Talk:Cassette tape

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gah4 (talk | contribs) at 11:50, 23 August 2021 (→‎Requested move 18 August 2021: it is confusing, and no-one I know called them ''Compact Cassette'', even when they did say it on the side.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Former featured articleCassette tape is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 27, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
October 8, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
April 20, 2009Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

speed

The article seems not to indicate that reel-to-reel tapes can go at 1+7⁄8 inches per second (4.76 cm/s). I did used to have one that went down to that speed. Gah4 (talk) 09:05, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • First guess: the omission is there simply to make a long list shorter. But today's reader may indeed read "a continuation of a series" as "not part of the [original] series" and it might need some refactoring. Retired electrician (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Speeds below 3-3/4 get mentioned at Reel-to-reel_audio_tape_recording#Tape_speeds but 1-7/8 was not one of the common choices for open-reel machines. I'm not opposed to removing the connection language at Cassette tape#Features as there doesn't seem to be support for it in the references cited. ~Kvng (talk) 14:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This depends on the market (market segment). Certainly uncommon in upper segments, but almost mandatory in lower-grade home stuff. Almost anything made in Europe that had more than one speed (this being 9.5 cm/s) also had 4.75 cm/s. Home recording at 19 cm/s was deemed "utter luxury". Yes, they drove 1.1-liter cars and recorded at 9.5 cm/s. Different market. Retired electrician (talk) 22:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

amongst 'professional' machines, the uher open-reel 1/4" portables probably existed in greater numbers than almost anything else bar the revox A77, & ran at 1-7/8 *and* 15/16, presumably for interminable interviews. there are also cassette decks that run at 15/16 or at 3-3/4 ips, & I mean standard machines, not microcassettes or portastudios. point is, the article is probably detailed enough for most readers.

duncanrmi (talk) 01:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 04:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Cassette tape → Audio cassette – The original name of the product is Compact Cassette, and would prefer it to be the title of the article, and all other names redirecting to it, but if this is not possible then let us at least rename it to "Audio cassette". The "Cassette tape" seriously irks me up, it is revolting. The "Audio cassette" name is common enough, recognizable, and it also was used by cassette manufacturers on the packaging, see the image above with three cassettes labelled as "Audiocassette", "Audio cassette" and "Audio Cassette". Everyone knows what audio cassette is, it is (was) a de-facto standard, so if people do not want to refer to a proper name given to the format by Philips, let us at least use a recognizable name that does not scream "illiterate". Mikus (talk) 22:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There was already a discussion encompassing that back in April. While I personally prefer "audio cassette" or "Compact Cassette" to "cassette tape" (which I would have opposed strongly had I been aware of the original move proposal), I don't think the discussion should be reopened after just two months. Ubcule (talk) 22:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Two months ago people did not want to use the original Philips' name, so I am proposing a middle ground. And, I have three manufacturers to back me up (see the photo with Fuji, Sony and Maxell audio cassettes).Mikus (talk) 23:03, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
One problem with the "audio cassette" title is that this tape format was used for more than audio, for example Cassette tape#Data recording. -- Netoholic @ 12:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is just a medium and as such can have different uses. Video 8 cassettes were used to record DV video, which Sony called Digital 8. VHS cassettes were used to record computer data and HD video. But the original usage of compact cassettes was audio, hence audio cassettes, and this is how they were marketed, see the packaging above. Mikus (talk) 18:10, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the photo above, where cassettes are called "audio cassette" by the manufacturers? Mikus (talk) 15:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Random-picked commercial packaging blurbs are not an acceptable source for naming. Retired electrician (talk) 15:36, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not random, WP:CHERRYPICKED. -- Netoholic @ 19:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I picked those that (1) I have, and (2) had anything about what is inside the packaging at all. Many packagings do not even specify what is that inside having "Type II" and "High bias". Mikus (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All three were end-of-the-line, bottom-of-the-line products from the era when all three companies quit manufacturing and subcontracted to Korean, Indonesian etc. plants... Good luck trying to find same audio cassette in the products from the golden 80s. This won't be easy. There will be Dynamic cassette, Acoustic cassette, Acoustic Dynamic cassette, even a Stereo cassette and a Recording cassette ... what makes audio any better? Retired electrician (talk) 20:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Without actually modifying the discussion, I will write this so that archive bots don't archive it. Gah4 (talk) 21:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

chewing hides the sound

this section of the article:

>>A common mechanical problem occurred when a worn-out or dirty player rotated the supply spool faster than the take-up spool or failed to release the heads from the tape upon ejection. This would cause the magnetic tape to be fed out through the bottom of the cassette and become tangled in the mechanism of the player. In these cases the player was said to have "eaten" or "chewed" the tape, often destroying the playability of the cassette.[84] This is sometimes referred to as bandsalat, or "tape salad." Splicing blocks, analogous to those used for open-reel 1/4" tape, were available and could be used to remove the damaged portion or repair the break in the tape.<<

is factually inaccurate. 'rotated the supply spool faster than the take-up spool' wouldn't make sense even it if meant what the writer intended it to mean. the supply side, if it's driven at all (& in most cassette decks, it isn't) would be pulling the other way to keep the tape under tension. there are several causes, but 'failure to release the heads' is not typical of them either.

most commonly, the *take-up* spool stops turning, because of a defect in the transport (idler tyre) or the cassette itself (warped/damaged housing, contaminant ingress); at this point, the capstan & pinch roller are still dragging the tape out of the supply side & across the heads, but then it has nowhere to go except down the right-hand side of the pinch roller & into the machine. failing to spot this & retrieve the situation with a quick blast of rewind is what causes 'tape salad'.

but I'm not going to correct the article, because it would be called 'OR' by the professional wikipedia fight-starters, one or two of whom have made a point of following my attempts to fix things & steam in with 'not relevant' or 'citation needed'. the para in the article is without citation (dead link goes to japanese website, but even if it didn't...) & most definitely wrong. someone? I need to find a reliable publication that explains it about half as well as I just did, right? :-/

duncanrmi (talk) 01:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've recovered the reference for the paragraph. It mentions tape being "eaten" as a problem but does not discuss the cause in any detail. Better than nothing. I've replaced implausible causes that we assume were OR with a more plausible general description of tension and resistance. If we have a consensus of three editors that agree these changes are an improvement, that should keep the fight-starters at bay. ~Kvng (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 August 2021

Cassette tape → Compact Cassette – The term "cassette tape" is a broad term that is used to described any type of cassette or cartridge that holds magnetic tape in it. While this format is the most well known, it does have a specific name which is "Compact Cassette". The term cassette tape doesn't just get used for the Compact Cassette but it also gets used for other audio formats like Digital Audio Tape, Microcassette, Elcaset, and DC-International just to name a few. It is also used to refer to video formats like the VHS, Betamax, Video8, and DV. Considering that there was an official successor to the format, Digital Compact Cassette, and a resurgence in old formats and new music being released on those formats as seen here (Video 1 Video 2 Video 3), I think it would be more appropriate to change the page name to the official name of the media format and not use the generic term. Naming this page "Cassette tape" is like naming the page for "Tissue paper" to "Kleenex" since it's the most well known. Suriwashi (talk) 06:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The US Trademark Electronic Search System shows no current registered trademark for "Compact Cassette" and all similar names are DEAD! It may have been trademarked at some time in the past but it is not so in the US at this time. The lack of a registered trademark likely makes it a common name. @Gah4: @Old Naval Rooftops: While u might still oppose you probably should clarify your opposition since your facts do not appear to be current. Tom94022 (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. "Kleenex" has a live trademark. Tom94022 (talk) 00:45, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My argument is based on it ever being a trademark. I am not so sure about the patent/trademark laws, but in any case it seems that Philips was licensing it for no charge. I believe, though, that it still needed to be licensed, and that the license might have required that name. Once the patent runs out, there is no need for licensing it. In any case, the only reason for calling it Compact Cassette is because Philips called it that. I believe that the C in C-90 comes from the C in compact, not the C in cassette, but that might not matter much. There is pretty much no competition, so no need to distinguish from anything else. It might be the common name, but I suspect not the WP:COMMONNAME, mostly because it is too long. Reminds me of the common use of the verb to tape for any digital (tapeless) recording system. Gah4 (talk) 20:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gah4:I suggest you are mixing up patents and trademarks - patents expire after a fixed interval while trademarks can be continued until they are allowed to expire. It may be that the Philips license required the use of the trademark which would no longer be enforceable after the patent expired and a license would no longer be required. There is at least one RS that the common name changed from Compact Cassette to Audio Cassette and not the more generic Cassette tape, namely:

Gradually, manufacturers dropped the Compact Cassette logo in favor of a simple “audio cassette” label — by the end of 20th century compact cassette had become a dominant audio tape cartridge format.

The origins of a hinged cassette box and Compact Cassette logo

I'm not sure what evidence there is to support "Cassette tape" as the common name - it does have more hits on Google (16M) than "Audio Cassette" (7M) but that is OR and not particularly good OR since the term is admittedly by all as ambiguous. Tom94022 (talk) 21:44, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily mixing it up, but understanding that it is complicated, and we really don't know. We don't know the licensing conditions. When this started (some years ago) I looked at the ones I have, and very few say Compact Cassette on them, mostly in the 1980s. Is there a record for when the trademark was active? In any case, even when they did say Compact Cassette, I never knew anyone to call them that. Well, my uncle had the RCA predecessor, so he might have. And then there was Elcassette, which I even looked at in the store, and had a tiny thought about buying. Gah4 (talk) 11:50, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Considering that the links in the page refer to the format as Compact Cassette including the different types, I agree to changing the name. Per Tom94022, they are right with the reason. AquilaXIII (talk) 02:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - COMMONNAME, no new convincing argument presented to the contrary. -- Netoholic @ 15:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - There's no good argument that's been made yet to justify using the generic name for the Compact Cassette. The VHS isn't called a Videocassette since there are different types. JAMendoza (talk) 16:41, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as per other arguments put forward, specifically those put by Netoholic for commonname, and Gah4 referencing that the last move request is still visible, and no new arguments have really been put forward. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There has been no new compelling reason given to change the title, just the same arguments as in the above and previous move requests. COMMONNAME is there for a reason, to place articles at not an official or legal name but at their most used/popular name. All "official" names are included in the lead, with redirects of those to here. Upon the inventor's death earlier this year, news–based obits refer to him as the inventory of the cassette tape Google search.(personal commentary: I never recall anyone ever asking me to copy an album onto a "compact cassette". Most of my cassette tapes do not even have the word "cassette" on them or the case, those that do mention the cassette mechanism. Oh memories.)--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 22:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Patent

I was trying to find the original, or some of the original, patents for the Philips cassette. Especially with the note above that Otten is the inventor, I thought that would help, but so far didn't. It would be both a useful reference for the article, and interesting related to the above discussion. Gah4 (talk) 07:31, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gah4: Take a look at US 3394899. Filed Oct 1964 with a priority to 1963; it is about the right time and it looks like the CC but it has Schoenmakers and not Otten as the inventor. See also EP0120518B1 also by Schoenmakers. Elsewhere is says, " Lou Ottens, was the team leader in Belgium. Involved in the team were J.J.M. Schoenmakers and Peter van der Sluis (the cassette PHILIPS EL 1903, the mechanism, the Recorder EL 3300)." At this point if we consider the "inventor" to be the person named on a patent. I think we have to remove Otten as the inventor and go with Schoenmakers. Or if we can find an RS (I'm not sure about Bookshop.org) for the team then we can go with the team, the patent and Schoenmakers as the "inventor." Tom94022 (talk) 02:47, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reminds me of all the discussions about the invention of the transistor, and especially Shockley. When it is not a lone inventor, it is harder to figure out who to name. But Ottens does have some patents, which was part of what confused me. Gah4 (talk) 21:17, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Same discussion exists as to the inventors of the disk drive and there was quite a lawsuit over the invention of the computer. However, when there is a patent, legally all the inventors must be named in the disclosure and then they are listed on the patent when issued. Even then there can be an issue because the the object may consist of a number of innovations, not all of which are patented inventions. So one usually looks for a reliable source, sometimes a court of law, to figure who really invented the object. To me, at first glance, claims 2 and 3 of US 3394899 appear to claim the CC. I haven't looked at the Ottens patents to see whether what they claim is all or part of the CC, but even if I did this might be OR. I think the best approach is to try and find an RS along the lines of but better than Bookshop.org. If I have some time I will poke around. Tom94022 (talk) 06:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another source that has Ottens as the leader of the team that came up with the CC but not necessarily its inventor:

Philips R&D leader, Lou Ottens, was inspired by the success and wanted to make an even smaller version. His motivation eventually sparked the release of the world’s first audio cassette.
The makers consisted of a Philips team of about 40 designers and engineers lead by Ottens.

WHO INVENTED THE AUDIO CASSETTE

Tom94022 (talk) 21:10, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are zero relevant patents by Ottens assigned to Philips with a priority date prior to 1965 which makes it hard to call him the inventor. It looks like all of his recent obituaries confused his management position with the invention. Tom94022 (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be sure, since I made the mistake of calling him Ottens instead of Otten, and that seems to have been repeated. Gah4 (talk) 11:39, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cassette_tape&oldid=1040238882"