And for help WT:CP, WP:CQ are helpful or we can find a relevant noticeboard to approach for help.

Thank you @Cyphoidbomb for taking your time out and being so considerate. And yes sure, thats what I am here for, to answer any question I can in order to show that I am willing to abide by the policies of this platform. And ask for help first this time, if I will face any problem. Nauriya, Let's talk - 8:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC) If anyone wants to format the above so that it looks nicer, please do. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support unblock The answers above give me confidence. Thanks you Cyphoidbomb. Puddleglum^2.0_{(How's my driving?)} 15:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A little more elaboration: initially I was going to support based only on WP:AGF (which I think should be used much more with unblock requests like this) and WP:ROPE. The answers have strengthened my opinion and I think confirmed that this editor has edited in good faith, even if they were wrongngr. (and they have admitted they were wrong). I think there is no end to forgiveness, and that's why I've chosen to support. (Although I wouldn't be opposed to a topic ban on Pakistan-related topics that Lorstaking proposes.) Thanks, Puddleglum^2.0_{(How's my driving?)} 16:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm going to go with support here too. The answers are a bit weak but going in a promising self-aware direction. I'm sure there will be enough users scrutinizing Nauriya's edits as to head off any future copyright problems, for which a fresh block is sure to ensue. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:30, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Not all of the problems have been addressed. Given one of the concern included meatpuppetry as Abecedare pointed above, the unblock appeal made above and this recent response regarding copyright violations makes it obvious for anybody that these both messages are written by two different people. In the light of such dubiousness and incomplete addressal I would oppose unblock. There were also problems with article creations by Nauriya, one of which included repeated recreation of Wasi Shah. Maybe an alternative solution would be to unblock with an indefinite topic ban from anything related to Pakistan but then I am not sure if Nauriya will edit anything else. Lorstaking (talk) 07:43, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They are the same users who did vandalism. I attached the evidences. Thank you so much.

• Бмхүн (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 47.244.55.34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Evidences = [16], [17], [18] --175.223.37.88 (talk) 04:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, i moved it to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism.--175.223.37.88 (talk) 04:32, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IP; you do realise this is English Wiki? we cant deal with any matters from other Wikis, including Korean Wikipedia. Nightfury 09:01, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A group of editors is completely blanking the viewpoint that the South Korean president and his government mishandled the outbreak. Reliable sources were cited, but they blank it out nonetheless.[19][20] Koraskadi (talk) 07:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a content dispute, which aren't settled on this page. You need to follow the dispute resolution process, particularly discussing the change on the article talk page with other people. These edits were reverted because they were felt to constitute original research, I have no idea whether that's correct but in principle it's a legitimate concern - Wikipedia shouldn't contain original research, even if sourced. Hut 8.5 07:49, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the concerns raised with the content, there is also the issue of Koraskadi reverting five times in under 24 hours despite a warning, for which the user is now blocked. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:55, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kasper2006, Lugnuts: this convinces me Nicola Mayr speaks German, though it doesn't say so explicitly. 2601:648:8202:96B0:54D9:2ABB:1EDB:CEE3 (talk) 03:15, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bbb23 has expressed concerns on my talk page that I have conducted bad closures. I believe these concerns are expressed in good-faith, and concede the possibility I may have goofed. I attempted to discuss with them to see how I could address the concerns, however apparently I came across the wrong way and they do not wish to discuss with me further hence I submit my actions to the community for review, and censure as needed. I didn't do this earlier because I thought maybe I was just tired, and too in the moment to understand the concerns, but reading now hours later I'm still uncertain if I'm understanding correctly, I think in part we were just talking past each other. It's also possible I'm just dense today.

The conduct specifically singled out for censure is this apparently poorly thought out diff. However now rereading it seems the concern was with all of my closures.

These are the informal discussions I have closed that are now archived (1 2 3 4 5 6). They still look sound to me, but apparently my judgement is in question at this point. If the community deems them improper I would ask for a 24 hour grace period to self-revert as a courtesy.

I also earlier closed a formal discussion here. I know that per WP:NACIP this is strictly speaking not allowed I guess my though process was that if a rule prevents me from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, I should ignore it. Didn't seem at the time like there was any reason to leave the work for someone else, and it still looks like a good close to me.

Finally I also closed a separate informal discussion that is not yet archived above. Given the greater urgency for non-archived threads I have no objection if it is immediately reverted for being a bad close, @ToBeFree: given your involvement there, you more than anyone have a right to object to any problems with it.

Concern was also raised with problems with civility, wikilawyering and blockable offenses in these two discussions (1 2). I guess I should have been a bit less aggressive, in hind sight telling an experienced user where to find TFD is located can be seen as condescending, but that wasn't my intent. Likewise no one likes to be reverted I could have phrased my reverts in a less condescending way perhaps, but I believe my actions in reverting were fully within policy, and mild as those things go. I have no objection to other users presenting further evidence of any misconduct so long as it only addresses my actions and not those of anyone else, I am willing to be held accountable for all of my decisions. If my actions were improper or I otherwise failed to meet the high standards expected of any editor whether an IP or registered I will willingly accept any sanction the community deems appropriate. If any deeper examination of my conduct is desired all of the recent edits from this IP are mine 9 MAR+.

Finally, If any I have offended I am sorry, cut me some slack I'm human, I make the occasional mistake, please continue to engage with me even when I'm difficult, it's the only way anyone can really learn, thank you. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I’m typically very pro-IP editing, but I’m skeptical from a purely pragmatic standpoint on closures. You’re a spectrum IPv6, which means you’ll be the same /64 for the next decade or so as Spectrum from legacy Time Warner Cable is probably the most static ISP in the US. That makes it easy for people who get IPv6 to track and hold accountable, but more difficult for people who don’t understand that you can just type /64 into a contributions page to see all the contribs. This functionally amounts to unintentional evasion of scrutiny, which in anything admin-esque (which I’d lump closes with) easy and clear accountability is key. From a pragmatic standpoint, I advise against IPs closing things, even if minor. Even though there’s a fair amount of stickiness, even at this individual IPv6 address beyond the /64, the long nature of the v6 makes it difficult for people to associate with an individual, and also contributes to this. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:12, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  TonyBallioni, also, accounts are free, conceal your IP address and thus geolocation information, and provide a completely stable venue for interaction. So... well... just register one. Guy (help!) 14:40, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Haven't looked at the closures yet but I recommend you move this discussion to WP:AN. That seems like a more suitable forum to get constructive feedback than ANI. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:28, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Agree with Liz. This is a matter better suited for WP:AN. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:39, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Actually, I just decided to just do it myself. @Liz, Johnuniq, TonyBallioni, Bbb23, and ToBeFree: Sorry for the inconvenience. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:45, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Perfectly fine decision, thanks. Currently busy reading the walls of text :) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm also happy to positvely interact with IPs and have spent considerable time working in cooperation with some IPs. However, my monitoring of some error tracking categories shows that lots of IPs are a menace in that they corrupt good information and it's only when they make a mistake with certain templates that I notice and revert. We all see lots of bad IP edits and there is no way for the OP's IP to be labeled as an exception. Actually, there is a way—register an account. It's only obstinancy that prevents that and IPs should not close discussions because it wastes time when other editors need to investigate what's going on and decide whether the IP close should be reverted or changed. Johnuniq (talk) 06:07, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• "I know that per WP:NACIP this is strictly speaking not allowed I guess my though process was that if a rule prevents me from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, I should ignore it." That may appears to be how IAR is meant to be used on the surface but certainly not in its spirit. By its nature, IAR is meant for exceptional cases and meant to be invoked rarely. Someone may have edited for several years and never had cause to invoke IAR and that's fine. But if you feel you need to invoke IAR not once, not twice but repeatedly and against "a strong, near--unanimous consensus", a warning and an advice, then that's definitely not fine and something is wrong somewhere.
  Thryduulf? once put it brilliantly on what might be wrong in such situations. He said something like (not exactly, but quite close); "If you find yourself frequently or regularly in need of invoking IAR to break a rule; then either of two things must be involved: Either the rule you're breaking does not make sense and so should be changed (since the need to override it via IAR is repeatedly coming up), or you're well wrong and you should stop hiding behind IAR to do that thing" [in this case against the clear consensus linked above]. So it can be seen clearly what's wrong here. In your case, you'll need to invoke IAR 20 times so as to close 20 discussions; you'll need to disregard a clear consensus everytime so as to close any discussion; that's clearly not how IAR is meant to be. Had it been so then there'd be no need for any rule since we can just disregard them all the time continuously.
  As far as as I know, that consensus has never been challenged nor superseded, so it still stands. If you disagree with it (as it seems), you can start a new discussion to overturn it, or even more simply follow this advice or heed the earlier warning, but you can't just continue to disregard it and claim you're always invoking IAR. Reliance on invoking IAR to do things against consensus (especially in an indefinite fashion like you want to) is clearly against WP:CON policy and certainly not proper use of IAR but something else, not sure what to call it. – Ammarpad (talk) 10:41, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That quote of mine (now an essay at Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is for uncommon situations) was written in the context of speedy deletions, but it certainly seems applicable here. Thryduulf (talk) 13:13, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm very strongly against IP editors closing discussions, as a simple matter of accountability. Yes, IP editors are welcome editors and I have no problem with WP:ANYONECANEDIT, but the problem particularly with closing discussions is it is basically impossible to communicate with editors on dynamic IPv4s (e.g. 123.45.67.89), and technically impossible to communicate at all with editors on IPv6 /64 ranges (e.g. the OP here). Therefore, should one seek to clarify or challenge an IP's close, you cannot contact the closer. You can leave a message on a talk page for an IPv4 and hope that the closer is still assigned to that IP when they log in next (possible, but you can't know), and if the closer is an IPv6, IP ranges don't have talk pages at all. The ISP here seems to be an exception, but in most cases one editor will appear to jump around to multiple discrete addresses within the /64 range, sometimes from one edit to the next, because that's how IPv6 is commonly implemented. But again, you can't know. I didn't review the closes here in much detail, it's the accountability piece that bothers me. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:02, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• It sounds like the easy solution would be for the IP user to register an account. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D, is there a reason you haven't done that yet? -- Tavix ^(talk) 13:25, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excepting the two most obvious reasons in the world for anyone not doing anything, viz, not having to and not wanting to. ——SN54129 15:03, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. My buddy Spectrum here is a classic case of a well meaning and established IP user. If they want someone willing to co-sign their NACs to continue being able to do them, I'd be more than happy to offer myself for the task. I am fully aware of that would mean I "own" the close, but I am equally sure that Spectrum would allow me to amend it as necessary in any case. (Non-administrator comment) –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I agree that IPs should not be closing discussions. The first sentence of WP:NAC says, according to Wikipedia policy and convention any registered editor in good standing may close a discussion. As I understand the setup here, you have a long-term static IPv6/64, but the bottom 64 bits are dynamic. So, there's no reliable way to contact you, which means there's no way to discuss your close, as you're required to do per WP:ADMINACCT. I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but this is a case where the good of the project needs to outweigh your desire to perform NACs. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:13, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• On the broad question of IP editing, I am of TB's mind. However, on the specific matter of closing, no, they should not be doing so and we should not be proxying—even if we think we know the individual on the other end of the ethernet cable. ——SN54129 16:19, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Some of these closures are really just housekeeping, e.g. here a page was nominated for deletion and an admin speedily deleted it without closing the deletion discussion. I don't have a problem with IPs closing that kind of thing which will never be controversial but in general it isn't a good idea for IPs to be closing discussions. IAR is designed to allow rules to be short circuited in exceptional cases where there's a good reason, it certainly isn't intended to be used routinely. To be honest if you want to have a substantial editing career here then you ought to sign up for an account. Hut 8.5 19:17, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• First of all, thank you very much for the feedback request. I wasn't aware of WP:NACIP and the RFC leading to it, but I can understand the reasons for it, as also explained in more detail by TonyBallioni above. This feedback request – for all the closures so far, but not necessarily for the future – alleviates the main concern, a lack of scrutiny. A thread at WP:AN is pretty much a textbook example of "scrutiny", and there is no reason to believe that the result of this discussion would remain unread or ignored.

  Regarding IncidentArchive1031#AIV_backlogged_again, which I have been pinged about: I was very happily surprised to see that fine closure. No comment on other closures. With a heavy heart, I agree with Ammarpad and Thryduulf about the scope of WP:IAR.

  Best regards and thanks for asking. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:31, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of creating an account now or ever, I'm philosophically opposed to the idea. The internet should be free and open for anyone to use without registering for anything period. All edits should stand or fall on their own merits and not those of the people behind them. I appreciate the very kind offer above to co-sign my closes, however a key intent in making those closes was to reduce workload for others, if someone is required to cosign that defeats the purpose, I except only existing closes where adding a co-signature would be less work then having me revert it and someone else close. Finally, any long-term plans about what to do in the future are likely moot as this place probably won't be available for anyone to do any editing in a fairly short amount of time. I'm not sure if I will continue to edit on the English wikipedia from elsewhere, as I'm still undecided if I have really done any good in the long-view. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 16:44, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also it is not just the /64 that is static, as with many hardwired configurations this IP itself is very static, it has held for months as far as I know it will only change if someone pulls out the ethernet cable for a few minutes, or the power goes out. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 16:52, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You used 2604:2000:8FC0:4:617F:E9A7:AF1C:4546 (talk · contribs · count) but haven't since December 2019. You must've pulled out the cable. You shouldn't do anything you're "philosophically opposed" to. any long-term plans about what to do in the future are likely moot as this place probably won't be available for anyone to do any editing in a fairly short amount of time What "place", and why?--Bbb23 (talk) 19:31, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make things easy discussion continued here. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All edits should stand or fall on their own merits

I'm afraid reality doesn't work that way, as individual behavior is part of the merits behind an edit. Hence WP:COI, WP:PAID, and other issues we've run into repeatedly over the years. It also becomes impossible to have a collegial atmosphere when one cannot identify if the person they're communicating with is the same person they were communicating with yesterday. User accounts aren't perfect, but they're the best compromise for an environment like this. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:14, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make things easy discussion continued here. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Technical comment - the thing that's causing the last 64 bits of your IP to change is either IPv6 privacy extensions or your OS's MAC randomizer (and is presumably set to only change the MAC/IP when making a "new" connection). creffett (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will reply to the above on your talk pages because I don't want to seem to derail the thread with off-topic stuff, however no objection if content is moved back here. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D 20:14, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Regarding, All edits should stand or fall on their own merits, it's not so much that we want to judge the quality of an action based on the reputation of the performer, it's that we need to be able to contact the performer, possibly a significant amount of time later. For example, earlier today I was queried about an action I had performed over a year ago. This is quite common, and an important part of how the project runs. Having stable account names makes that possible. -- RoySmith (talk) 22:05, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just to make things easy discussion continued here. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I responded on your talk page, again so things don't go too off-topic, however no objection if content is moved back here. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You asked if IPs should be closing discussions. Numerous people have told you the same thing: No, they shouldn't. You've continued to push back on this. Please just accept the answer that you've been given, and it's getting close to the point where it's disruptive. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: That's not the intent of my replies on anyone's talk page. If that had been the intent I would have responded here as on topic instead. That might partially be due to confusion about threading the way I read this the comments above my initial reply are directly addressing the concern, while those below are touching upon more tangential issues. Of course, if you don't want to engage in any such off-topic discussion I do not object if you archive, blank, or otherwise indicate the discussion is over. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 03:45, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also so there's no confusion, I knew what the outcome of this discussion would be before it started [21], which is why I have not offered up much of a direct defense, however I am interested in higher level discussions about the extent to which a persons motives matter in assessing arguments, or if it is possible to build a wiki with limited means of communicating with people across time. And for the record my initial assessments are "very little" and "yes", but who knows my mind may be changed. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Since
  a) The original question has been answered (multiple times);
  b) The asker has acknowledged that, anyway, they knew what the answer would be before they asked it,
  c) This is not the place for a philosophical disquisition upon the meta-nature of crowdfunded knowledge bases,
  Perhaps this thread can be closed. I'd suggest that all interested parties migrate to the IP's talk page, where the discussion can be continued. (Well, that is until either someone pulls the router plug again, or the hostel gets turned into Caesars Palace.) ——SN54129 15:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No objection, I do ask the closer consider the offer to co-sign the existing closes above, but I am still willing to revert en masse if that is asked of me. I won't be closing anything again unless the rules change, I will also add this to our notes, for all they are worth at this point anyway, thank you. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 16:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple IPs and accounts have been making COVID-19-related, now online changes to major American universities. This seems to be a concerted effort, though I've not researched to find its source. Anyway, please keep an eye by adding major American universities to your watchlist. El_C 16:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• It's not the list that's being edited, apparently. Are there any particular pages experiencing problems, or can you show some example diffs? There could be something we can do. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:33, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I reverted this last night at Bucknell University: [22]. The problem has continued: [23] and (more obnoxiously verbosely) [24]. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Iowa State University; poor ElKevbo has been battling off vindictive Cyclones all morning. This was the sixth introduction of "online": [25]. And in the two minutes since I Ctrl-Ced that diff and typed this up, there has been another one. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 18:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmm, that's a pretty broad range of IPs doing the vandalism. Maybe an edit filter can help? (@MusikAnimal: if you're ... online ... ) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:00, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't think we should assume that this is a concerted effort. Tens of thousands of students just had their school arrangements disrupted. Most of them are spending more time online than usual. Of course a handful of them are going to make a (poor) "joke edit" to Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I don't think it's a concerted effort or sockpuppetry or anything like that. It's just the students on each campus reacting to their change in circumstances. I've protected ten such articles in the past hour or so. If I see the change to "online" has been done and reverted twice, that's enough for me: bang, semiprotection, 2 weeks. The secret for how I was able to find so many that needed protection: I found a few by other means, then I just followed User:ElKevbo around! What an outstanding job he has been doing putting out fires all day! -- MelanieN (talk) 22:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, there are so many of these (I've now protected more than 20, and I am not the only one doing it) - different people all doing the exact same thing, changing the description of the school to "online" - that maybe there is some suggestion out there, some prompt on social media, "hey, let's do this". Somewhere far beyond my ability to search it out. Anyone want to see if they can find out where this is coming from? -- MelanieN (talk) 23:04, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@MelanieN: This Reddit post caught my eye earlier just before I reverted Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and I'd imagine the same can be said for most of these other universities, but I don't know for sure. Just college students pretending to be clever. OhKayeSierra (talk) 23:49, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for finding that, OhKayeSierra! Yes, I had suspected this is being spread by sites like Reddit as well as others I've never heard of. That's one reason why I am protecting for two weeks instead of a shorter period; with this kind of egging-each-other-on, I don't think it will die out in a day or two. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

University of Pennsylvania is getting hammered and WP:RFPP hasn't gotten there yet, if anyone is able to do the honors. Thanks! - Julietdeltalima (talk) 00:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:08, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, everyone, for pulling together on this. I have not noticed any repetition of these disruptive edits today, so I can cautiously say that it looks like we're good, for now. El_C 15:48, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Coronavirus disease 2019 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

And make it indefinite if possible. The page is getting 250000 views/day, so even quickly-reverted vandalism is seen by hundreds of people. Thanks all. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 17:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked at the history, are we sure that all or even most IP edits are bad? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:59, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but this stood for six minutes. I expect if we unprotected Donald Trump, there would be a mix of good and bad edits also. Care to try? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:03, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I've done so even if it technically violates policy. This is exceptional circumstances; a page with such high visibility on a topic with so much misinformation (both malicious and good faith) swirling around is a unique case. With the kind of pageviews this is getting, if "taking zinc supplements prevents you getting it" or the like is live even for a few seconds, we're potentially putting someone's life at risk. Yes, Anyone Can Edit and all that, but we still have a duty of care to readers. ‑ Iridescent 18:18, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you, Iridescent. A rule prevented you from improving Wikipedia, so you ignored it. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  No problem at all; when the protection policy was written, we obviously didn't anticipate a situation with such a high potential for people to insert good-faith errors with potential real life consequences. AFAIK even the cesspits that are Facebook and Twitter have also started filtering coronavirus-related nonsense.

  General note to the usual self-appointed busybodies who wander around noticeboards unilaterally closing threads; don't close this one but instead let the bot archive it in the normal way once it's stale. There will potentially be objections to this action is it technically violates Wikipedia:Protection policy, and there's no point forcing anyone raising reasonable objections to start a fresh thread. ‑ Iridescent 18:27, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, Suffusion of Yellow there are over 100 coronavirus-related articles and templates so are there any others that you see subject to vandalism? I have many watchlisted but they change repeatedly over a day and I can't check every edit or verify every patient total that gets updated. A week ago, I asked if members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine could keep an eye on the subject but it has grown exponentially. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Good call, thank you. I'd agree that our obligation not to spread disinformation is greater than our obligation to be editable by anyone at this moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse protection - I don't even think this is an IAR case. There wasn't much vandalism but there was some, and of the nature that suggested there would be more, and we use protection to stop disruption - that's basically all the policy says about "when to protect". Unfortunately some of it is from confirmed accounts. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:55, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - I don't think that "some vandalism" is a particularly good protection reason but preventing people from adding medical disinformationon to the main article of an ongoing major disease outbreak which has already drawn disinformation is a good one. Worth watching the entire COVID-19 article zoo, perhaps? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:59, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The main Coronavirus page is actually getting more views. It's EC-protected, but that expires in a week. Someone should remember to enable semi-protection as soon as the EC protection is over, IMO. And maybe enable PC protection now, in case no one remembers. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• I think it was brought up at least once before, but how do people feel about community-authorized sanctions for Coronavirus? I recognize that this is more "preventing a potential problem" than "fixing an existing problem," but I only expect disruptive editing and conspiracy theory-pushing to get worse. Not a formal proposal, just a straw poll, since I've never participated in GS proposals before. creffett (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Personally I'd be against it. DS only works for intractable disputes; treat all the loons, homeopaths and Russian bots as we do any other vandals. ‑ Iridescent 20:08, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Creffett, I agree with Iridescent S Philbrick(Talk) 21:32, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Sphilbrick, Iridescent, all right, thanks for the input - that's why I asked instead of jumping straight to the proposal! creffett (talk) 21:56, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Creffett, I appreciate that your suggestion was well-intentioned, but I think starting with protection, and possibly escalating to 1RR would be better interim steps. S Philbrick(Talk) 22:57, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse protection, thanks Iridescent. There is very little chance of good information being missed because a passing IP was unable to add it, and very good reason to help keep rumor and disinformation out even if it was only present for half an hour. Johnuniq (talk) 22:25, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• This seems very sensible to me; well done all. I've marked the page as semiprotected so readers can see it. Agree that similar semiprotection for related pages might not be a bad idea, though the other two main pages already are - Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 is semiprotected until the start of April and 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic until mid-April. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:32, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose IP editors are not causing any problems. The last IP edit I saw was this edit. It was fine and perfect. Wikipedia is free for everyone. Protection should be based on real vandalism history not speculations based on page views.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  If you have any valid criticism of my protection feel free, but don't just come here and make shit up in the hope we won't notice, and if you're going to tell lies tell lies that take more than ten seconds to fact-check. The last IP edits priot to the semiprotection were both, vandalism, and the "fine and perfect" edit you cite as an example was questionable at best (unless you're seriously trying to claim that "Wuhan pneumonia" isn't genuinely used as a synonym by reputable media; if you think it's "anti-Chinese" you may want to tell the South China Morning Post and the Taiwanese Central Epidemic Command Centre). ‑ Iridescent 23:54, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse: I just wanted to add that I support page protection to add to the consensus. With a page as busy and important as this one, we shouldn't risk dissemination of false, dangerous information simply because we didn't strictly follow the letter of the law.  Bait30  ^Talk? 04:55, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse because it's too urgent and there's too much misinformation floating around for our normal processes to work well. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:26, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Endose. We have a deluge of IP's spreading misinformation on multiple Coronavirus-related articles (e.g. even this at Wuhan Institute of Virology). It is an unfortunate step to take, as we have many great contributions by IPs (and even in this area), however, things are too serious now (even the Wuhan Institute of Virology article is clocking over 20,000 hits per day), and we can't allow WP to be abused like this. Britishfinance (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• As we speak, here is another IP on the said Wuhan Institute of Virology article re-pushing a conspiracy theory about it [26]. Britishfinance (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Without going into detail on which pages should or shouldn't be protected, I think that, despite the extra work it makes, pending changes protection should at least be considered for some small number of pages where many good IP edits are being made. I know that the link to making edit requests is provided in the edit notice at the top of the page, but many otherwise constructive contributors may be discouraged from even trying when the button says view source rather than edit. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 17:08, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Even the smaller articles are edited too actively for pending changes to be effective. El_C 17:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Understood, it was just a thought, well maybe keep it in the back pocket as a possibility if not for small articles then for the tiny/obscure and tangential articles around the edges where misinformation needs to be kept out. 2604:2000:8FC0:4:68BA:3B32:8613:8B6D (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I have now semiprotected 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic by country and territory and 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States, indefinitely. El_C 16:47, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Now also semi'd 2020 coronavirus pandemic in Italy, indefinitely. El_C 17:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A little over 6 months ago, I was subject to a BLP ban arising out of some pretty cringeworthy behavior on my part (detailed here) at the conclusion of the discussion, I agreed to the imposition of an indefinite ban on BLP to be revisited in 6 months. I am unclear on how to make this request, apart from posting a new subject in the noticeboard where the ban was imposed. Help? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're in the right place, but I don't think this is your appeal. WP:GAB has helpful approaches (although it says "blocks", the same concepts apply to limited bans), or in a nutshell: you need to convince the community that lifting your restriction will not lead to further disruption. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:58, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how to do that, considering that I haven't been editing BLPs, and have been making a lot of effort to avoid those civility issues that arose before. If you disagree, then please point out what I haven't been doing that I should be doing. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Sebastian, my standard recommendation for requesting unban: show us that you know what you did wrong, tell us what you're going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. What will you do or not do when editing BLPs? Have you gotten into any disputes with any other editors in the past six months? If so, show us how you resolved it without any civility issues. creffett (talk) 20:08, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for illuminating the path, Creffett. My main problem with editing BLPs before is that I was using sources that were essentially unreliable. In retrospect, it didn't matter if they hadn't come up at RSN; I had needed to step back from the fray and devote more time to discussion when someone challenged the reliability of the sources. Furthermore, I forgot that BLPs here affect people's lives. We must be gate-keepers and ensure that only the most solid of sourcing makes it into a BLP. I had let myself forget that. After my wake-up call, I spent a lot fo time looking at our FA and GA quality BLPs to look for common threads of approach. There weren't any, except for the overriding concern that significant claims require equally significant sourcing. As well, I was made aware how I was creating a toxic and combative discussion environment that only made collaborative editing that much harder. I think that was one of the easiest parts to address; maintaining an non-personal connection to any article is a pretty solid way to not get invested in the outcome. For example, I was involved in a pretty long-term article discussion in The Mandalorian talk page about adding info to an article that I didn't think was sourced that well. Additionally, i didn't think it was that important to mention, and I was pretty much adamant that we not add it (citing different policies, guidelines and protocols). There was more than a little incivility sent my way, and I am kinda proud that I didn't return the snark in kind. I widened the circle on the discussion, which brought a lot of new eyes to the problem and a temporary compromise was found, which was really helpful in creating a more durable compromise a few weeks after that. I think its vital to point out that I didn't solve the problem; it was a collaborative effort from people on both sides of the issue. That wouldn't have been possible with a my-way-or-the-highway mindset. I had to learn how to be flexible and allow collaborative editing to occur. Honestly, I think that was the largest take-away from last September's noticeboard discussion. It hadn't mattered that I meant well. The way I had treated people before and during the dispute at the time had spent any good faith that was needed to Get Shit Done in a collaborative way. By stepping back, using BRD in a more holistic way instead of a traffic sign, the collaborative back and forth stays civil and people are more willing to work towards a common resolution. Almost all of us have used sources that were weak before; it required being willing to listen to others to help learn why they were weak. I think I'm talking in circles. Anyway, I think that the de facto intervention served to rewire how I approach my editing behavior in Wikipedia. I recognize how I screed up with BLPs and my fellow editors before, and have since then, tried to be more helpful and collaborative. Or at least, I hope I have been. What do you folks think? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:28, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. That hit pretty much everything I would want to see, and I definitely get the impression that you've learned from this experience. Support lifting of the TBAN. creffett (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that was very thoughtful. Support, in consequence. ——SN54129 22:31, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm writing with regards to edits on the page Ashokan (film director). Another user Bvatsal61 is persistently reverting edits made to the page without any explanation on the basis of promotional spam. He has done so multiple times despite attempts by me and other users to undo his reverts. I do not wish to engage in an edit war with him but this seems to be looming ahead. The information provided on the page may seem uncited but this level of citation is fairly normal within the domain that the subject mentioned in the page exists in ie film directors. References for this person's work exist in the rolling credits of a film. Because many of these films have release dates preceding the advent of the internet, it is hard to provide URL links. As a point of comparison, please find a similar director page Thaha that shares a similar amount of citation but is up and running well with no allegations of promotional spam whatsoever. I will appreciate if you could partially block the user Bvatsal61 from accessing this particular page and making any further changes on this page. Otherwise I would sincerely appreciate your advice on what the best form of resolution would be. Thanks very much — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filmbuff91 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, we're not going to block Bvatsal61 for correctly enforcing Wikipedia's policies and reverting the three different accounts (including you) that have tried to add this so far. Biographies on Wikipedia are supposed to be neutral summaries of the person's life, not advertorial. ‑ Iridescent 02:06, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm sorry but I beg to differ. I don't see how the content posted is in anyway advertorial. It is simply a list of films which this individual has worked for as an Associate Director. This is factually correct information and not advertorial, which is why I consider BVatsal's actions unnecessary. Or perhaps I might not be understanding how Wikipedia defines advertorial and I request some advice from you on the same. As I mentioned, a similar director's page has an exact same table of information. So I do believe allowing one wikipedia page to have such a table and disallowing another on the terms that it is advertorial might be a bit of a double standard. If anything, I've gone in and deleted the picture and the two quotes which are the only information I can conceive of as fitting the definition of advertorial. I would appreciate any input. Thanks very much. Filmbuff91 (talk) 03:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:PROMO, WP:FLOWERY and WP:BLP. "He mastered", "renowned", "garnered instant success and recognition" are things you should see. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:27, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I get the impression that some people are so accustomed to reading promotional writing that they can't see the difference between it and neutral content. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:09, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Filmbuff91, I agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång and Phil Bridger about the promotional nature of these edits. I also want to point out that the two quotations that praise this director are unreferenced. This is a violation of policy. All direct quotations must be referenced per our core content policy Verifiability. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 15:31, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Filmbuff91: Do you know whether Bvatsal61 has seen this discussion? Removing the notification you left them yourself is a bit strange, and could risk them not seeing the section unless you already know they did... (If your intention was to retract your comment in this section here, you could strike it and add a note to that effect at the end of this section.) If you know that Bvatsal61 already saw this section, though, feel free to disregard this comment, and sorry for the bother. —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/them)｜Talk｜Contributions 22:03, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As listed at WP:EDRC, I am currently under an IBAN originally established almost two years ago and extended more than 18 months ago. I think that it is clear that the IBAN has served its purpose. I have scrupulously avoided any interaction with the other editor since the IBAN was extended and seen little editing by the other editor in question in articles on my watchlist, which has made it that much less likely that any issue would arise in the future. I think that the time is past to end the IBAN and ask community support for its termination. Alansohn (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I've notified the other editor with whom Alansohn is ibanned. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:57, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppoose- As the editor who Alansohn is banned from interacting with, I believe the ban serves a purpose and is the only thing keeping Alansohn from causing further disruption. Alan is arrogant, even now he refuses to recognize it was his poor behavior that led to the restriction and the request is misleading for several reasons. Yes it is true that the original iban was put in place roughly two years ago, but it was to only last 6 months. It was extended indefinitely with unanimous support just one month before it was set to expire because Alansohn blatantly violated it. And to show that the issue is still ongoing, just five months ago Alan accused me of stalking him. Nothing has changed.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:34, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• The last "infraction" on Alansohn's part was 18 months ago (the question on Swarm's page Rusf10 links to does not count as a violation). But based on Rusf10's unnecessary personalized attack (to which Alansohn cannot reply), the unsubstantiated claim that "the request is misleading for several reasons" (followed by a simple rewording of the info presented in the request), and the likelihood that Rusf10 *was* stalking Alansohn's edits back in September, it seems the issue is still ongoing. I'd think a better idea would be to convert this to an indef 2-way iban. Following the edits of someone who is ibanned from you is not on, and it doesn't matter to me that it happened 6 months ago. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:36, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Just for the record (as sometimes people take comments from admins here as guidance), while I'm decidedly not saying that this is what's going on here, there are legitimate reasons for checking the edits of someone who's i-banned from you; keeping an eye on what they're editing so you don't edit the same page and put them in an awkward position where they disagree with you but can't discuss it would be an obvious example. That does not mean it's OK to follow people around for the purposes of annoying them or to send an "I'm watching you" signal. ‑ Iridescent 23:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• I generally think Wikipedia’s tendency to take a sanction working at preventing disruption as proof that we should stop it from working at preventing disruption to be counterintuitive. People don’t usually start getting along by not talking to each other for 18 months. I see no reason any lifting the IBAN would be beneficial, especially with the other interested party opposed. Oppose from me. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:11, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Leaseworld has attempted to appeal the username block I placed on him, but he didn't get the formatting right, and it won't appear on the noticeboard. I have to go offline in about minus 1 minute, so if someone would have a go at it I'd be grateful. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 23:27, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]