Talk:Chair (officer): Difference between revisions

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move to any title. While this is not a vote, it's worth mentioning that the discussion had about equal numbers for the proposed title, the current title, and any other title (combined). No consensus has emerged after nearly a month. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 15:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chairman → Chair (officer) – Lots of readers will feel excluded by the current title. Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting. A few sources:

1. Chicago Manual of Style, 17th edition, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority."
2. European Union. The EU's Interinstitutional style guide and English Style Guide (26 February 2019, 15.1) both say: "gender-neutral language is nowadays preferred wherever possible. In practice, gender-neutral drafting means two things [including] avoiding nouns that appear to assume that a man rather than a woman will perform a particular role: ‘chairman’ is the most obvious example."
3. WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language: "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." SarahSV ^(talk) 22:25, 22 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support as above. Prefer Chair (officer). Second choice: Chairperson. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as unnatural, support Chairperson per WP:NATURAL In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: It doesn't matter whether readers "will feel excluded"; the term tends to not apply to them. What does matter is the usage of the gender-neutral terms, which have increasingly been adopted, whether to avoid "chairwoman" or otherwise. I feel "chair" with some disambiguative term to be the best option here, as "chairperson" isn't as common. ONR (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all per the Terminology section of the article itself which provides ample evidence that "chair" and "chairperson" are both rare forms, and often discouraged as poor English. This is a case where the suggested move fails WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language more than the current title does because chair/chairperson fails both "clarity and precision". The lead should reflect that "chairman" is the most common usage for both men and women, and that occasionally "chairwoman" is used for women in the position, and chair/chairperson are exceedingly rare. -- Netoholic @ 04:32, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all as per Netoholic. "-man" in this context is common gender as it has been for the last thousand years or so. BTW, at the moment quoting an EU guide to how English should be used is rather like waving a red rag in front of a charging bull! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all as per 2 previous editors. We are supposed to inform about well-known, much-used words and facts, not propagate change. "All men are created equal" includes women, girls and boys. Everyone knows that. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support those who claim the usage is "rare" should try googling the exact phrase "chair of the committee". It is, as just one example, standard usage for the committees of the UK parliament (e.g. [1]). In my experience, "chairman" is now the rare usage. The argument that "-man" is common gender simply does not reflect modern English – language changes. (The same argument used to be used about "brothers" or "brethren" including women in religious language, but modern translations, services and hymns have abandoned this practice.) As for "all men are created equal", when first used, it certainly did not mean that either women or African slaves were equal, so it's a clear example of why "man" is now inappropriate, not an argument as to why we should still use it in this sense. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I do not believe our personal opinions about past or present meanings are what we are supposed to go by. Article titles at Wikipedia adhere to Wikipedia guidelines. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per others above. Assuming that "chairman" is still the dominant designation of people exercising this role (and I strongly suspect that it is), I think it deserves its own article. Likewise, the "chair" article reflects the piece of furniture and offers a dab page for other uses. The close variant "chairwoman" currently redirects to "chairman". The article title need not imply that it is the preferred term, just that it is the most common. The "chairman" article can (and does) discuss alternative terms, and this is the best place to do it. Jmar67 (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not clear how true that assumption is. It's difficult to use searches because of the need for context. Here's one Google ngram. ("Chair" is even more common if you switch to American English.) Peter coxhead (talk) 23:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Have to be really careful with things like this, you can try a number of phrases and pick the one that seems to present your point - here's one based using a slightly different phrase which points the other way. Even using your ngram, the results change in favor of "chairman" if you just turn on "case-insensitive". Not saying a fairly worded Ngram can't be found, just that I don't think its that easy. -- Netoholic @ 03:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment For those not aware of it, this issue was previously addressed in 3 separate RM initiatives for this article. See the "Title" discussion, which triggered this one. Jmar67 (talk) 00:11, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Chair (officer) on the basis of the sources provided and my own sense as a native English speaker that "chair" is the most common word for this concept. To those who oppose, could you provide any sources indicating that "chairman" is more common or recommended by style guides nowadays? Otherwise your arguments seem weak compared to SV's argument, which is based on reliable sources. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:TITLES doesn't say anything about giving preferential consideration to any style guides over any other reliable sources. -- Netoholic @ 03:19, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Chair appears to me to have become the neutral/neuter form of the term. While NGrams are helpful, they only go up to 2008, so it's 10 years out of date. Further, the trajectory of "chairman" is steeply negative (another ngram above: chair of).

Moreover, multiple manuals of style note that Chair is acceptable or preferred:

• Chicago Style, also used by the American Library Association
• The Copyeditor's Handbook
• American Philosophical Association
• American Medical Association
• American Psychological Association EvergreenFir (talk) 06:39, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Variations section in the article is both very selective (e.g. only one of the most reactionary UK newsapapers) and out-of-date. These manuals should be included in the discussion at that point in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The "chair of" part of your Ngram seems to be picking up a lot of false positives referring to furniture. -- Netoholic @ 17:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Move to Chairperson. Chair (officer) is unnatural and we strongly prefer WP:NATURAL disambiguation as long as the term is commonly used (not necessarily the most used). Between "chairman" and "chairperson," the former is probably more popular, but there are other reasons to prefer the second. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 10:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to either chair (officer) or chairperson per MOS:GNL.
  • The Cambridge Dictionary says Although chairman can refer to a person of either sex, chairperson or chair is often preferred to avoid giving the idea the person is necessarily male.
  • I went through a list of Fortune 500 female CEOS and looked at how their Wiki articles referred to them. Although many do use the word chairman, many others do not or else use a mix of terms, suggesting that while the word can be used to refer to a woman, it's weighted male and not really "gender neutral":
    • Chairman: Marillyn Hewson, Lynn Good, Kathryn V. Marinello, and Mary Laschinger.
    • Mix of chairman and other: Mary Barra: Chairwoman in prose; Chairman in the infobox. Ginni Rometty: chair and chairperson in prose; chairman in the infobox. Kathleen Mazzarella: Chairman and Chair.
    • Other: Indra Nooyi: chairwoman. Phebe Novakovic: chairwoman. Geisha Williams: board chair. Vicki Hollub: U.S. chair. Michele Buck: Co-Chair. Beth E. Mooney chairwoman.
  • An aside: Something tells me that this change would've happened a long time ago if it weren't for Wikipedia's giant gender gap...
  • Another aside: Chair seems to be more common than chairperson, and it's older and, well, it just sounds better. But I admit chairperson conforms better to WP:NATURAL. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:35, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Updated vote: I Support a move to a gender neutral alternative. Ranked preference: 1. Splitting the article into "Board chair" and "Committee chair". 2. "Chair (role)" 3. "Chairperson" 4. "Chairman and chairwoman". 5. "Chair (officer)" WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 21:26, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • See my final vote in the ranked choice section below. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  (Slightly OT) Just out of interest, why do people prefer the French derived masculine "-person" to the Anglo-Saxon common gender "-man"? You really ought to discuss charperson/chairpersonne as a problem. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Martin of Sheffield: because we aren't writing in either French or Anglo-Saxon, so how the words were originally used in these languages are of no relevance to how they are used in modern English, in which "-person" is now regarded by speakers as gender neutral, whereas "-man" is not. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  You're exhibiting a gender bias by selecting only articles about women to draw your conclusion. This topic is not gender-restricted, and so your comparisons should not be either. It seems more like you're voting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, not follow our titling guidelines. -- Netoholic @ 18:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I was investigating the claim that chairman is gender neutral. Getting an idea of how accepted and common it is to use the term to refer to women is, I think, a reasonable way to do that. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Alternative proposal While there may be eventual consensus to move, it is certainly conceivable that there will be no consensus on the target. One compromise solution might be to move to "Chair (role)" and restructure the article to focus on the function itself rather than the person. The article can then describe, in a neutral manner, the various terms designating the person. Jmar67 (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another alternative proposal: "Chairman and chairwoman" (WP:AND: Where possible, use a title covering all cases: for example, Endianness covers the concepts "big-endian" and "little-endian". Where no reasonable overarching title is available, it is permissible to construct an article title using "and", as in Promotion and relegation, Balkline and straight rail, Hellmann's and Best Foods) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also thought in that direction. What would you think of "Chairman (and equivalent terms)"? Jmar67 (talk) 02:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmm, I would not call that title gender neutral, so it adds bloat without much benefit. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • One more alternate proposal: splitting the article in two, one for corporate chairs and one for government chairs. Possible titles for the former: "Board chair", "Chair of the board", "Chair (business)". And for the latter: "Committee chair", "Chair of the committee", "Chair (government)". WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • President does that, but I don't see a reason to do it here. Jmar67 (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Here's my reasoning: 1. a chair of a government committee strikes me as a very different thing from a chair of a corporate board, so it feels a little dubious to bundle them together into one article. 2. My understanding is that corporate chairs usually preside over a "board" and government chairs a "committee", which means we could go with, say, "Board chair" and "Committee chair" for the titles. Those two titles are a. gender neutral and b. don't need any parenthetical statements, and so they conform better both WP:NATURAL and MOS:GNL. Also, I don't think either title could be confused with the academic title which was discussed below. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • I would prefer "Chairperson" to "Chairman or chairwoman" if for no other reason than that it's shorter. Also, I'm not sure about separating "Board Chair" and "Committee Chair" as those roles are quite similar: on both Boards and Committees, the primary function of a Chair is to preside over a meeting of a deliberative body that decides things by meeting and voting (whether that body is a government committee, a corporate board of directors, a school committee, or whatever). Having a "Chair", and common aspects of a Chair (that the chair has the power to call meetings to order and adjourn them; that the chair sets the agenda; that the chair generally doesn't vote except to break a tie) all stem (I believe) from the popularity of Robert's Rules of Order for parliamentary procedure. So in my view, this use of Chair (board/committee) is one thing, whereas the academic professorship position (or "department chair") is actually a separate type of chair, and then the furniture is something else altogether :-). Note I've updated my !vote per the discussion here. It seems like "Chair (role)" and "Chairperson" may be the "finalists" here? Leviv ich 20:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support:
  1. "Chair (position)" (not a good choice per discussion below due to confusion with academic chair)
  2. "Chair (role)" ("Chairperson" is better for reasons stated in WP:NATURAL)
  3. "Chair of the Board" ("Board Chair" suggestion above is shorter and better) or
  4. "Chairperson" <-- Final answer

...in that order. The -man suffix is deprecated in the English language–don't need Google Ngrams to know that, just need to have been alive in the 21 century. "Chair (officer)" isn't the best DAB because, at least in the United States, the Chair of the Board of Directors of a company or organization is not an Officer of the organization (that includes other positions like President, Treasurer, etc., but not Chair or Vice Chair, or Board Member, who are distinct from Officers). So, that might be confusing, and I would suggest a different DAB like "position" or "role". "Chair of the Board" identifies the position/role fairly well. "Chairperson" is better than the current "chairman", but I think is not as common as the simple "chair", as in "Board Chair" or "Chair of the Board of Directors". Leviv ich 01:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• "Chair (position)" seems to include the meaning of a "professorship", which is different from the "chairman" role as a presiding official. A professor is simply occupying a "chair" with a particular designation, implying that he/she is being paid from an endowment. Jmar67 (talk) 15:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Good point. (position) may not be the best choice then. Leviv ich 17:19, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  After reviewing the continuing discussion here, I've come around to Chairperson being the best choice. "Chairperson" is better than "Chairman" for MOS:GNL reasons, and because the -man suffix is rapidly declining in usage in favor of gender neutral language (police officer, firefighter, etc.). "Chairperson" is better than "Chair (whatever)" for the reasons given in WP:NATURAL. Going with the common gender-neutral name "Chair" breeds confusion with all the other things with the same name, and any disambiguator we choose–"Chair (officer)", "Chair (position)", "Chair (role)"–will have some problems. We can avoid having to decide "what the second word should be" by going with "Chairperson". Our reader will know what we mean when we say "Chairperson", and when they type in "chair" it'll pop up as one of the suggestions. It's the best choice not because it's the most common form of the term, but because all the other options are worse for one reason or another. Leviv ich 05:51, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't know anything about corporate law, but here's a source that seems to confirm that technically corporate chairs are not always considered "officers". WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Political correctness gone wild here. I still see and hear chairman more than anything else, even when referring to women. If it ever were to move it would more along the lines of "chairperson," but even that is a bit strange. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support: Primary argument against appears to be "I don't like it. Even arguments about gender neutral versions are along these lines. A google search of "Chairperson" results in 40,800,000 results for me. That hardly appears archaic. A search of google with chair role description brings up many references to chairperson or chair generically. Even the Wikimedia Foundation uses the phrase "Chair". "Chair (role)" or "Chairperson" appear to be good compromises. A compromise for the WP:IDONTLIKEIT people concerned gender erasure could be including a discussion about the use of chairperson vs. chairman, for which there are ample sources that meet WP's standards credibility standards. --LauraHale (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Unfortunately WP:IDONTLIKEIT cuts both ways. What to one person seems like an innocent change in the language is to another forced politics and linguistic corruption. Conversely to one the natural form of English they have been speaking for 60 years is seen by others as an oppressive attempt to demean all womankind. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Completely unnecessary. Still the common name in ordinary speech. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Evidence? Or just your opinion? Peter coxhead (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Chairman is probably more commonly used than any of the proposed alternatives. The Oxford English dictionary says that while the gender-neutral terms chair and chairperson are accepted in standard English, they're still less common than chairman.

  ...Hold on, Wanda, whose side are you on? Well, here's the thing: the vast majority of committee and board chairs are men. So the fact that chairman is the more popular term does not mean that it is the most appropriate term for an article that is supposed to encompass both men and women. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, and that means we should be gender-neutral. Sometimes the most appropriate, inclusive, gender-neutral title for an article is going to be a term that's somewhat less popular than another more biased and gendered term. According to Google ngrams, fireman is more common than firefighter, and yet the Wiki article is titled firefighter. Policeman is more common than police officer but we go with police officer. It's true that we shouldn't just make up a term, or use a very rare neologism, in the name of neutrality. But in this case the proposed alternatives are perfectly standard and accepted English words. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:37, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  This is true to a point. Most companies will use the term chairman for both sexes, but it is certainly within the realm of reason that chairperson is used and becoming more common. However this rfc was to change chairman to "Chair (officer)" and that is not common at all and not likely to be. Hence a big oppose from me above. We also do whatever we can not to disambiguate with parentheses if possible. There is no reason to do that in this case. Also I'm not sure about wikipedia being so neutral... it's always back to consensus. If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us. If you want neutral then maybe don't start reading President Trump's article, as it's far from even-handed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't know if it's even-handed but it's certainly small-handed. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Fyunck(click), it isn't necessarily about moving it to Chair (officer). The RM says "Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting." If you prefer something else, by all means say so. An oppose means a support for Chairman. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Which I had already done above. Chairman preferred, chairperson a distant second. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Fyunck(click): If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us, no absolutely not, since all factual claims need to be sourced if challenged. Article titles aren't subject to sourcing in the same way, which is why we are discussing this, whereas we could not discuss whether to say that the sun is blue, since there are no reliable sources. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Ah! I presume a naivety of youth. If enough editors don't like your sources they will be dismissed as "unreliable" or "primary" in favour of sources which support the cabal's opinion. If any source that denies the sun is blue is discounted, all sources will be supporting it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, that is the way things tend to work here. A title spelling could have 100 sources spelling it one way and zero to two sources spelling it another way. But if enough editors would rather have it at the un-sourced or low-sourced spelling, that's where it will be. It's just something you learn after more than a decade of editing here. You !vote, you shrug your shoulders, you move on. It's not a big deal, it's just the way things are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It seems to be the case that companies still overwhelmingly use chairman, whereas other organisations variously use chairman, chairperson or chair. The fact is, of course, that chairman has always been used for both men and women (although chairwoman has been seen in the past, mostly in all-female organisations such as the Women's Institute), whereas other terms like policeman and fireman have generally only been used for men, with policewoman and firewoman being used in the past for women, and police officer and firefighter being overwhelmingly used generically today, although men (but not generally women) in those roles are still often referred to as policemen and firemen. It's just one of the many peculiarities of common English language usage that a woman can be a chairman but not a policeman! One size does not fit all in our language. That's just a fact of life. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I can concede that it is more common and accepted to refer to a woman as a chairman than a woman as a policeman. (On Google Ngrams, I tried comparing "she became a policeman" to "she became a police officer" but it couldn't even find any instances of the former.)

  This is an interesting case. Is chairman the most commonly used word for this concept? Yes. Can you find big corporations or newspapers who use the word chairman to refer to both men and women? Yes. But... is chairman the most common or accepted term for a female chair? I would argue no. According to Google Ngrams, the phrase "she became chair" is more common than "she became chairman". Is the term exclusively male? No. But is it weighted male? Yes. This isn't a completely black or white case, but I'm going to err on the side of inclusivity and gender neutrality and will stick by my vote. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Chair (officer) as failing WP:NATURAL, and no support from sources. support Chairperson as sourced, well used, and completely satisfying the problem. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:13, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see Chair failing NATURAL. See Chair of the Board. --В²C ☎ 04:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • User:Born2cycle what? You don't see the parentheses ("(" & ")")? "Chair" may be natural, but "chair" is not on the table. Follow WP:NATURAL and find the terms "Natural disambiguation", "Comma-separated disambiguation" and "Parenthetical disambiguation" clearly distinguished. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Chairperson per SmokeyJoe. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Relisting note: a couple of things need to be noted in this relist:

Many thanks, SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: I know there's an element of PC-gone-mad to this, but my experience tells me that a chair presides over a meeting. But, aside from anything else, who's saying that the 'wo' hasn't just been omitted from the middle? –Sb2001 00:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Move to Chairperson per MOS:GNL and WP:GNL (which could also support "Chair (office)"), but more importantly for WP:COMMONNAME (in a gender-neutral context), and for WP:CONSISTENCY with Sportsperson, Spokesperson, etc. "Chair" is business jargon, a shorthand verging on a form of occupational slang. Technically, it's "nouning" of a verb, to chair, which itself is a back-formation from chairman. I think the verb form dates to around the 1980s in semi-common usage, though I can find examples of it back to the 1960s, and I am old enough I remember businesswomen objecting to both it and the noun form contemplated here as too ham-handed an attempt at gender neutrality, well into the 1990s (e.g. Esther Dyson in her tenure as the head of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's board refused to be called chair on her business cards ("I'm not a piece of furniture" was the reason she gave).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per WP:GNL. Chairperson first, Chair (office(r)) second. More inclusive, attested as fine English in sources and style guides, better usage overall for WP's purposes. Dohn joe (talk) 19:34, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:GNL is an essay. This vote does not state a rationale compatible with Wikipedia:Article titles policy. -- Netoholic @ 03:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seconded. WP:GNL means nothing... an essay can be a view of one person. Even wikipedia guidelines get tossed by consensus in areas where they are too narrow or too general to cope with a situation. Essays mean very little. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • A rationale that relies on a policy (and not a guideline or essay) is that gender-non-neutral language is, well, non-neutral, in violation of WP:NPOV. It says specifically for titles that neutral terms are generally preferable. It adds this must be balanced against clarity but it's hard to see a clarity issue with a widely accepted and understood term like chairperson. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:51, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    Also an essay: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid on discussion pages#That's only a guideline, proposal or essay. Leviv ich 05:15, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is true that saying it's an essay is much easier than writing it out over and over. But many see these WP:GNL links and think it means something special, so pointing that out for clarity is important. The vote by essay rational is fine to use, but it's no better than when someone posts, "Support because blah blah blah" and the next editor writes "Support as per above." Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Reiterating my point above, I strongly oppose any form of parenthetical disambiguation, which is completely unnecessary when many good terms exist. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:01, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename to Chairperson per Levivich and SMcCandlish above and per Spokesperson, which has much the same issues. This will avoid all the problems of disambiguation tags. Timrollpickering (Talk) 17:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose A quarter of the page deals with the gender specific problems of the term so any political correctness needs can be largely dealt with in this section. The term is for a title that has historical and topical significance. If we changed the title of the article then the section on terminology would be very difficult to rewrite. We couldn't say chariman is outdated and has been largely replaced by chairperson or chair because this is not supported by any sources. If this PC road is to be taken then what do we do about Alderman or Tallyman or Ombudsman or Foreman and all the other titles such as Caveman Coachman Showman Crewman Chessman. I undersatnd the need to close the gap but this is political correctness gone too far. Dom from Paris (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for any gender-neutral name, with preference for Chairperson, then Chair (role), then Chair (office). I think MOS:GNL outweighs WP:COMMONNAME in this case. Recognizability is one of the five pillars, two others are precision and clarity. MOS:GNL gives specific examples of what shouldn't it shouldn't apply to: titles of works, or things that are in fact single-gendered. It noticeably doesn't say "Applies unless the gendered version is more common". WP:GNL I think also supports this interpretation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safrolic (talk • contribs) 04:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forcing changes on the language for political reasons decreases recognizability, precision and clarity. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a move to a more gender-neutral alternative. Chairperson would be naturally disambiguated (and hardly surprising to any viewer), but is also probably the rarest form. I do dispute the claim that "chair" or "chairperson" is some sort of an anomaly. Given that this topic includes all sorts of very different offices (is the chair of a board of directors really that similar to the chair of a search committee?) I'd note that there are a wide variety of terms used, with different de facto standards in different places/circumstances. For example, at least in American academia, which fetishizes committees for everything, the head of the committee is pretty much always just the "chair," regardless of gender. Note that this is a very different meaning from academic chairs, which are a different subject for a different article.Just a Rube (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. "Chairman" is clearly the common name. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language is not an article-naming policy, it is just a guideline for article text, so it cannot override our official article-naming policies at WP:COMMONNAME, and Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language is just an essay, not a Wikipedia policy or even a guideline, so it also cannot override our article-naming policies. The article naming policy is very clear here. It's also bad article naming convention to be introducing a parenthetical disambiguation into an article's title where one is not needed.Rreagan007 (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support because chairman is not gender-neutral. I was about to agree with Chairperson, but Just a Rube brings up a good point that I recognize chair being used more in certain capacities. It doesn't matter to me which is used... redirects exist. Rhinopias (talk) 18:21, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per User:Netoholic and WP:REDIRECTSARECHEAP. —  AjaxSmack  04:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to Chair (officer). It's 2019. Chair is the WP:COMMONNAME, but it needs disambiguation. The proposed title does that. --В²C ☎ 04:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ranked choice survey

This discussion has now been relisted twice, and it looks like there is an 18-8 19–8 majority in favor of moving (list), it's just a matter of choosing the target. How about a quick ranked-choice survey to figure this out? Editors can list their choices in order of preference, and a closer can "knock out" the least-popular choices until there's a winner. If editors think this is a bad idea, please feel free to delete/revert this edit. If editors think this is a good idea, maybe we should ping all discussion participants here? To make it easy on the closer, I suggest we just indicate numbers here, and keep discussion/arguments in the discussion section below. Thanks, Leviv ich 16:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Pings: SarahSV, In ictu oculi, ONR, Netoholic, Martin of Sheffield, SergeWoodzing, Peter coxhead, Jmar67, Granger, EvergreenFir, King of Hearts, WanderingWanda, Levivich, Fyunck(click), LauraHale, Necrothesp, SmokeyJoe, Ealdgyth, Sb2001, SMcCandlish, Dohn joe, Timrollpickering, Dom from Paris, Safrolic, Just a Rube, Rreagan007, Rhinopias WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 23:05, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Options

1. Chairman
2. Chair (officer)
3. Chair (role)
4. Chairperson

Votes

• 4, 3, 2, 1. Leviv ich 16:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1, 4, 3, 2. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 4, 3, 2, 1. I've flip-flopped on which gender-neutral term I prefer but I think I will land on chairperson as my final answer, after weighing all the relevant guidelines, even though chair is the more common term. (And even though I'd never personally use the word chairperson. Chair is more elegant! Not that personal preference is very relevant.) Chair (officer) isn't ideal because we've determined that board chairs are sometimes not technically considered officers. Chairman is not gender neutral. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1, 3, 2, 4 - Anything after #1 doesn't matter all that much. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 4 1 3 2, seeing as we are voting! —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A better voting method is to score each option:

Chairperson: 8/10. Used. Used in quality sources. NATURAL.

Chairman: 7/10. Used in quality sources, is the original term, linguistic construction issues don’t hold up.

Chair (role): 5/10. Ok, works, fails NATURAL.

Chair (officer): 2/10. Like role, but adds an authoritarian value judgement, and in many cases is in conflict with the meaning of an “officer”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note - not that it's a horrible idea, but I take issue with someone saying to the closer..."18-8 majority in favor of moving, it's just a matter of choosing the target." That is bias right off the bat. You could just have easily said that "Keeping at Chairman leads in the voting" even though this is not a vote. That whole first sentence should be removed as unnecessary. Plus no closer is supposed to use ranking behind their reasoning... they are supposed to use strength of argument even if it's 3 against 10. A ping should probably also be given to all those who participated in the last rm. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chairperson leads the voting with nine; Chairman has eight. Ranked choice can help the closer figure out consensus; it's up to the closer how to weigh the various comments and arguments. I have no objection if you want to ping anyone; I didn't want to do it so as not to be seen as canvassing, since I wasn't even sure if people thought this exercise was helpful. Leviv ich 22:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 1, 3, 4, 2 1, 2, 3, 4. Changing ranking vote. While I still prefer "Chairman", I would settle for "Chair (officer)" if the article title is to remain the title of the position, which the discussion seems to support. I continue, however, to favor recasting the article (with the title "chair (role)" or some refinement of it) to focus on the function or role involved rather than the title of the individual in the role. This avoids the gender discussion and the controversy of what title is more common. Jmar67 (talk) 12:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 2, 4, 3, 1. To help move us toward consensus, I'm also happy with 4, 2, 3 1. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC); edited 18:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC) and 20:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:NOTVOTE. This poll is an end-run around RM and WP:Consensus process. Closer should close as "no consensus" per WP:RMCI because there clearly is none. We don't just keep litigating. Levivich's claim of an 18-8 in favor of moving creates an unresolvable bias in this out-of-policy "ranked voting" process. -- Netoholic @ 08:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a consensus for a gender neutral title and so a closing admin should be moving the article - it's clear supporters of one prefer another to the current form. Sticking to the current title would be the worst of outcomes. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    I look at it this way: after a two-week discussion among 27 editors, my colleagues agree, by more than a two-to-one margin (19-8), that the current name is not the best name, and it should be something else, but there was no broad agreement on what the new name should be. I could take the position that unless my colleagues all agree on a new name, the rules require that the article not be moved, an outcome that two out of three editors disagree with. Or, I could help my colleagues settle on a new name, for example by asking everyone to post their second choice. Leviv ich 03:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 4, 3, 2, 1. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1, 4, 3, 2. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 4, 1, 3, 2. In response to Netoholic's point, I think this is a valid way to resolve things, when there is a clear majority against the status quo. Note that the status quo is still one of the options, so an alternative will not be chosen unless it is preferred over the status quo. It's a bit like having a People's Vote on Brexit with Remain and several Leave options. And the more participants there are, the more valid the raw vote becomes; when there are few some !votes may be significantly stronger than others and should be weighted accordingly, but when all that has to be said has been said, people will have to agree to disagree, and a result must be chosen based on overall level of support. There is precedent, e.g. Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Poll on Ireland article names. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The problem is the spoiler effect of having these multiple options. Someone who supports -absolutely- "no move", in the way this is constructed, has only 1 selection in this list and yet must still select from 3 other "move" options in ranking... and in doing so must dilute the intent of their preference. Constructing such a vote this way is begging the question and surreptitiously denies the preferences of voters while outwardly appearing to lavish them in options. Voting systems have in-built problems, which is why WP:NOTVOTE exists to explain the WP:Consensus policy. The Ireland poll presented several options which are based much more on personal preference. THIS discussion is about the limited and recent MOS:GNL guideline that does not apply to titles against the WP:TITLES policy based on WP:COMMONNAME - the weight of policy-based rationales cannot be captured in a simple numeric vote. -- Netoholic @ 01:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not suggesting this poll is an end-all, be-all, but it will be helpful to any eventual closer, when reading the above discussion, to have a clear summary of where everyone stands. The more discussion that happens, the less incumbency bias there should be (which only exists out of caution, due to the fear we'll get it wrong due to undersampling); in a discussion as well-attended as this one, I think it's entirely reasonable to say "here are the four options, pick one." -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with Netoholic. Ranked voting is subject to many problems, spoiler effect is just one problem, there are many. I think the best for Wikipedia discussions is Score voting. I like 0-10 out of 10. 5 is a pass, 10 is perfect. It is not susceptible to irrelevant alternatives, but much more importantly, it lends itself to encouraging !voters to explain their !votes in absolute terms for each option. If you give 8/10, it is easy to be challenged on "why 8/10" in terms of what is good and bad about that option. It is also good for implicit expressions of "strength" which go to the strength of reason, not strength of personal opinion. I think ranked voting should be banned in favor of score voting, with the usual understanding that the weight afford your !vote is determined by how good your argument is. Score !votes should NOT be added or averaged or processed mathematically in anyway. I would support graphing, if someone cared to. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 3, 2, 4, 1 —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:12, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1, 2, 3, 4 ONR (talk) 01:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 1, 5, 4, 2, but note that I wasn't counted in the vote tally above. —  AjaxSmack  04:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @AjaxSmack: 5? Is that for Chairhumanoid? ;-) Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @AjaxSmack:, does your !vote mean that approve all listed options, or is #5 indicating a point of acceptability? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 2, 3, 4, 1. --В²C ☎ 04:48, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• User:Born2cycle, if in the evaluation 2 & 3 are discarded, does this mean you support a move from 1 to 4? Note again who unintuitive or ambiguous rank voting for multiple options can be. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure why 2 & 3 (the Chair variants) would be discarded, but if they were, then yes, of course, this means I prefer 4 to 1, so would support a move from 1 (the sexist Chairman) to 4 (Chairperson), which I've noticed is being used less and less in favor of just Chair. Here, by the way, is example usage from 2004, ...says Joseph Fengler, the group’s chair. [2]. --В²C ☎ 18:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• 4, 3, 2, 1, with any of the first three being acceptableJust a Rube (talk) 11:29, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose relisting. Only choice: 1. Everything else: premature attempt to influence language. Please stop this now! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:55, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 4,2,3. But 2 and 3 are poor second choices. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 4,2,3,1 if scope limited to corporate officers; 4,3,2,1 if scope to include academic chairs and other usages with a broader meaning than that in business administration.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 3, 4, 2, 1 EvergreenFir (talk) 19:09, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note - at this point, the only two getting any kind of traction as a first choice is Chairperson and Chairman. Perhaps those two only should be put up for a RM survey and see where that gets us. With two choices either there'll be a clear argument for moving or there won't be. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:06, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 12 out of 18 prefer 4 over 1. I think it’s clear already. I see no reason to redo it with just the two choices. ——В²C ☎ 06:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • You see it differently, and your numbers don't match. There are 20 in the vote section and 8 prefer chairman. That's no basis to move even on a straight up vote, which this is not! 11 out of 20 want something other than "chairperson." And that doesn't include the main survey and its participants. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose move per COMMONNAME. Even if people feel that Chairperson is more neutral, Chairman is still clearly the more common name and per the WP:POVNAME subsection of the COMMONNAME policy we should use the term that is more likely to be the one for which people will search. Springee (talk) 12:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 4,2,3,1 Dohn joe (talk) 15:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• A lot of suggested Google Ngrams above, but I think this one using the short phrase "elected chair---" is reliable as it eliminates references to furniture and anything else that might be outside the scope of this topic. -- Netoholic @ 17:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Ngrams' most recent material is a decade old. We need to use it with caution. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Usage in the last 10 years, even if radically different, does not outweigh usage of over a hundred years. Wikipedia is not about WP:NEOLOGISMS. Ngrams is one of the most valuable tools (if used correctly) for demonstrating common usage. It is broad evidence, where otherwise we are left, as the supporters of this have done, to cherry-pick style guides and such. -- Netoholic @ 19:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Widespread language changes, even rather new ones, should be reflected in wikipedia. If something sticks around and is not just some meme (e.g., yeet), then we should reflect that. We use gender inclusive terms for many other occupations and positions as language around them has changed. That's not to say all which occupations have changed, as you noted below, but when they do we should update a well. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Netoholic, if we didn't rely on modern usage, we'd still be using lots of racist language. You can see the discomfort with the title in the regular attempts on talk to question it. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  "Chairman" is neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive. Its just a word as it exists in the language, and the most common word used to describe this topic. I think many of you are just guessing (hoping?) that the usage has changed significantly in the past 10 years, but you're not doing anything to provide evidence that it has beyond cherry-picking a couple articles and a few style guides which disagree a lot amongst themselves and are not sources for how widespread usage is, just how its used in specific circumstances. -- Netoholic @ 20:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Netoholic, the reason it doesn't feel gender-exclusive to you is that you don't belong to an excluded gender. Gender is invisible to the gender that sees itself and its language as the default. But the word excludes me. I felt a sense of shock, an actual jolt, when I found this page.

  Imagine if the standard term had started out as "Chair (whites only)". Over time other people came to be accepted as chairs too, but some diehards refused to drop "whites only" from the title, so when a black person becomes chair, they have to be called "Chair (whites only, but this one's black)". That's how absurd "Madam Chairman" sounds to me. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:42, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SlimVirgin: - I'm curious what gender you guess I am... and why you are dismissing my participation here based on that ramifications of that guess. Beyond that, I should point out that your emotional state is not part of the Wikipedia titling guidelines. Neither is strawmanning some equivalence to racism, nor the "absurdity" that you think is involved. -- Netoholic @ 20:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Netoholic: You said that chairman is "neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive". However, it is taken that way today, regardless of the etymological basis of the word. The MoS's I linked above generally point to this fact for their support of the gender-inclusive "chair" title. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @EvergreenFir: - "taken that way today" has no basis in any impartial measure of usage - its just your opinion or limited perspective. Just repeating that claim over and over again will not make it true. -- Netoholic @ 01:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Not just my opinion... [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]... EvergreenFir (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that Wikipedia uses firefighter not fireman, police officer not policeman, mail carrier not mailman, and human not man. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:29, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but note that those are NOT "fireperson", "policeperson", or "mailperson". You're cherry-picking to try and make your point - why have you not listed other occupation articles like journeyman, master craftsman, doorman, showman, marksman, milkman, helmsman, and more. These are not named that way because they are restricted to males, but because this is simply how English works. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The American Heritage Dictionary's usage note on chairman is a worthwhile read. It says that Words that end with the element -man ...sometimes generate controversy because they are considered sexist by some people...This ongoing controversy is evident from our usage surveys. It says that its usage panel (which it describes as a a group of nearly 200 prominent scholars, creative writers, journalists, diplomats, etc.) was asked to look at a sentence that referred to a woman as a chairman. 57 percent accepted the sentence, which is a majority, but which means a large portion of the panel did not accept it. It goes on to say: For writers interested in avoiding -man compounds that have synonyms, alternatives include compounds employing -woman and -person, as in chairwoman and spokesperson, and more inclusive terms that avoid the gender-marked element entirely, such as chair for chairman, letter carrier for mailman, and first-year student for freshman.

To me, the word Chairman is obviously similar to the generic he, which the MOS asks us to avoid. Both are in wide use but both are clearly controversial and considered by many people to be exclusionary. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its not at all similar to he and stating "To me" points to your lack of understanding that your personal opinion doesn't matter. He is specifically a male-referencing pronoun. "Chairman" is gender-neutral. If your claim is that just because a compound word uses "-man" makes it exclusive to males, then I wonder what you think of the word woman. Though, I should thank you for adding another data point (American Heritage Dictionary) to the stack of evidence that points to "chairman" being the WP:COMMONNAME. -- Netoholic @ 01:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And I should thank you for reminding me that it's often better not to hedge. I've stricken "to me" from the post. :) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 01:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The American Heritage Dictionary survey is from 15 years ago. We need to know what style books recommend now, which is why I referred to the Chicago Manual of Style, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority." That is the latest edition of an authoritative style guide.

The American Heritage Dictionary also refers to chair as in officer: "A person who holds an office or a position of authority, such as one who presides over a meeting or administers a department of instruction at a college; a chairperson." SarahSV ^(talk) 01:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a very important takeaway you both seem to be missing: In the 2004 survey ... 57 percent accepted Emily Owen, chairman of the mayor's task force, issued a statement assuring residents that their views would be solicited, a percentage that was actually higher than the 48 percent in the 1988 survey. This means that according to AHD, the trend is actually going the opposite of the direction that you think it should. -- Netoholic @ 04:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, in either case a large portion of the expert panel wouldn't accept a woman being described as chairman as correct. (43% wouldn't accept it in 2004 and 52% wouldn't in 1988.) (For comparison, in 2004 95% of the panel accepted a sentence where a woman was described with the -man word unsportsmanlike.) This undercuts the claim that chairman is a gender neutral word. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 14:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• NOTE on deleted AP Style Guide - This was removed from the top of the RM. AP Manual of Style - AP Style holds that you should not use coined words such as “chairperson” or “spokesperson” in regular text. Instead, use “chairman” or “spokesman” if referring to a man or the office in general. Use “chairwoman” if referring to a woman. Or, if applicable, use a neutral word such as “leader” or “representative.” Use “chairperson” or similar coinage only in direct quotations or when it is the formal description for an office. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with the deletion. WP is not written in news style as a matter of clear policy. Virtually nothing in our own Manual of Style is derived from AP Stylebook, which isn't even consistent with other news style guides, and is for a style of writing with almost nothing in common with an encyclopedia (except, perhaps, when compared to a comic book). While its advice on this isn't entirely terrible, it's intended for lowest-common-denominator reading in rapidly-scanned and rather imprecise material (aimed at getting a story's gist across in a few seconds, not at providing reliable reference material). Many would object to defaulting to "chairman". AP's apparent feeling that -person constructions are a bit formalistic isn't any kind of problem in an encyclopedia. I'll also bet real money that this advice in AP Stylebook will not last more than another couple of years, because they've otherwise shifted strongly toward gender neutrality. (Indeed, pretty much the only thing MoS got from AP was the general gist of how to do – or, often, avoid – pronouns for the transgendered. More academic style guides like Chicago and New Hart's have much slower publication cycles and were not yet offering a solution to this at the time when MoS needed one, so we cribbed (in spirt, not wording) from AP, and Chicago and NH eventually included the same approach.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• To me the real issue is applying MOS:GNL as expanded at Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language. Those who oppose the move never seem to directly address this issue. What has been shown is that:
  • "Chair" is widely used, even if less so than "chairman", so is a potential title.
  • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral according to a significant number of style guides, although still recommended by many others.
  • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral when searches combine the word with an explicit indicator of gender, such as "she".

Opponents of a move need to show that using "chairman" is consistent with MOS:GNL or that a title like "Chair (office[r])" would not be. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or chairperson. The entire -person style is now common (sportsperson, spokesperson, businessperson, etc) for specific constructions, though of course alternatives are common (firefighter, news anchor) for -man replacements where a -person version has no currency (*fireperson, news *anchorperson).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Does anyone feel that WP:NPOVNAME might apply here, if "chairman" can be demonstrated to be the prevalent form? Jmar67 (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that this is a matter of neutrality in the sense of there being opposed views of what is involved in chairing meetings or boards, so that there are possible titles that support or oppose there being such an office. It's a matter of whether "chairman" meets the test of MOS:GNL. I notice that few "MOS regulars" seem to be contributing here. I think it would be useful if they did. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chairman" is demonstrably, and resoundingly, the most prevalent form. "Chair" is 2nd and "Chairperson" is minuscule 3rd, both on the decline as of the most recent real data we have. "Chairman" is the widely-accepted gender-neutral word to describe this position. -- Netoholic @ 23:53, 30 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • No-one has disputed that "chairman" is the most commonly used (if only because the majority of chairs of major corporations are men); this is not the issue. The issue is whether it is sufficiently gender-neutral to satisfy MOS:GNL, and I do not believe that this has been shown, and it certainly cannot be shown by counts of usage. It should be based on reference to recent manuals of style; "recent" because usage is still changing with respect to gender neutrality. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, this was covered above already. Because most chair[person]s are male, "chairman" is always going to lead by a wide margin.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• For heaven's sake no more relists please I support chairperson but if it doesn't happen, don't keep relisting. 22:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 08:21, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• As I noted in an earlier post, I think a compromise that emphasizes the role and not the person might be in order at this point. An article title such as "Chair (role)" or "Chair (office of authority)" seems like the best solution as opposed to attempting to find a single synonym for "chairman" that everyone can agree on. Jmar67 (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree. There's a considerable literature on how to chair meetings, for example, including issues such as the chair's casting vote, which would be better accomodated at an article on the role than on the person, whatever they are called. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I do not agree. King (role)? President (office of authority)?! The exact position that this article is about is still called Chairman, overwhelmingly. We should leave it at that, with appropriate variations givenin the text. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  But unlike these offices, there's a specific set of activities covered by "chairing", and these are currently very poorly covered in the article. We have lots of articles at the activity rather than the actor, like Cooking or Skiing, so why not an article at "Chairing"? It avoids any suggestion of gender bias. I suppose there could be a different article, but this seems overkill to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  A chairperson often has additional roles in an organisation than just chairing the meetings, though there is clearly a problem when such a big chunk of the article is taken up with justifying the current title. (There's also a bit too much of taking one manual, and one which appears to be mainly a US thing at that, as authoritative on all matters, but it's always a struggle to counter that when here practice is all over the place and there doesn't seem to be any general studies of the mess, let alone a widely respected manual.) Timrollpickering (Talk) 18:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Not that anyone has actually sided with my proposal to split the article into "board chair" and "committee chair", but I did realize there's at least one exception to my idea that corporate chairs usually preside over a "board" and government chairs a "committee": the Chair of the Federal Reserve presides over a "board of governors". That makes my proposal to split the article less attractive. (Incidentally, I'll note that the article on Janet Yellen, the first woman to be federal reserve chair, refers to her as a chair and not a chairman. :) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:27, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oxford A–Z or English Usage (2nd ed, Jeremy Butterfield, 2013, Oxford U. Pr.): "It is also interesting that the most widely used [-person] forms, according to the [Oxford English Corpus], namely spokesperson and chairperson, come from the area of public life and are often used in official and news documents. Even so, spokesperson in the Corpus is about a quarter as frequent as spokesman, and slightly less frequent thatn spokeswoman, but this could be because these terms are commonly used of a specific person, where there is felt to be less need to be gender-neutral." It lists spokesperson as the most common -person form, and -chairperson second. [8]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage (4th ed, Jeremy Butterfield and H. W. Fowler, 2015, Oxford U. Pr.): "The prevailing orthodoxy suggests, at least in written language, that ... a gender-neutral form should be used, unless the sex of the person concerned is relevant .... The whole area is a potential minefield, but there are a number of unsexed designations which are now established if one wishes to use them and so avoid being labelled an unreconstructed sexist or quaintly last-century." Third in the list (after "bartender" and "businessperson" is "chairperson", though "chair" is also listed (along, later, with salesperson, spokesperson, sportsperson, etc.). [9]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I think I have all the prior two discussion participants informed of the new RM (those that haven't already seen this new rm), along with the two missing wikiprojects that missed the invite list. Not sure their dispostion towards the rm, but it can't hurt to have more eyes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:58, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Figures

There is currently clear support for a move. The next step is to agree on a term.

• Support move (19): SarahSV, Old Naval Rooftops, Peter coxhead, Mx. Granger, EvergreenFir, King of Hearts, WanderingWanda, Levivich, LauraHale, SmokeyJoe, Ealdgyth, Sb2001, SMcCandlish, Dohn joe, Timrollpickering, Safrolic, Just a Rube, Rreagan007, Rhinopias.
• Oppose (8): In ictu oculi, Netoholic, Martin of Sheffield, SergeWoodzing, Jmar67, Fyunck(click), Necrothesp, Domdeparis.

SarahSV ^(talk) 19:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This a gross simplification, against WP:NOTVOTE. Some people expressed an interest in a specific alternative - but you have no idea if they would prefer not moving if their specific alternative is not used. It also fails to take the weight of evidence and policy-vs-guideline arguments into consideration. MOS:GNL is a guideline which does not at all mention titles, and evidence demonstrates "chairman" is clearly WP:COMMONNAME which is policy per WP:TITLES. There is overall no consensus, and none is forthcoming. -- Netoholic @ 21:19, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Netoholic, the people listed above supported a move. I'm offering raw figures here, not trying to close it. But I'm concerned that because those supporting a move are split between the options, no move will take place, which is what nearly happened (see below). There's clearly a consensus to move it away from chairman. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And likewise if this article is moved to 'chair (disambig)', then we'll have about the same number that support a move away from that (to either chairman or chairperson). If we move it to 'chairperson', we'll have about the same number that support a move away from that (to either chairman or chair (disambig)). -- Netoholic @ 00:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: for transparancy’s sake I’m copying the text of my closure which I overturned per the request on my talk page.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Despite only relisting it yesterday, it was a second relist and closing instructions allow closures to take place as soon as consensus, or a lack thereof, becomes apparent. There is a numerical majority of users who have expressed support of a change towards a more gender-neutral term. However, it is numerically even-stevens for which alternative to use with regards to Chairperson v.s. Chair with some form of a disambiguator. While I appreciate Levivich's attempt at gaining further consensus after the second relist, it's clear both from the results of the poll, the prior discussions, and from Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, that there is no clear consensus on what to move it to. Furthermore, clarification is probably required with regards to the strength of the argumentation. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language is a guideline whereas Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names is a policy. Both sides made arguments on the latter grounds, however, the only way I can see consensus being gained is for an RfC on the interaction between the Manual of Style's section on gender-neutral language and what happens if it clashes article titling policy. Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title is of little help either, because the current system is not consistent. For example, we have firefighter and police officer but we also have doorman and helmsman.

I will abstain from making the final closure on this move. Many thanks, SITH (talk) 21:52, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I am involved, having !voted a preference for "chairperson". Noting that, I think there is consensus to move away from the current title, just enough to overcome WP:TITLECHANGES. Of the options discussed, I think "chairperson" is clearly the leader of the pack by a small to moderate margin.
  However, one should give TITLECHANGES extra weight due to this move being a straight reversal of 2008 Talk:Chairman/Archive 1#Requested move to "Chairman". Probably, one should ping all participants of that discussion, and try to speak to what has changed since then. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Per WP:TITLECHANGES: do not invent names or use extremely uncommon names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view. "Chairperson" is an extremely uncommon name by any measure. -- Netoholic @ 02:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Good point, but I sense, in real life, that there has been a change to "chairperson" over the last decade, and google books returns data only to 2008. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  Also, a weakness of google books is that it gives zero indication of introductory usage over repeat usage. Titles should be considered introductory. "Chairperson" is slightly awkward, and tends to be used introductory, and for statements making specific comments on the topic, with "chair" being used for mere mentions, especially repeated mere mentions. In this respect, ghits is actually better, as ghits upweights top level pages over appendices that ngrams weights equally. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:58, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Ngrams is at least evidence, as opposed to guessing what you think is popular now. Even for women, "chairman" is more popular term than "chairperson" - "chairperson" is the least desirable option in all cases. Feel free to check ghits if you like. Same results. -- Netoholic @ 03:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  That chart shows that "chair" has overtaken "chairman" for women. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:29, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  But note that chair is not on the table. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course not, chairs go beside tables not on them! Ahem. Anyway it's a good point, but still, for women, it is more common to use a gender neutral term like chair or chairperson than the term chairman. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 05:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Sure, "for women" the order at last report of Ngrams (ignoring historical weight) was chair>chairman>chairwoman>chairperson... but as we're being gender-neutral here, we can't name this article "for women" alone. Add men and the most common term is "chairman" across all people. Chairman is COMMONNAME, which is the main thrust of WP:TITLES policy. "Chairman" also happens to be broadly gender neutral, as it is the top use for men and 2nd use for women. Picking something which is a distant 3rd or 4th place for both sexes makes no sense and violates WP:TITLECHANGES as its trying to use an uncommon name to settle a dispute. -- Netoholic @ 05:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Most legislative bodies and corporations I read about or deal with use the term Mr. or Madam Chairman (or the person's first name). Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:14, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Netoholic wrote to me: "Feel free to check ghits if you like. Same results". Thanks.

I prefer to look without "she". Your ngram -"she". Quite a ratio in favour of chairman.

Ghits. I reckon they are more likely to reflect 2018-2019 than ngram. Some results:

About 229,000 results "a chairman is"

About 120,000 results "a chairperson is"

About 3,300,000 results "the chairman is"

About 349,000 results " the chairperson is"

I'm thinking the case is not made to move from chairman. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• (EC) So is Association football. I bet most people in England have heard of Soccer than that name. But we use it anyways as it has substantial authoritative support and sometimes you just have to pick the best out of several unappealing options. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Implementation

Perhaps this is a bit premature, but if the article is moved to "chairperson", would there be an objection to using "chair", instead, in the body of the article? "Chair" seems like the most common gender neutral term, and if "chairperson" wins out it would only be to avoid a parenthetical. Mockup:

Chairperson

The chair (also chairman, chairwoman, or chairperson) is the highest officer of an organized group such as a board [...]

In some organizations, the chair is also called president (or other title) [...] the chair has the duties of presiding over meetings [...]

• I think that would be the best way to handle it if the article is moved to "chairperson". However, I still think chair is more widely used now to sufficient degree that chair disambiguated with parens is preferable to the "natural" chairman or chairperson. I think people are recognizing that chairperson is typically only used when the chair is female and that those who use it still use chairman to refer to a male chair. So more and more are just reverting to the use of chair and rejecting chairman/chairperson usage. I think this article should reflect this by using Chair (disambiguated) as the title. --В²C ☎ 19:03, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that a US or global thing? I've been the chairperson of an organisation - and that was the formal title regardless of the holder's gender. A quick glance at Google News brings up the following examples of men referred to as "chairperson" in various countries including Zimbabwe, South Africa, the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland, Pakistan, Australia, India, Kenya, Rwanda, plus the transnational African Union (see also the name plate here), and, in English language media from countries without English as an official language, Finland. However the only US hit was for a student newspaper. Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• If you manage to get consensus on "Chairperson", the supporters will expect that to be the primary term in the article. And what is the objection to a dab form of "Chair"? Jmar67 (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The objection to Chair (role) that has been given is that it's better to use a title without a parenthetical disambiguation if possible. However, there's another reason I'm currently leaning towards Chairperson that I haven't mentioned: I think it's a little easier to parse. Role is not a common disambiguation word on Wikipedia, and personally when I see the word role my first thought is to acting. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 20:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't call it an "objection" because I'm fine with Chair as an alternative to Chairperson, but the reasons I prefer Chairperson over Chair (dab) are: 1) the reasons stated in WP:NATURAL, 2) "Chairperson" will pop up as a suggested result when people type in "Chair" and they'll know what kind of chair this article is about (people not furniture), and 3) any (dab) has problems. Chair (officer) is an inaccurate choice because board chairs are not officers, at least of US corporations. Chair (position) and chair (role) each fail to capture the other–"chair" (or "chairman" or "chairperson", if you prefer) can be a role, a position, or both. "Board Chair" is a position in a company, but also a role when they're chairing the Annual Meeting. But if the Board Chair is not available for the Annual Meeting, someone else, who is not the Board Chair, will be chairing the meeting, and will thus be a Chair (role) but not the Chair (position). Conversely, the Chair of the University's English Department is a Chair (position), but probably little of their job involves being a Chair (role). A subcommittee chair might be a Chair (role) (for an ad-hoc committee) or a Chair (position) (for a permanent committee). For these reasons, I feel that Chairperson accomplishes the goal (titling the article in a disambiguous way) without introducing the role/position/officer complications. Leviv ich 20:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't agree with ruling out "chair" simply because a dab is needed. If "chair" gets consensus as the best term, some dab is required. There are other potential alternatives to "role", such as "office", "office of authority", "officeholder". I originally suggested "role" in the interest of recasting the article to describe the function rather than the position title, and "role" seemed to be a reasonable choice. Jmar67 (talk) 21:32, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Even non-supporters would expect the term to be used throughout. That's what we do at Wikipedia. If the preferred consensus is "chairperson" then that's what the article should use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Except when the title is a NATURAL disambiguation compromise because the COMMONNAME is unavailable without disambiguation. --В²C ☎ 20:47, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Then there would be no reason for a move and you could do the same with chairman. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Chairman is also NATURAL disambiguation of the COMMONNAME for this article, which is Chair, and is inferior to Chairperson. --В²C ☎ 21:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • That is simply a matter of opinion. Chairman is what I hear and use most often in the business world regardless of sex. Chairperson is barely a blip in my travels. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• For my part I think Wanda's suggestion would be fine. Leviv ich 20:53, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• This section is off topic, premature, and irrelevant to the article naming discussion. -- Netoholic @ 00:49, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • True, right now it looks like no move is the likely outcome. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved and speedy closed. The last move request was closed yesterday, and is currently at move review. It is too early for this to be opened. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 21:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chairman → Chairperson – Per the previous closed discussion, most voices wanted either Chairman or Chairperson as their first choice. In review there are multiple style guides that prefer Chairman and tell us the term is gender-neutral, some sources even using Mr. or Madam Chairman in formal settings. There are also multiple style guides that tell us to use Chairperson or other terms, and that Chairman is not gender neutral. Both these versions Chairman/Chairperson can be supported ad-infinitum in searches. Both these versions can find support in Wikipedia guidelines, policies, and essays. It just depends on who is reading the text as to how it's interpreted. An RM had no consensus (twice) when given multiple choices rather than two choices. The bottom line for this RM is simple: what do we want here for the title in our encyclopedia, and likely for main use in prose throughout the article? Chairman or Chairperson? Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (Requested move 17 April 2019)

• Oppose - as nominator. In real world use I find Chairman to be the most natural, the most used, and gender neutral term. Though I would usually use the chairman's first name at board meetings, formally Mr or Madam Chairman is preferred (unless another moniker is specifically asked for). I'm aware that some terms such as policeman have tended to be replaced by police officer, but others have not such as layman, master craftsman, marksman, etc. I find Chairman fits more into the latter. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:07, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and speedy close as this option was amply-considered above and I think we need to take a break from this. --Netoholic @ 23:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and speedy close. This "request" was immediately opposed by the nominator, which is enough reason to throw it out, as the nominator themself does not want the move to take place. ONR (talk) 23:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Have you never seen an RM opposed by the nominator? Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:42, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  When there are already reasons to oppose that are unrelated to the nominator, it being opposed by the nominator is relevant. ONR (talk) 03:19, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Speedy close (disruption). This was just closed above, and is currently at MRV. This new move request, immediately following, and in parallel with the review, is disruptive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy close (disruption). This was just closed above, and is currently at MRV. This new move request, immediately following, and in parallel with the review, is disruptive. I already closed this discussion accordingly, but the nom, who opposes their own proposal, reopened it. ——В²C ☎ 05:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  And as I mentioned in the discussion section, if an administrator feels this should be speedily closed I have no issues with that at all. I did have an issue with someone deeply involved in the topic speedily closing this, and I mentioned this in our discussion on my talk page. It was not meant as any kind of disruption, it was to bring some closure to the RM by narrowing the choice to two. We've had two closures, one reverted, and now a move review... all under four or more choices. By having two choices only, I thought we could better scope the situation. I am against the move but that isn't going to stop me from bringing a choice to our fellow editors to come to a better conclusion. It may not go my way, but I don't care about that. I can live with the article being at chairperson even if I think it's a poor choice. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  No one is questioning your initial intent. It was just too soon. But if by now you don’t see how and why this is inappropriate and disruptive, I can’t help you. I think the fact that you would have no issues with an admin closure now speaks volumes too. Listen to that inner voice; don’t ignore it. Close this now. —В²C ☎ 06:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)close this now[reply]

  If an administrator feels it is worthy of a speedy close, I have no problem with their decision. I have always maintained that. I don't think it should be as I feel it helps after what some have construed to be a controversial closure. My inner voice is just fine with it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Far too soon after the last request. Calidum 17:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and suggest administrative action against the intentionally disruptive work here of this nominating editor. What a disgusting waste of our time & attention! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:54, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and speedy close. Having this open while the move review from the previous move discussion is ongoing is disruptive and distracting. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- Note - seeing everyone has opposed the RM in one way or the other, I asked for a speedy close. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:56, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (Requested move 17 April 2019)

This has been discussed ad nauseum above and the discussion finally closed. Reopening it here is simply an attempt to wear down opposition until people die of mental exhaustion. Close the requested move for at least six months. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 23:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The closer has refused to self-revert despite reasonable concerns from several editors on their talk page, and said "Feel free to re-request the move, perhaps with a more specific proposed title, at the timeframe of your choosing." While I think it may be premature to restart this before the inevitable move review concludes, the discussion was clearly active and ongoing, and IMO approaching a consensus for chairperson, when it was closed. It is equally premature to say that no consensus would be the enduring result and that we should table it for six months. Safrolic (talk) 23:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will leave it up yo administration on whether this is premature. It seemed obvious to me that Chairman and Chairperson were the dominant choices in the multi-choice fiasco above. My god we even had a ranking choice as if we were voting rather than giving the strongest argument for a closer to deal with. With the above debate being closed twice as no consensus among four or more choices, and a potential messy move review at hand, I thought one final "two choice only" debate was the best we could do. While, as the nominator, I prefer we stick with Chairman (as it's what's required of me in the outside world), if it moves to Chairperson here at wikipedia I don't really care. I do care that it goes through a proper process and that we finish this thing once and for all (or at least for a couple years at least). Move reviews are always messy with feelings hurt on both sides. This seemed like an easy fix. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:33, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move. There are a few things to cover here, but I believe there is a clear consensus to move to chairperson. First, it appears established that "chairman" remains the most common name in the sources. That's a fair argument for the oppose !votes, but as multiple editors pointed out, WP:COMMONNAME includes the caveat that When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. It's well established that many people consider the term "chairman" to be problematic for being gendered. This is borne out not only by the fact that approximately 2/3 of the participants here favored a move as well as the sources provided that cover why gender-neutral alternatives are increasingly used. Several oppose !voters also noted that chairman is problematic even if they preferred not to move to this title. Additionally, the guideline on gender-neutral language recommends that we Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision. It's well established that "chairperson" (and "chair") are commonly used gender-neutral terms for this subject. As such, the local consensus to move is inline with Wikipedia's guidelines. As many people here preferred "chair (officer)" or similar over "chairperson", it wouldn't be a bad idea to have another RM in the future to hash that out, though it's strongly advised to wait at least a few months before opening yet another RM here. Cúchullain ^t/c 21:20, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Chairman → Chairperson – Now that the move review for #Requested move 22 March 2019 has been closed, it's appropriate to make this more specific proposal (notwithstanding the identical interim #Requested move 17 April 2019 which was premature since the review was still ongoing and was speedily closed accordingly). Chairperson is clearly gender-neutral and, though it's difficult to ascertain for sure, it appears to be more common in recent usage than chairman. Also, the second poll in the 22 March RM did indicate that most participants favored Chairperson over Chairman. Let's verify and be done with this one way or another. В²C ☎ 17:29, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, per WP:CONSISTENCY, see also:

• Bartender (Barman redirects)
• Firefighter (Fireman redirects)
• Mail carrier (Mailman redirects)
• Police officer (Policeman redirects)
• Spokesperson (Spokesman redirects)

--В²C ☎ 22:28, 9 May 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 11:43, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey (RM 8 May 2019)

• Oppose move per COMMONNAME. Even if people feel that Chairperson is more neutral, Chairman is still clearly the more common name and per the WP:POVNAME subsection of the COMMONNAME policy we should use the term that is more likely to be the one for which people will search. Springee (talk) 17:35, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  For what it's worth I'm starting to lean towards "Chair (something here)" as it's the position while "Chairman/woman/person" is the person who occupies that position. That also sidesteps the question regarding is "Chairman" gender neutral or not. I also would favor inclusion of the history of the term. Springee (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support – Chairperson is the WP:COMMONNAME as suggested by:
  1. 2009, UK, US, AU, NZ: From chairman to chairwoman to chairperson: Exploring the move from sexist usages to gender neutrality
  2. 2018, NZ: "... drafters should use gender-neutral language and avoid the traditional use of male pronouns ("he") and nouns ("chairman")."
  3. 2018, US: "...job titles, such as policeman, postman, and chairman which now commonly go by the gender-neutral titles police officer, letter carrier, and chairperson or chair."
  4. 2019, mostly US: "For example, the term chairman and congressman are usually changed to chair/chairperson and congressperson ..."
  5. 2014, global: "In languages with few gender-marked forms, like English, neutralization is preferred, and there is a tendency to form gender-neutral expressions (such as police officers, flight attendants)." (PDF)
  6. 2017, US: "Most linguists today take a strong and unified position favoring non-dicriminatory language use."

Leviv ich 17:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You made a COMMONNAME claim, yet only WP:CHERRYPICK a few sources, and in fact one of those sources points out, in its only mention of 'chairperson', that coinages designed to be gender-neutral can easily become feminized when they are only used to refer to women - for example, when a woman is referred to as "chairperson" but a man is "chairman". In effect, your own evidence points out that supporting this move retains a gendered meaning. -- Netoholic @ 02:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow...those are some SERIOUSLY biased sources with a significant political/PC/postmodernist bent ("scholarly" or not). Buffs (talk) 16:01, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per nom Colonestarrice (talk) 18:06, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support move to the gender neutral title Chairperson. See: all the arguments and evidence I presented in the move discussion above, including an expert usage panel where a significant portion of the panel decided that referring to a woman as chairman was not just less-than-ideal but out-and-out couldn't be accepted:

• Note 1: to avoid the vote splitting of last time, here's my recommendation to everyone: if you think chairperson is a better title than chairman, vote support, if you don't, don't. If you think another title would be better, such as Chair ([INSERT DISAMBIGUATION WORD HERE]), just wait a year or so then nominate it in a new RM.
• Note 2: I still think that, regardless of whether the title is chairperson or chairman, the word should largely be shortened to chair in the article body.

WanderingWanda (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain why you would want to do that. The primary term used in the article should match the title. In the first RM, I suggested that "Chair (role)" or something equivalent might be considered if there was a lack of consensus on a target designating the individual. And that idea is reinforced by preferring "chair" in the article. Jmar67 (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See #chairman → chair in the article body - any discussion about which term to use in the article body to refer to the article topic probably belongs in that section, not this RM. Thanks. --В²C ☎ 21:51, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did mention this there, but it also seems on topic here. If the intent is to use "chair" in the article, do we want to keep "chairman" or move to "chairperson"? Other opinions welcome. Jmar67 (talk) 22:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's no reason to think "the intent is to use 'chair' in the article" just because one editor mentions it in clarifying their !vote. The idea about using chair in the article can be (and is being) separately evaluated on its merits, in the thread above. Leviv ich 23:19, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and Speedy Close - Per WP:COMMONNAME. We just went through this and it was speedy closed per my request. It was opened before the review was started. Talk about chutzpah to open it again so soon. Per the previous closed discussion, most voices wanted either Chairman or Chairperson (it was 12–12 in !votes). There are multiple style guides that prefer Chairman and tell us the term is gender-neutral, some sources even using Mr. or Madam Chairman in formal settings. An RM had no consensus (twice). I feel chairman is the most common term and is gender neutral. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Starting a second RM hours after the first one was closed–only to oppose it–and after it received a bunch of blowback and was speedy closed, claiming that "RM had no consensus (twice)"... that's chutzpah. Leviv ich 19:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  As stated, it was done because we so often see that potential move challenges go nowhere and cause more animosity towards our fellow editors in the process. My crystal ball was obviously correct and yours was not. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The MRV process had already begun with requests to reopen the previous RM at the closer's talk page when you started that RM, which was inappropriate. To have the audacity to start that one, revert its speedy closure, and then call for this one to be speedy closed, takes Trumpian level audacity. --В²C ☎ 21:37, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  And he said go ahead and start another two item RM at the time of our choosing. So I did to help the process. Your input towards me on this issue has been less than favorable from the getgo and I don't appreciate it at all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and Speedy Close - This has been discussed and closed. Constantly resurrecting the same argument shows an inability to accept consensus and an arrogance towards other editors that is not welcome. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Note – After the close and before the MRV, the closer wrote on their talk page: "Feel free to re-request the move, perhaps with a more specific proposed title, at the timeframe of your choosing." Leviv ich 21:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. I prefer Chair (officer), but Chairperson is fine too. The important thing is to move it away from the current title. It makes Wikipedia look bad, and it excludes a lot of our readers. That feeling of exclusion will intensify as readers become more conscious of sexism and gender issues, so we might as well move it now, rather than wait until we're the last organization standing to realize the world has changed. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Toosoon. Give it a break, push push push annoys people and filters out calm dispassion. Wait two months post “no consensus”, counting from the close of the MRV. It takes time for the non-obsessed to get a clean perspective. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  SmokeyJoe, this looks like an oppose, but you've supported below. Could you clarify? SarahSV ^(talk) 21:36, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I oppose immediate relists, even two weeks would have improved the discussion, but if we have to make a decision here and now then I restate my previous position. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:43, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support – like SlimVirgin, I prefer Chair (officer), but either title is better than what we have now. – bradv🍁 23:10, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Hasn't this been discussed recently? Chairman is fine, chair is fine, chairperson is uncommon usage. Natureium (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes it has, Natureium. Did you read the nom? Did you read #RM meta discussion? This has been addressed. Even the previous closer confirms it's appropriate to have this RM now. What's your point? --В²C ☎ 00:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per the support !votes above, and a general inclination to catch up with at least the late 20th century. XOR'easter (talk) 23:38, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per support votes above. LokiTheLiar (talk) 23:42, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support almost anything reasonable is preferable to the current title. Since chairperson seems to have the most support, good god please yes move it there. Citing to COMMONNAME over common sense and NPOV is unreasonable IMHO. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:45, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support chairperson per nom. Oppose chair (officer) as failing WP:NATURAL. If the only two choices were chair (officer) and chairman, I would prefer chairman. Also, don't speedy close this. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 00:03, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support chairperson, and thank you for posting this to WP:CENT. It is hard to imagine anyone in the year 2019 still thinks chairman is COMMONNAME; most of us switched to person years ago. Plain "chair" works, but is inelegant. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom. (Though I agree with others that Chair (officer) is good, too, perhaps even better than Chairperson.) --JBL (talk) 00:21, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, but prefer "Chair", which is well-established (going back centuries) and makes linking easier: "Curly Turkey was the [[Chair (officer)|]]bird of his coop." or "Curly Turkey [[Chair (officer)|Chair]]ed the meeting on that date." Reject all calls to WP:COMMONNAME on both sides, which fundamentally misunderstand both the letter and spirit of the guideline. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:47, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Per the notice at the top of every RM - arguments should be made with respect to Wikipedia:Article titles policy. You have both failed to do so and reject one of the key provisions of that policy. Who exactly is the one that misunderstands the letter and spirit of the policy? -- Netoholic @ 02:23, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Netoholic: We've already been through how inappropriate WP:COMMONNAME is to this case at Talk:MOS. You misunderstand both the letter and spirit of WP:COMMONNAME, which does not apply in a case where there are multiple established "common" names. I'm not going to re-explain things that you're not interested in trying to understand, especially when you're on the attack. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Chairperson same as last time. Oppose Chair as ambiguous abbreviated jargon, in meeting contexts it is even more often used as a verb than the noun. The current is OK, with "man" being etymologically gender-neutral, although that is view tending archaic. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:13, 9 May 2019 (UTC).[reply]

  Oppose Chair (officer) same as last time. All the ongoing discussion of Chair (officer) demonstrates the problem of rapid renomination, past comments have not been digested, there’s a lot of repetition, the non-obsessed fade away. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:25, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support chairperson (or chair) as the term most commonly used in the last forty-plus years. Johnuniq (talk) 01:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose - Article titles are solely governed by Wikipedia:Article titles policy. Nothing in there says anything about gender neutrality and, in fact, there is ample evidence that 'chairman' is widely considered gender-neutral anyway as given in prior RMs above. This move positively defies all of the WP:NAMINGCRITERIA listed. Per WP:TITLECHANGES: do not invent names or use extremely uncommon names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view and "chairperson" is an extremely uncommon name by any measure. Wikipedia names its articles how the world names the topic... there is no policy which allows naming to be based on WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. A local consensus in favor of a "feel good" measure like this cannot be allowed. -- Netoholic @ 02:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Have you been to a meeting in the last forty years? Johnuniq (talk) 04:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Born2cycle: - your WP:CONSISTENCY examples are irrelevant as that criteria only relates to Wikipedia-generated parts of titles (like how we name things in the singular, use "List of ---", or how our naming conventions define disambiguations). Also, you've WP:CHERRYPICKED, a small set but left out gendered occupations to which male or gender-neutral terms redirect like call girl (escort (sex worker) redirects), nanny (childminder redirects), or midwifery (maternity care redirects); or for which males in the role are left out like in Lunch lady; or the vast number of occupation articles that include the suffix "-man" like journeyman, master craftsman, doorman, showman, marksman, milkman, helmsman, alderman, tallyman, ombudsman, shop foreman, coachman, crewman, and far too many more to list (the work of whom is often measured in man-hours). The examples you cited are likely genuine WP:COMMONNAME - not evidence of gender overriding WP:Article titles policy. -- Netoholic @ 23:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It's not true at all that CONSISTENCY only applies "to WP-generated parts of titles". Of course, there is WP:OTHERSTUFF (see, for example, this article that actually specifically mentions WP's continued use of journeyman rather than journeyperson), and most of your examples don't have gender-neutral terms in common use. --В²C ☎

  В²C: If common use was your concern, you'd not have opened this RM because it is provably not common, even for women. I'd call your examples, the WP:OTHERSTUFF - certainly off-topic if you're going to dismiss my examples and claim to want to talk about common use of this term. -- Netoholic @ 23:48, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I think you're conflating common use and most common use. There is no question that Chairperson is in common use, and that Chairman is still more commonly used in general. Whether it's more commonly used in contexts where the gender is unknown is unclear. Do most bylaws, for example, use Chairperson or Chairman or Chair? But that's all besides the point, which is that Chairperson is in common use. Unlike any gender-neutral term of ombudsman, for example. --В²C ☎ 00:05, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  "I think you're conflating common use and most common use."—Netholic's had this pointed out to them multiple times, both here and at the MOS tlak page. This is why WP:COMMONNAME cannot apply, but without WP:COMMONNAME, what weapon does Netholic have left? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:43, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:COMMONNAME says Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used. There is, in fact, clear evidence that, even for women, there is a single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic - and that is "chairman". As there is no problem with disambiguation or other technical concerns, there is no policy-based reason to use anything else. -- Netoholic @ 20:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, we've been round in circles with this and are totally aware that you just don't care what problem WP:COMMONNAME aims to solve. But you also assert that "the world does not use the words" "chairperson" and "chairwoman", so why would anyone even bother trying to get through to you? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:09, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Gender neutrality is not necessary in all cases. Do we need a gender-neutral title for Her Majesty's Ship? I also agree with the points made by SmokeyJoe and Martin of Sheffield. I did not participate in the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 02:55, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  All ships are female. English speakers decided that. The current speakers of English language also chose to deprecate chairman. And they show no indication of reversing course. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 03:13, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  If they have it's news to the sources. I rarely hear anything but chairman. It might be madam chairman or it's sometimes just the chair. But in meetings I can't recall a single "chairperson" no matter if a woman or not. To each her own I guess. But changing all instances of chairman to chair in the article while this is going on is not cool. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:11, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Note "Her Majesty" refers to the queen, and not the ship. However, it's not relevant for this move discussion. isaacl (talk) 04:14, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The article Her Majesty's Ship begins His or Her Majesty's Ship, abbreviated HMS, is the ship prefix used for ships of the navy in some monarchies. Leviv ich 05:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. It appears that "chairman" is far more common that "chairperson", to an extreme degree. (I am a bit surprised by this, as all stats available do not seem to match my personal experiences, but I guess that says more about the kinds of things I read than the state of the English language.) Ngrams shows a very large gap, and for those concerned about whether that's changed in the decade since NGrams was last updated, the NOW Corpus shows "chairman" with 646,437 uses and "chairperson" with 76,080, for text since 2017. "Chairman" is more common both when referring to men and when referring to women. --Yair rand (talk) 04:49, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Indeed, even for women "chairman" is much more often used than "chairperson". -- Netoholic @ 05:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Yair rand: Do a comparison on NOW Corpus between "Appointed chairperson" and "Appointed chairman" since 2017. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 05:23, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Coffeeandcrumbs: "appointed chairperson" 207 hits, "appointed chairman" 1402 hits. --Yair rand (talk) 05:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks, how about "appointed chair" since 2017? Sorry, I could never figure out how to use Corpus. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 05:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Coffeeandcrumbs: 431 for "appointed chair". --Yair rand (talk) 05:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. The opposition arguments made here are for the most part rooted in policy (common usage etc.), but IMO they are more persuasive in a discussion on whether to refer to a specific person as "chairman/chairwoman" or "chairperson". If a man is elected to this position it's not exclusionary to refer to him as "chairman"; likewise if a woman is elected to this position it's not exclusionary to refer to her as "chairwoman"; plus, I'd argue it's more natural to use the term "chairwoman" than "chairperson" (same with "businesswoman" etc.) While it is uncommon to refer to a specific person of known gender as "chairperson", it is a reasonably common term to refer to the role in general. WP:NAMECHANGES is persuasive on this issue as it shows that we can place higher weight on more recent trends and usage. I do find it interesting that we are more concerned about how this role should be named, than the responsibilities the role entails, as the duties of a chairperson would clearly be of more interest to the average reader. feminist (talk) 07:23, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Feminist: Let's see evidence for your points. Here's mine. First, women are referred to as "chairman" far more often than chairperson or chairwoman, which comes in last. Second, leaving out pronouns to test your claim about general usage when the sex isn't known, "a/an/the/etc chairman" soundly beats a/an/the/etc chairperson. I am sorry the world does not use the words how you think they do, but everything you've said is provably false. Simply stated - the world at large thinks "chairman" is gender-neutral, and the most common name for this topic. -- Netoholic @ 09:36, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  "I am sorry the world does not use the words how you think they do"—I don't think you said what you meant to say, as your own evidence shows "chairwoman" and "chairperson" are in common usage and not in the least unusual. "The world" uses these terms. What next—deprecate "big" because NGram says "large" is more frequent, thus "the world does not use the word"? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course individuals should have the right to choose which term to use to refer to themselves: there is nothing wrong for a woman to refer to herself as a chairman, unlike what others may suggest. I think it's fine for articles like Robyn Denholm to use "chairman" as long as the subject prefers it and the usage is common among sources. But few news sources have the need to refer to chairmen/chairwomen/chairpeople as most readers would already be reasonably familiar with the concept. The only sources that would describe the concept of business executives in the way we do are reference work, such as Investopedia and business school textbooks. Ngram results would capture mostly news articles as they are far more common than reference works; they are useful for analyzing how news articles would report on changes in chairmen/chairs in specific companies, less so for a reference entry that describes what the role entails in a general context. feminist (talk) 15:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose in favour of "Chair" While becoming more frequent, Chairman remains the COMMONNAME. This is both from general/traditional usage but specific decisions from major company female Chairman stating that that is the title they desire to retain on taking the position. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support — Using "chairman" as the name of the article is obviously inappropriate, as it serves to exclude non-male people, by etymology if not definition. There are two problems with exclusionary article titles like this. First, they create an air of hostility towards those they exclude, placing a needless barrier between the encyclopedia and its readers and contributors, and violating the project's goal of civility; second, they are inherently biased, violating the project's goal of a neutral point of view. The common-name policy should carry much less weight than these other two points, if it indeed contradicts them. (That said, I encounter "chair" way more often than the other forms of the word, it seems like; "chairperson" is a reasonable alternative for disambiguating from the furniture.) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}} (they/their)｜😹｜✝️｜John 15:12｜☮️｜🍂｜T/C 09:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language is an essay, not a Wikipedia policy or a guideline so unless we change it to a policy or guideline i would not support a move so there is no need to move Abote2 (talk) 09:58, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Abote2: So, if we made into guideline you'd support the move, but would you support making WP:GNL into one? If the answer is yes, then I feel like WP:NOTBURO applies. If you do not support upgrading GNL, then at least I would get where you coming from.–MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:42, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Following the use of gender neutral terms such as Firefighter and Mail carrier, Wikipedia should not use a gender-specific term where a gender-neutral one is in common usage. I would prefer Chair, myself, as more common in everyday usage - and we could surely disambiguate it from the piece of furniture as "Chair (organisation)", or similar, just as we have Chair (railway) (and I notice that Chair (officer) already exists as a redirect term). But Chairperson is certainly preferable to Chairman. RebeccaGreen (talk) 10:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose & speedy close this is disruptive. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support or mark as a separate article from Chairperson if the fuddy duddy old fashioned word needs its own article. I recall a time where saying "Madam Chairman" was acceptable, nobody does this today, though I guess you might be lucky enough to hear it in a pre-1970s film or used by someone idiotically self unaware <insert name of Bullingdon Club politician here>. As for the above speedy close because of disruption(?) please link to where the disruption is happening if you are serious. --Fæ (talk) 12:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Noting that the article contains a photograph of Christina Magnuson as a "chairman". The photograph is an old one from 2008, and though the description uses the word "chairman", no sources are given to confirm that in the minutes her official title was "chairman" rather than chair or chairwoman. --Fæ (talk) 13:29, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - per Sarah and MOS:GNL and the fact that fireman and postman are not articles but redirects to firefighter and mail carrier. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  See though Fireman (steam engine). Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support though I would prefer Chair, which has a long history of use. As many have indicated Chairperson is more gender neutral than Chairman and is in wide use. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SusunW: - that would actually be a great choice, as it can make a better claim to Commonname (though it's sort of the common functional name, with people who use it not thinking it's the actual full position) and would also fit gender-neutral etc Nosebagbear (talk) 14:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Chairperson per my comments in previous discussions up page. Timrollpickering (Talk) 15:13, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - per Sarah and Ealdgyth, though I also would prefer Chair. — IdRatherBeAtTheBeach (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support: Per Ealdgyth. No one has made a good case as to why this term needs to be specifically gendered when other professions or titles are not. --LauraHale (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @LauraHale: In current common English usage, "chairman" is used as a gender-neutral term. See stats above showing that female chairmen are more frequently called "chairman" than "chairperson" or "chairwoman". --Yair rand (talk) 20:24, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Yair rand:, Common usage says that Chairperson is more neutral. It is how the Wikimedia Foundation refers to the chair of the board. It seems bizarre to me that these two are out of sync. --LauraHale (talk) 20:36, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @LauraHale: I don't know what it means for common usage to say that something is more neutral. The WMF's preferred language usage bears no more relevance than any other organization's. --Yair rand (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Oppose chairperson. Commenting only on the issue here, and not the process. Of all the options this is clearly the third best,[19] and barely features in analyses of which is the common name. As noted above, chairperson isn't even above chairman when it comes to female officers. But when you instead compare with chair, you find that is narrowly now the accepted term: [20]. If this is closed and reopened as an RM to Chair (officer) I would support it, as that's the accepted gender-neutral term. And it loons like several others above are the same. I can't support chairperson though, we'd rather remain at chairman than that. (And plenty of prominent women such as Christine Lagarde do use the term chairman so it's not an egregious error).  — Amakuru (talk) 06:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per Amakuru, et al. I'm not implacably opposed to Chairperson, but it does seemingly fail on COMMONNAME, and not by a small margin. I can appreciate the goal of adopting a more neutral alternative term regardless of COMMONNAME, but in that case Chair (officer) would seem to be the preferable choice (and is one I'd support). ╠╣uw [talk] 10:30, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support We're doing this again? Well, my reasoning hasn't changed in the past month: chairperson is common enough to be recognizable and acceptable, naturally disambiguated, and gender-neutral. I'd note again that this article is extremely broad, covering all sorts of different types of chairs (from business, to politics, to committees in general), many of which may have somewhat different language preferences (as I noted last time we discussed this, an American academic committee such as a dissertation committee, search committee, Faculty Senate Committee on How Parking Stinks, etc., is pretty much always led by a "chair," but it wouldn't surprise me if businesses tend to prefer "chairman" for the same role). I suppose there also might be some dialect variation (e.g. US English vs. British) in terms of frequency, but that's beyond my knowledge (and I'm far to lazy to look it up). With such variety, there's no reason to stick with a masculine name. Just a Rube (talk) 10:38, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Chairperson, chairman, chair, and chairwomen are all common names, so we should choose one that is NPOV and it seems to me that the choice is limited to chairperson or chair. I prefer chair, but chairperson is acceptable to me. I would add that I concur with Just a Rube and in my experience, chair is most common. StudiesWorld (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose – Like it or not, "Chairman" is still by far the most-used form of this title, therefore switching to "chairperson" would fail WP:COMMONNAME. I even know women who are happy to get called Chairman. Also, I'm not too impressed with the opening of this RM immediately after the previous one was closed and endorsed as no consensus. Sounds kind of like Brexit: never a consensus for anything, but oh boy are we gonna discuss it yet again.^[FBDB] But here we are. Let's see. — JFG ^talk 14:47, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - per WP:COMMONNAME. For the evidence, please see Yair rand's !vote. --MrClog (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The gender-neutral form is more frequently used in English in recent years; also, when in doubt, we should err on the side of more inclusive language. Sandstein 18:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sandstein: I would appreciate it if you could provide a link to any corpus showing that chairperson is used more frequently than chairman in recent years. As mentioned above, the NOW Corpus shows "chairman" with 646,437 uses and "chairperson" with 76,080, for text since 2017. --Yair rand (talk) 21:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - "Chairperson" is common, natural, and gender neutral. And I strongly agree with what Sandstein said, "we should err on the side of more inclusive language". -Zanhe (talk) 18:32, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak oppose - "Man" is etymologically neutral as noted above, although I'm fine with either move, "Chair" being slightly better as it sounds more natural. (EDIT: In some other cases "-man" remains a gender-neutral ending as well, such as "alderman", although I'm not sure of detailed statistics on that matter. In any event my previous comment stands.) – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:20, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support This is the more common term these days for the role, and the more formal the context the more common it is. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 21:54, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. And I have a strong suspicion that if this article is moved to "Chairperson" that there will be endless complaints and move proposals to move the article to "Chair (some disambiguator)". Rreagan007 (talk) 01:27, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• support WikiProject Politics member In my state (Connecticut), almost always its chairperson (except when it's co-chairs). My preference personally is to use the singular term "chair" but I think that may or not be a better article title. Also, I just want to copy something B2C wrote below: I genuinely think Chairperson is far preferable to the sexist Chairman, and believe if we had more female editors this wouldn’t even be a question (notwithstanding the counter-examples of certain women going with the Chairman title). Yup. I one hundred percent agree with that as a very apt observation. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:31, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Chairman is still more common. Would support Chair (disambiguation word) as a gender-neutral option. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:47, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as it's not the common name. Wikipedia reflects the real world and has no moral obligation to be unorganically more "progressive" than the real world. Perhaps this will be revisited in say, 10 years. --Pudeo (talk) 11:01, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. People are supporting and opposing both per COMMONNAME (and implicit assumptions about the commonality of "chairperson") but the evidence I've seen cited favours the support side—in the March move proposal text and Levivich's !vote. (Amakuru provides ngram links but unfortunately they only go to 2008, and language can change quite a lot in 11 years.) How natural a term sounds to you is not reflective of the world as a whole. But contemporary style guides should absolutely be one source we look to in our naming conventions. The guideline WP:GNL also biases us towards gender-neutral terms. "Chair (officer)" would also be acceptable to me but WP:NATURALDAB favours "Chairperson". — Bilorv (he/him) _(talk) 01:20, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Contemporary language guides mostly favor "chair" or "chairperson". See OED, The United Nations, the European Parliament The Purdue Online Writing Lab, The APA, and the Chicago Manual of Style (gated) all recommend "chair" or "chairperson". Several news-related style books recommend "chairman or chairwoman" where appropriate, but none of these sources support using "chairman" as a generic for all chairs, and virtually every contemporary style book (including our own) recommends avoiding gendered language where possible. Editors who are citing the N-gram viewer to support WP:COMMONNAME seem to be misreading the policy. It doesn't require us to replicate every thoughtless colloquialism regardless of accuracy or context. It says that we should use the common terms that occur in contemporary reliable sources, but eschew those terms when they are problematic. Where I'm from, "Coke" is far more common than "soft-drink", but we're not going to retitle the article that way because it's wrong and confusing even if it is common. Chairman is inaccurate because (according to basically every language authority) "chairman" is implies a gender. Nblund ^talk 01:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nom, and without prejudice to any previous discussions.

  The English Oxford Dictionary - as embedded in MacOS 10.13.6 (2018) - states USAGE: The word chairman found itself accused of sexism in the 1970s, with critics opposed to the way it combined the notion of power with a grammatical gender bias. Two neutral alternatives were proposed, chair (which was actually recorded in this sense in the 17th century) and the neologism chairperson. Both terms faced initial resistance, and although they have now become accepted in standard English, the Oxford English Corpus shows that they are still far less common than chairman.

  What we have here on the en.Wiki is a case where commonsense should prevail over COMMONNAME. Per SandyGeorgia and SarahSV, I also concur with Sandstein's: we should err on the side of more inclusive language. Gender related words and pronouns are the hottest topic on Wikipedia (SMcCandlish's Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour, for example) and many people are very quick to examine others' semantics however innocent, in order to discover a reason to feel insulted - whether rightly or wrongly - and accuse each other of misoginy, misandry, or anti-LGBT, and in doing so, even resorting to personal attacks themselves. The anglophone world embraces many different cultures where offence in one may not necessarily be offence in another; en.Wikipedia is hence a cross-cultural project (not just America) and in that respect should strive to employ language that is acceptable to all editors and readers. Chairperson is one such compromise. In the body of a BLP or other article however, it would be perfectly appropriate to use chairwoman or chairman when the subject of the BLP is one or the other, or in whatever direct speech that person refers to the office held by themself.

Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:36, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support for reasons already covered in detail in previous rounds. Summary: chairperson is supported (as either an option or the favored option) by virtually all authoritative contemporary sources on English usage, while chair (also accepted and occasionally favored) is unfortunately ambiguous and potentially confusing (especially in an academic context, in which it may refer to an endowment not an elected/appointed committee-chairing role), and thus is a much poorer choice than chairperson in an encyclopedia.
  This is not a speedy-close candidate, because the previous round's closure ended with consensus to move but no consensus yet on what to move to, making this follow-up discussion essentially mandatory. Yes, we're tired of going over it, but that is the price of uncertain closes and unclear prior consensus discussions. We all know this, so please do not add further to the WP:DRAMA and inter-editor tension level by injecting hyperbole and finger-pointing.
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:49, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Procedurally poor leave it six months then try again and just notify WP:CENT rather than a slew of projects that might skew the outcome. - Sitush (talk) 04:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for reasons given above. Not convinced at all by COMMONNAME arguments, see eg this. GiantSnowman 07:21, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Please try to avoid accidental cherry picking it gives a false impression of the facts. The same source has another page https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/chairperson and the synonms list chair, chairman, chairwoman in that order, so very clearly "chairman" is not listed in preference to the other terms in that source. --Fæ (talk) 07:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Or they listed them in alphabetical order. Springee (talk) 11:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  i.e. so very clearly "chairman" is not listed in preference to the other terms in that source --Fæ (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Your use of "in that order" suggested you felt the order of the list was order of preference. However the text of the listing does support that Chairman is the COMMONNAME. I'm going to again throw out a plug for Chair (office) or similar since the two are related and avoids both the appearance of gender preference (chairman) and the appearance of changing a word to avoid implied gender (chairperson). Chairman/person/woman can be a subset of the topic chair. Springee (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per the WP:COMMONNAME arguments. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per nomination. Vulphere 12:33, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support either "Chair" – with parenthetical disambiguation such as (officer) – or "Chairperson", although I prefer Chair. There's no doubt in my mind that an increasing proportion of people find "Chairman" not to be gender-neutral, and we should avoid using such terms where possible. There are two perfectly good alternatives that are incontrovertibly gender-neutral and we should be using them. --RexxS (talk) 13:03, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• comment. On examination, chairman has always been gender neutral. If there is a perceived concern, or attempt at drama-mongering, then use 'chair'. The association with males is a product of the patriarchy, and a predictable mocking reaction, "you are assuming that role, we will have to change the title to postperson [sarcastic grin]". Altering the suffix '-man' to '-person' is accommodating a reactionary position, that something that seemingly contradicts the language produced by a hegemony be mangled to produce a term that flags it as an awkward fad of current parlance (because Marxists). So move to Chair? No, that is a solution and not the problem ('which we need to have a discussion about …') being elevated. How about no, and the misogynistic language champions get some new material, rather than seeding our community with hackneyed 'issues' to wedge and divide the community. cygnis insignis 13:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I would sympathize with this idea, because the socio-political point about what is happening on/to Wikipedia is generally correct, and of course we wouldn't go along with "postperson", as a bogus neologism. However, "chairperson", like "spokesperson" and "salesperson" (all very business-centric terms) isn't a bogus neologism. It's been well-attested, normal English (albeit not the only form thereof, and more common in particular contexts) for several generations now. Not everything similar to PoV-pushing language-change activism (and favored by PoV-pushing language-change activists) is actually PoV-pushing language-change activism. The fallacy here is a disguised form of the one that goes "Falafel must be bad because Saddam Hussain liked falafel." :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. This nonsense has been going on since at least the 1970s, but doesn't look like there's ever been much traction in the outside world. But if we are to really go down the so-called gender neutral route, I would much prefer Chair (officer). As purists kept arguing back in the heyday, use of "person" is flawed for exactly the same reason that "chairman" is. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 14:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  They're wrong, though. It's pure folk etymology. While the -son in -person does, in a very roundabout way, go back to the same Proto-Indo-European root as the stand-alone word son, they're unrelated morphemes that just coincidentally look the same. Son is Germanic, and comes from Anglo-Saxon sunu; person is a truncation of Latin persona, which had nothing to do with sons (male offspring) but already meant in Ancient Roman times what it means today: 'human being'. By contrast, the -man in chairman is exactly the same morpheme as the English word man, which since at least Middle English has done double duty as 'human being' and 'male human being' after truncation of Anglo-Saxon wermann, 'male-human').  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:23, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Ehrlich and King, 1994 is cited in several books on linguistics for a passage specifically about "chairperson" where the authors (Susan Ehrlich, Ruth King) point out that true generics such as chairperson and spokesperson, introduced to replace masculine generics like chairman and spokesman, seem to have lost their neutrality in that they are often only used for women ... Rather than ridding the language of a masculine generic, then, the introduction of neutral generic forms such as chairperson or chair has led to a gender-based distinction between forms such as chairperson or chair (used to designate females) vs. chairman (used to designate males). While this was published in 1994, it is still cited and acknowledged even in feminist books as recent as 2018 that chairperson continues to be "resisted very strongly". By so often pointing out that society hasn't adopted this term, they establish that it is not WP:COMMONNAME. -- Netoholic @ 20:38, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - per COMMONNAME as evident in NGRAM and Oxford English dictionary entry. Should chair or chairperson overtake chairman - then we should consider changing this - at present this is premature.Icewhiz (talk) 20:33, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Icewhiz, what do you make of these N-grams [21] [22] that only go up to 2008, plus the post-2009 sources in my !vote above? Doesn't convince you that chairman has fallen out of favor? Leviv ich 00:15, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I'll comment. Your Ngrams are deliberately cherry-picked and intentionally misleading. You picked uncommon phrases (which I assume you had to spend quite some time using trial and error to find). In your "board ---"/"committee ---" examples, you left out the more common and natural phrases "--- of the board" and "--- of the committee" variants, which when combined with yours show a commanding lead for "chairman" in both cases (and more last-place finishes for "chairperson"). Nice try. -- Netoholic @ 04:32, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Following up from Netoholic - I'm unimpressed with your references - as they are sources promoting gender-neutral language, and do not document language usage in a gender-activism-neutral perspective - in this respect a sources such as a dictionary documenting word usage - e.g. this presented above is preferred. As for NGRAM - the comparison of chairperson vs. chairman in that NGRAM is valid, however chair has its own set of problems - as searching for "board chair" may yield results for "board-suffix chair" (e.g. "card-(linebreak) board chair) as well as possibly confusing the "seat (chair) on the board" with "chair of the board". In this regard a search for "chair* of the board" removes such ambiguities - NGRAM. "chair of" may catch on (my read of the situation is that for board of directors - this is far less common, in academia use of "chair" is more common) as may "chairperson" - however we should update Wikipedia after such a change is established - not prior to it happening (after all - we don't want to WP:CITOGENSIS/advocate for language change - we follow common name, we don't lead for a change). Icewhiz (talk) 04:48, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Chair (officer) as first choice per WP:COMMONNAME. As a man in my early 40s, I can't recall ever actually hearing someone use the term 'chairperson'; on the other hand, I can't remember the last time I heard someone say 'chairman' - I'm sure I must have heard it, but I literally can't remember when I last did. It's much more natural to say 'he's the chair of the board of studies', or 'she's the chair of the promotions committee' or whatever - that's the word that people actually use, at least wherever I've lived and worked.GirthSummit _(blether) 20:55, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak Oppose Part of me wants to vote support, but Chairman is its most common form (for whatever reason).Slatersteven (talk) 22:08, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I think its clear "chairperson" is a valid term (not a NEO), and while there are arguments for what is more common, this seems like a case of IAR for something that benefits the work down the road later. Also, I would not be against the suggestion above from Girth Summit of "Chair (officier)" that eliminates much of the question. --Masem (t) 22:48, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Reasonable and well supported. Parabolist (talk) 22:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support chairperson, but that's a politically biased vote from my side and is explicitly independent of any policy or guideline, in response to this appearing in WP:CENT. In any other case, I would not respond. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:56, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME: When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. and MOS:GNL. COMMONNAME doesn't force us to use whatever term has the highest line on Ngrams; it's based around the insight that the most common name usually is the one that best fits the WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, but it's a presumption not a guarantee. There have been arguments advanced that the current name does not satisfy the criteria, and few if any of the opposes have actually articulated why "Chairman" fulfills the naming criteria better than "chairperson" (at best simply saying it's more common and at worst saying they don't like chairperson). On the other hand, many support votes have offered multiple independent justifications for why "Chairperson" better satisfies the naming criteria and our various guidelines. It's more consistent (e.g. Born2Cycle), it's it's more neutral (e.g. Goldenshimmer), it's used in other professional style guides (e.g. Nblund), we should put more weight on recent changes in usage (e.g., feminist), it makes sense (e.g. Kudpung). Oppose arguments are that chairman is more common (e.g., YairRand, though B2C and CurleyTurkey rebutt this well above: COMMONNAME means it should be in common usage not that it is the most common), we have other pages that end with -man (e.g. Netholic citing Alderman), gender neutrality is not necessary (e.g. Srnec), and "chairman" is gender neutral (e.g. John M Wolfson, though as a counterpoint, consider the existence of this discussion). I don't find any of the oppose arguments compelling, and certainly not enough to outweight the support arguments. Even a number of oppose !votes are in favor of a move (e.g. Huwmanbeing and Ohconfucious) but to some variant of "Chair" (which I also support). Wugapodes [t^hɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 23:01, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, per clear conformity with WP:COMMONNAME On Google, I find 36,400,000 search results for Chairperson, but a whopping 372,000,000 for Chairman. The argument for WP:CONSISTENCY can be dismissed for all the examples given by B2C above, as WP:COMMONNAME clearly applies to each of them, as demonstrated by the Google search results shown below:

• Bartender: (171,000,000 results) (Barman redirects: 34,800,000 results)
• Firefighter: (198,000,000 results) (Fireman redirects: 74,500,000 results)
• Mail carrier: (499,000,000 results) (Mailman redirects: 23,900,000 results and Postman: 31,100,000 results)
• Police officer: (1,320,000,000 results (Policeman redirects: 77,700,000 results)
• Spokesperson: 868,000,000 results (Spokesman redirects: 90,900,000 results)

I genuinely strive for gender equality whenever I can, but not to the extent of changing an article title to suit a gender neutrality approach when that would trump common usage. Wikipedia should reflect what words are notable and in common usage in English in the real world, not attempt to change that usage from within, no matter how laudable that might actually be. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This really doesn't help us much. Google doesn't discriminate reliable from unreliable sources, or new from old, and "chairman" is common, in part, because there have historically been more men in those positions than women. Naturally, "chairman" is more common when we're talking about a specific man who presiding over a meeting, but the question is: "is chairman the best term for a position that could be filled by a person of any gender?". Nblund ^talk 15:24, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - Not much to add beyond Wugapodes' nice summary above. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:35, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. There is a push amongst the PC crowd to redefine our entire language on gender neutral terms. In many cases, it's a push back against what they feel is a "patriarchal tyranny". It's a straw man argument. Language will evolve and we should change it AS it evolves...we should NOT be the leading edge of "righting great wrongs". Buffs (talk) 15:58, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Per nom and chairperson, chairman, chair, and chairwomen are all common names, therefore per WP:COMMONNAME: When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. and MOS:GNL, as mentioned above. oncamera 16:42, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence presented by Nick Moyes and others is convincing. shoy (reactions) 17:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per common usage and the argument stated by Pudeo. Lepricavark (talk) 18:31, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• (Copy and paste previous vote) Support for any gender-neutral name, with preference for Chairperson, then Chair (role), then Chair (office). I think MOS:GNL is more applicable than WP:COMMONNAME in this case. Recognizability is one of the five pillars, two others are precision and clarity. MOS:GNL gives specific examples of what shouldn't it shouldn't apply to: titles of works, or things that are in fact single-gendered. It noticeably doesn't say "Applies unless the gendered version is more common". WP:GNL I think also supports this interpretation. Safrolic (talk) 03:43, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support As per Wugapodes and Nblund. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 08:53, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Gender-neutral and commonly used. While not quite as common as "chair", it obviously can't occupy the title Chair, and like Association football I think a longer term beats out an awkward parenthetical disambiguation. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 02:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Yes for sure. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:45, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The rationale given is correct.  — Scott • talk 13:36, 15 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RM meta discussion

My vote above should not necessarily be seen as an endorsement of this new RM existing in the first place. Obviously, in general, I think starting a new RM or RfC right after one closes should be discouraged. But maybe this is a special case considering there was an issue with vote-splitting, and a strong majority of participants (more than 2-to-1) favored a move of some kind. WanderingWanda (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In actuality it was 12 for chairman, 12 for chairperson, 4 for chair officer, and 2 for chair role. So not more than 2–1 nor even 2–1. As to whether it's a "special case" I can't say, but those "special cases" can come back to bite the next time an RfC or RM happens in some other article and someone uses this "special case" as an example. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:17, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But the second poll indicated most if not all of the "other" supporters (first pick is neither chairman nor chairperson), including Yours Truly, favored chairperson over chairman as well. The point here is to figure this out for sure once and for all. --В²C ☎ 21:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I am emphatically not involving myself but am in fact pausing to mention that there is absolutely no requirement for any sort of waiting period to raise a second move request, especially a second move request to a different name. Red Slash 23:02, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  What Red Slash said. There is no policy-based reason why we cannot have this discussion. See WP:THREEOUTCOMES and WP:CCC. – bradv🍁 23:12, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It's called Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process until you have exhausted the opposition and got what you want. This is not a time-critical decision. I don't believe that most of the participants have digested others opinions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Netoholic: How do you explain this clear indication for fall of the term? COMMONNAME or any policy should not overrule good faith consensus. Commonsense and the majority opinion/advise of reliable sources also advocate for the term be deprecated. Throughout much of history the accepted term for me was Negro. Are you saying we should have waited until 1997 before we stopped using that term? Wasn't 1986 long enough? Sure advocate for any/* Requested move 8 May 2019 */ other term but opposing the removal chairman is nonsense. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 02:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Follow WP:Article titles policy - that's our only option. As for the rest, I'm not going to fall into a discussion with your race-baiting. Your search terms aren't even equivalent meanings and miss other relevant search terms entirely, and so present a false choice fallacy. -- Netoholic @ 02:49, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is fair point. But Wikipedia policies change. And this is how we change them. One consensus at a time. It is called common law --- Coffeeandcrumbs 02:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hard cases make bad law. -- Netoholic @ 02:59, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a hard case. Redirects are cheap and work just fine. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 03:09, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And now Coffeeandcrumbs has made a second attempt to change all instances of chairman to chair. He was told not to do it and reverted anyways. Very uncool during this discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:15, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please undo your reverts that removed dead link fixes. I have placed a neutrality tag instead. I am not interested in an edit war. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:21, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It was already reverted by someone else. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note - Usually, these requested moves are posted to the projects listed on the talk page and perhaps past participants. Sometimes to a central project, which can be helpful because it brings in a group of unknowns whose opinions will vary greatly. But we have had a huge number of one-sided respondents in this that have suddenly appeared and that seems a bit odd when looking at the last couple of RMs. Were some opinionated people/groups/projects canvassed or is this just natural? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I haven't checked for canvassing or whether these are mostly repeats or new contributors, but these responses seem totally consistent with the consensus favoring Chairperson over Chairman in the first RM that seemed obvious to me and some others, but apparently was not so clear to you, the closer and about half the participants at the MRV. Frankly, I don't get why those of you who didn't see it didn't see it, but this result is no surprise to me, for one. --В²C ☎ 18:46, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Considering it was 12–12 last time, with a few others wanting a move to something else, you would think the numbers would be similar. I'm not sure why this RM topic is so popular this time. If it changes it changes, but it feels strange with these new fans. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't know how you get 12-12. There was an undisputed consensus, even noted in the MRV, to move away from Chairman in the first survey of the first RM, and in the second #Ranked choice survey of the first RM:

  • 8 Favored Chairman over Chairperson: Martin, Fyunck, Jmar, Necro, ONR, Serge, Springv, Nec
  • 12 Favored Chairperson over Chairman: Lev, Wanda, SJ, Sarah, Timp, King, Granger, B2C, Ajax, SMc, Evergreen, DJ.

  Not to mention that this second Ranked survey was prematurely closed and was moving in the direction of more support for Chairperson. So, yeah, I don't see why these results would be a surprise to anyone. It confirms exactly what Sarah, Lev, I and others pointed out was going on. --В²C ☎ 19:37, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  In actuality it was 12 for chairman, 12 for chairperson, 4 for chair officer, and 2 for chair role. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:48, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Why would you consider only the first choice in a Ranked choice survey if you're generally trying to determine consensus support between any two choices? For example, your approach misses my favoring of Chairperson over Chairman (first choice was chair officer). That's a misreading of the effort everyone is putting in, and explains why you're surprised at the results here. --В²C ☎ 20:00, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I went by the numbers. Sure you can say it was 18 to 12 in favor of moving, and it might even move with those numbers. I would expect after weeks of discussion that the numbers would be similar with perhaps a move, perhaps not. But it's moot as I found the reasons. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:07, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I also went by the numbers; that's how I got the 3 to 2 ratio (18 to 12) favoring Chairperson over Chairman on top of the clear consensus favoring moving from Chairman. That's why I was surprised it was closed as "no consensus", and why I was further surprised to see so many endorse that close. It's not moot. What you found has nothing to do with these numbers. -В²C ☎ 20:24, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  And like in politics, numbers can be contexted into looking so different depending on how those numbers are conveyed... we all know that. And baloney... the canvassing I found may have had a huge impact. 5–4 before and 17-6 after. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:29, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The canvassing you found may affect the current survey, but it can't have affected the numbers we've been discussing here - the ones from the first RM. As to how those numbers can be "contexted", yeah, you can ignore the rankings in a ranked survey or take them into account. If you ignore them you misread consensus. If you account for them you read consensus correctly. Your choice. --В²C ☎ 21:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• NOTE - FOUND IT! What the cr@p!!! It appears I was correct in my observations. We have an editor (an administrator too) who listed this RM survey at Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, WikiProject Feminism, and Women in Red! No wonder the new blood and all one sided! Any closer should note the bias in the choices and the tainting of the survey. My goodness. Why not list it in military and firearms groups, or capitalism and Trump groups? That narrow slice of the pie answers my original query. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Fyunck(click), you should ping me when you talk about me. You omitted to say that I also left a note at WikiProject Business, [23] WikiProject Politics, [24] and as B2C points out below, WP:CENT. [25] SarahSV ^(talk) 01:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SlimVirgin: I didn't use your name, but I should have pinged you anyway. At the top I mentioned that notifying the article projects and cent was a good idea. You missed "WikiProject Parliamentary Procedure" but a bot caught that. The project articles were also notified in the other RM requests, either by me or someone else. It was the other three new groups that concerns me greatly. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:03, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Also: Template:Centralized_discussion and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Style_discussions_elsewhere_[keep_at_top_of_page]. --В²C ☎ 20:13, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fyunck is surprised an RfC listed at CENT is getting traffic. Fyunck, new editors joining the conversation is a good thing. It's not some grand conspiracy you've uncovered. Leviv ich 20:52, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, as I said, CENT is a good thing. A large melting pot of varying ideas. The other three are terribly out of place and canvassing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Whether our article is titled "Chairman" or "Chairperson" is "terribly out of place" for the Gender Gap Task Force, WP Feminism, and WiR? You don't think editors in those projects would be interested in this? Or do you think they shouldn't have a say because they're participants in those projects? Please explain how posting on the talk page of a WikiProject is canvassing, which says (right at the beginning of the first section): An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion. Leviv ich 21:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • What does that have to do with the price of eggs? I'm sure there's any number of editors, groups, or forums, that would be interested in this. Shall we post to some political correctness groups? Perhaps India since they have English as an official language? Maybe some I hate gov't groups to see what they think? The point is you don't canvass groups that are predisposed to your own position. Maybe we should poll the Russians since they seem to like meddling in things these days? ;-) Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:26, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

          Yeah but you can easily tell the canvassed Russian !votes because they're !voting for Chairman → Premier. The Chinese, meanwhile, think it should stay at Chairman. :-) Leviv ich 22:40, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  My limited interactions with SV have been positive and I'm sure canvasing was not the intent. However, I think it's very likely that the notifications in question are likely to result in a biased response. Fyunck's concerns are valid in this case. While, as I stated above, think that per COMMONNAME we shouldn't change the title (Wikipedia by its nature should lag such changes rather than lead them), I don't think "Chairperson" is so terrible a title that we should be making such a big deal out of it (that includes the improper NPOV tag for using "Chairman" instead of "Chairperson". Springee (talk) 03:17, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Which of the above !votes should be discounted due to bias? Just the ones you disagree with, or...? This line of argument is like, "All editors who care about the gender gap or feminism will !vote for chairperson, therefore we shouldn't invite them to join the discussion." Leviv ich 03:41, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah well, the damage is done and is impossible to undo. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:08, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  (edit conflict)That is always the problem if there is improper notification of a group of editors. So let's suppose I'm part of "project don't mess with old school language" and I found out about this discussion when an editor posted a notice on the DMWOSL project page. Should my opinions count? I would say yes. After all, even if it was decided the posting to project:DMWOSL was absolutely wrong and clear canvasing, I wasn't an active participant in the canvasing. Once the cat is out of the bag you can't put it back and you shouldn't blame the cat for the troubles. Things might be different if, for example, I found out because an editor specifically notified me or asked me to vote. Then I would be foolish to weigh in as I should know I was being recruited (the usual proper notifications excluded of course). Regardless we now have two issues. First, the closing editor really needs to take NOTAVOTE to heart. If 1 editor makes a killer argument while 10 say "oppose" without reason then the 1 killer argument should carry the day. The second is if the result is "change" then a strong case could be made that the RfC was invalid due to the canvasing and the results should be thrown out. I personally do not care strongly enough about the issue to do this myself. Springee (talk) 04:09, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Springee: I posted the same message to, in order, GGTF, WikiProject Business, WikiProject Politics, Women in Red, WikiProject Feminism, and CENT. I did almost the same last time, except for CENT, so I suspect that's the one that made the difference. I can tell you of GGTF that you're as likely to find opponents on that watchlist as supporters. What we're seeing here is a fresh group of people, rather than the ones who already had this page on their watchlists. That's why you're seeing the view change—not because of canvassing, but simply because of fresh eyes. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:56, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  SV, like I said, my previous experience coming to you for advice was very positive so I don't want this to come across as any type of criticism of your integrity. That said, I do think the groups like Gender gap task force, and Feminism etc are very likely to have strong feelings in one direction. It's also not clear that this name is strictly a Feminism or Gender gap task force question. Consider if we were debating "Chair (roll)" vs "Chairperson", would it have made sense to notify those projects? Springee (talk) 04:09, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Springee: GGTF watchers are a very mixed bag, because people who opposed the project began watching it too. WikiProject Feminism isn't active. I alerted GGTF and WikiProject Feminism in March, and as you saw it didn't help. The thing that made the difference here is CENT. I used CENT this time, but not last time, because now the issue has become really intractable, and I felt I could justify it. It's important to stay away from the idea that it's canvassing if we inform a page where most people might want change, but pages with watchers more likely to want chairman are neutral. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:34, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  It's only "intractable" because one or two of the original correspondents refused to accept the closures and kept opening it up again. Presumably they will continue this behaviour until they get their way at which point all we'll hear is "it's been decided". Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Fyunck(click), Springee Just thought I'd comment that I, though a member of WiR, was not aware of previous proposals on this title, and discovered the current one through CENT. I do not look at WiR every day, but I do look at AfD, where CENT appears - and where all the other editors, of wildly varying views, who participate in AfDs would see it too. RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SarahSV: That is not a diff for WikiProject Politics this is. lol –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  MJL, that is most peculiar. This is my post. The diff looks okay, but it goes to the wrong page. Thanks for pointing it out. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:27, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I tend to concur with Fyunck that selectively notifying GGTF, etc., is obviously canvassing; the only effect it could possibly have is vote-stacking by bringing in editors who almost uniformly share the same viewpoint on such matters (and I say that as someone who also shares it). However, the CENT notification probably mitigates the actual effect of this, in this case. Still, the canvasser, being an admin, certainly knows better.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:13, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @SMcCandlish: if you talk about me, please ping me. I'm very familiar with the GGTF. A significant number of editors arrived there over the years with strong views against the kinds of changes that a lot of us want to see. If I were deliberately canvassing to achieve one result, I'd consider not posting there. Ditto WikiProject Feminism. I intend to continue letting people on those pages know about feminist and gender issues they might be interested in, because it would be absurd not to. See WP:APPNOTE: "The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion." SarahSV ^(talk) 04:26, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Selective quotation. The important part you left off is "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions", which is exactly what's happening when you notify GGTF of something like this (which has nothing to do with closing the gender gap in our article coverage, but plays directly to the politics of the vast majority of that project's participants. The fact that some trolling happened a long time ago is irrelevant; anyone watching/participating there knows WT:GGTF is overwhelmingly dominated by a left-progressive Gestalt. I'm making a general point here, since I also share most of the politics of the bulk of the GGTF regulars. If you were going to notify cent, there was no reason to attract the specific attention of GGTF which will predictably produce a bloc vote (they'll find out about it in their own time like the rest of the editorship). It's a bloc vote in favor of the result you and I both want from this RM, but it's still a bloc vote. The effect one has is to temporarily bolster one side of a discussion, but at the cost of the resulting consensus (if any) looking less real and more a WP:FALSECONSENSUS the more that a clear bloc responds. It's a "win the battle to lose the war" problem. Starting a few years ago, I noticed this effect happening, and avoidance of it has been very effective. E.g., for WP:BREEDCAPSRFC, I used VPPOL and CENT but studiously avoided attracting the individual or group attention of breeds-focused editors (e.g. by pining individuals or by spamming the breeds-focused wikiprojects) because I knew that, while obviously interested, they were almost unanimously of a single opinion on the matter (they form a bloc). They got their say the same way everyone else did, trickling in as they noticed the discussion was open. The resulting outcome was what I predicted it would be, and what those people argued for, but it's a strong consensus because the community made it organically; it wasn't piled-on by a canvassed [on purpose or inadvertently] faction. It matters.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  You're factually wrong about the GGTF re: "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions." That's all I'm going to say, because there's no point in arguing about it. Informing the GGTF about gender-related discussions is perfectly valid. If you want it to stop, you'll have to gain consensus for your position. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I came here because of the WP:MOS talk page link, but GGTF seems like an obvious choice for a place to put this conversation. Looking at the discussion a above, it looks like editors who follow gender issues and edit in that topic area are participating in the RfC, and I have a really hard time seeing why that shouldn't be the case given the subject matter. If there are other pages that are also relevant, then maybe someone should add more notifications, but I don't think the purpose of prohibiting canvassing is to limit participation by interested and knowledgeable editors. Nblund ^talk 05:21, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I made my !vote on the since we're discussing process down here, I concur with the other comments that opening this RM was very poor judgement. Born2cycle I am usually a strong defender of you and your conduct, because you care deeply about the RM process and article titling and more often than not the thing that people label as "tendentious conduct" is simply an attempt to uphold well-trodden Wikipedia protocol and policy. You've got this one badly wrong, though. The original RM was contentious, the MRV equally so, and it was closed as endorse. That means it's time to leave the issue be for some time. JFG suggested a moratorium of a year, and I think that's sensible. Starting a fresh RM, proposing a title which is very clearly much worse than the originally proposed title of Chair (officer), is not helpful to anyone and just prolongs the agony further, because I highly doubt this will achieve consensus. Crucially, there's nothing broken about the current title - it is demonstrably far and away the WP:COMMONNAME for the topic, and there is also plenty of evidence that the term "chairman" is valid for women as well as men. In short, there is WP:NODEADLINE for any possible moves that might take place. Please withdraw this RM, and let's come back in a year with a fresh proposal to move to Chair (officer), and I imagine I will support that. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amakuru, as is usual, we agree about the main point; in this case that Chair (officer) is the best title choice for this article per WP:CRITERIA. And of course we’re not the only ones who see this. But the fact is that that first RM at the top of this page, which expressly proposed moving this article to that title, did not gain consensus for that. That particular ship has sailed and reproposing that would be disruptive. Surely you agree with that too?

  Where we disagree is about whether Chairperson or Chairman is the better title of the two (my support is in the nom, your oppose is in the survey), and whether the first RM showed consensus for Chairperson. Since recognizing that consensus in the first RM required some inference that many were unwilling to do, it became obvious to me that the only way to persuade many of the existence of that consensus is with an RM making this particular proposal to move to Chairperson. As to the appropriateness of this RM at this time, even the closer of the first RM, Red Slash, notes “that there is absolutely no requirement for any sort of waiting period to raise a second move request, especially a second move request to a different name”.

  If I was wrong and this RM was getting pummeled with Opposes calling for a SNOW close, as was the case with the previous RM which was started while negotiations with the closer of the first RM were underway, and pressure for the MRV was building, then I would withdraw. But that’s clearly not the case. In fact, it looks like we’re moving towards a consensus for a title that I genuinely believe will remain stable here. And title stability is of course my ultimate goal, as always. —В²C ☎ 11:29, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Born2cycle: so you're happy to move to the third best title for the article? I strongly dispute that that would lead to any kind of stability of the Yogurt or New York type. The only title that can achieve that is Chair (officer). You support that, I support "Chair (officer)", several other opposers above also do, and it's the only title that really has a hope of getting consensus in an RM, perhaps in six months or so if you think it's too soon to try that again now. That should be the goal here, not moving to a title that nobody really likes, and which frankly is hardly used in the real world. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:57, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Not quite. I genuinely think Chairperson is far preferable to the sexist Chairman, and believe if we had more female editors this wouldn’t even be a question (notwithstanding the counter-examples of certain women going with the Chairman title). I think this move succeeding gets us to stability one of two ways. Either it becomes the stable title itself or it is the stepping stone that gets us away from Chairman and eventually allows choosing between Chairperson and a disambiguated Chair title which may in turn be the eventual stable choice. Either way, it’s a step towards stability. —В²C ☎ 12:18, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• For anyone who might be worried that all the participants here are acting in good faith, check out this recent edit. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Joel B. Lewis (talk • contribs) 12:51, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Regarding N-grams and WP:COMMONNAME: Mental retardation, wet dream, and Gypsy are all more common than intellectual disability, nocturnal emission, or Romani, respectively, in the google N-grams corpus. Wikipedia uses the less common names for article titles in all three cases. The google corpus is not necessarily a great metric for encyclopedic language, and WP:COMMONNAME is just one consideration out of many in article titles. I think it would be heavy-handed to completely dismiss editors who are citing that policy without any additional context, but I do think that !voters who just say "chairman is more common" really need come up with something better than N-gram results if their !votes going to be given full weight. Nblund ^talk 03:20, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:COMMONNAME is not just "one consideration" - it is the predominant one representing Recognizability under the WP:CRITERIA. Gender neutrality or any other MOS considerations are not at all part of WP:TITLES. In fact, WP:POVNAME explicitly points out that sometimes our titles are not neutral in the conventional sense. Your claims are simply an attempt to undermine TITLES, the -only- policy which governs page names, because you know that doing so is the only tactic for excusing the WP:IDONTLIKEIT / WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS claims of the Support votes. The only votes that should have full weight here are the ones that argue on TITLES grounds, as stated in the header of this RM and in keeping with RM closing instructions. As for your list of WP:OTHERSTUFF, perhaps those need to be re-evaluated. -- Netoholic @ 03:39, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The policy itself says that editors should also consider all five of the criteria for article titles. Precision, consistency, and accuracy often trump commonality. More importantly, WP:COMMONNAME specifies that we're looking for common names in reliable sources, and the google N-grams corpus doesn't account for reliability at all. Intellectual disability is a useful illustration of why that is a problem: the term "mental retardation" is far more common in the corpus, but it's virtually non-existent in high-quality reliable sources published in the last decade or so. Nblund ^talk 04:11, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Didn't want to forget to disprove this assertion. Searching in Google Scholar for these terms from 2009-2019 (aka "the last decade") - "mental retardation" gets 119k results, "intellectual disability" gets 115k results. Not quite, as you said, "virtually non-existent in high-quality reliable sources". Please, please stop making things up that can be so easily shown to be false statements. Its almost seeming like you're intentionally trying to obfuscate and mislead. -- Netoholic @ 14:22, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The the DSM-V adopted new terminology in 2013, and "intellectual disability" has become far more prevalent in the ensuing years in the relevant literature. It's not the name of the condition, and it's silly to cite a corpus that includes fiction and other non-medical texts to try to name something. "Common" doesn't mean common for everyone. It means "common" in reliable sources, and assessing reliability depends on context and requires a modicum of effort beyond Googling. Case in point: the first page of results "mental retardation" after 2013 turns up three books that are actually from the 80s and 90s, a number of papers from open access journals in genetics, and one article that is actually about the changing terminology itself. None of these are particularly compelling compared to the position of the APA. Nblund ^talk 15:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anything to avoid apologizing for using the phrase "virtually non-existent in high-quality reliable sources", eh? Even if you cut it to just Google Scholar sources to 2018-present, there are still 17,400 results for MR and 18,400 results for ID. Please just apologize for using a clearly misleading and provable falsehood. APA guideline is a consideration, but as you know we don't use WP:OFFICIALNAMES, and if the mental health industry is slow to accept new terminology, then wider society is even slower too. -- Netoholic @ 16:15, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When I say "high quality reliable sources" I mean top journals in the relevant field. I definitely don't mean a pre-print server paper, or a book from 1986, or a book from 1985,or a patent appliction. You misinterpreted me if you thought that was my argument. "Wider society" is not a reliable source, and I'm not aware of a policy that says that prohibits the use official names. Reasonable people can disagree over how to weight these considerations, but the argument that common name is the only policy and google searches are the only metric is just silly. We often use less popular titles when popular titles are problematic. WP:COMMONNAME even says this. Nblund ^talk 17:18, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More moving the goalposts, avoidance of intellectual responsibility, strawmanning, cherrypicking, and obfuscation. I'm done with your dishonest tactics and will leave it to others. -- Netoholic @ 17:32, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cherry picking? I listed the first four search results in order. Nblund ^talk 17:48, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, N-grams are basically useless on matters like this, for numerous reasons, including unreliability of the indexed material, impossibility of being certain of the context (e.g. use in cases where the gender of the referent is actually known), the corpora including a lot of fiction, uncertainty of the age of the material (republication and quotation of material from, say, 1942 in a book published in 2007 will count as "2007" material in the corpora), etc., etc. A N-gram can be very partial evidence in cases where one usage is vastly preferable, regardless of dialect, and has been so for several generations, but it can be misleading, useless data in edge cases like this.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:13, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  The above is just simply more deconstruction of our policy and the tools we use. N-grams are basically useless on matters like this has no proof, no justification, its just a statement of opinion. "Use commonly recognizable names" is our policy - and Ngrams is a measure of common use of terms. Its a tool we use very often in move discussions, and there is nothing about this one that, despite your uncited claims, makes it an "edge case" with a disparity such as this - even for women only. There is NO SOURCE presented anywhere in this RM discussion which counters the well-established fact that "chairman" is the most commonly-used term - even prescriptive sources like style guides acknowledge that this to still be the case. Yair rand also brought evidence above from the NOW Corpus which indexes web-based newspapers and magazines from 2010 to the present - nicely filling the gap in Ngrams reports and again demonstrating the common use of "chairman". You are trying to turn Wikipedia into another of these prescriptive resources that tells the world how you think it should speak, rather than humbly describing the world as it is. You know, I can somewhat respect the support voters that are at least honest with their feelings about this even when they acknowledge it to be against our policies - but I don't think anyone should respect those that want to tear down those fundamental policies just because they are inconvenient to a prescriptive agenda. -- Netoholic @ 11:10, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The justification is in the next clause of the sentence. If the policy is "always use the N-gram viewer" then it would say that, and I'd be starting the discussion to move Sexual intercourse -> fuck. But the actual policy says that we should consider accuracy, neutrality, precision, and consistency and that we should measure commonality by looking at reliable sources, not just counting books. Nblund ^talk 13:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your novice use of Ngrams may be the reason you distrust it (or claim to in this one circumstance to get your way). First, you are comparing a verb to a noun, and second, as I'm sure is obvious, "fuck" is often simply an exclamation unrelated to sex, so your comparison is hardly representative. -- Netoholic @ 13:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good lord. It's a joke dude. I gave substantive examples above. I'm glad to see you at least acknowledge that context and parts of speech matter, but I don't distrust N-grams corpus at all: Google never claimed that they were assembling a database of appropriate Wikipedia titles based on an authoritative compendium of reliable sources. I trust hammers to drive in nails, but you're trying to wipe your ass with one. "Don't use the claw end you rube, hold it backward and wipe with the handle!" Nblund ^talk 14:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yep, I liked your "substantive example" above about mental retardation. Take about a joke. -- Netoholic @ 14:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• A pretty strong case is made at Talk:Mail carrier#Mail carrier that "Mail carrier" is an awful neologism without sources. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:59, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SmokeyJoe: exactly. And yet the title remains Mail carrier. How long do you think an RM there would last before it was SNOW closed? 2 days? Or 2 hours? Why do you think that is, and why do you think the similar reasoning does not apply here? By the way, USPS is using "carrier" in the job listings (City Carrier and Rural Carrier) at about.usps.com/careers/career-opportunities/delivery-operations. And mail carrier is a common description on job search websites. --В²C ☎ 15:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just saying. Mail carrier is a poor example, unlike the others, I’d have not included it. I guess, give it a few more years, and either there will be no more physical letter deliveries, or humans won’t be doing them. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:48, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Fyunck(click): You are very active in this discussion, and I wish to note your partisan 'gotcha' comment above. Explain, like I am five, how the two groups of sub-projects [Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, Feminism, Women in Red] and [military, firearms, capitalism, Trump] are diametrically opposed. Posting on those latter projects would be absurd, so what are you implying about those users who respond at either (presumably mutually exclusive) sets of projects. What is the purpose of your commentary? cygnis insignis 15:03, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Born2cycle: I've posted a request at WP:AN/RFC for one or more closers. Given how contentious this is, it might make sense to have more than one. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:25, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Nom's comment: Interesting consistent trend. Back in the second (ranked) survey of the earlier RM I note 18 out of 30 favored Chairperson over Chairman - that's 60%. For some reason this consensus was not recognized by the closer of that RM, which is why I nominated this move, to confirm what I thought was already clear. And the consensus here does seem to be the same; even a bit stronger. As of now, over 60% of the respondents (42/68) support the move to Chairperson, and that's how it was last week too (28/43). --В²C ☎ 17:33, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I just did the same count and got about the same result though I did count the "too soon" and similar replies in the total so I said 42/70. This is about at my threshold where I would argue that a pure vote changes from "no consensus" to "consensus for change". Since we have to show a consensus to change I've always felt that was something more than just a simple majority. However I also see two factors working against a simple vote (beyond WP:NOTAVOTE). I think both sides have made some good arguments and if I were the closing editor (which I cannot be) I'm not sure I would feel that the "support" side has made a stronger case vs the "oppose" side. But if the balance of facts/arguments are about equal then perhaps numbers should force the issue. Then I return to my question regarding is the vote sufficiently in favor of change to call it a new consensus. By numbers alone I think we have crossed that line but... I think a case for improper notification can be made. Earlier I supported that view and along with stating I don't think it was done in any type of bad faith. Regardless, it muddies the water regarding numbers. Of course my read should be seen in context of my opposing "Chairperson" but supporting "Chair (office/position)". Springee (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the results of the ranked survey in the earlier RM, where there was no "improper notification" AFAIK, tracking the results here should remove any concern about the effect of "improper notification". As to preferring disambiguated Chair, quite a few of us do, but that was clearly/explicitly not favored by consensus in the previous RM. As I noted below, I think our best bet to get there is via "Chairperson", though I think this title ending up at Chairperson is still far better than the sexist Chairman. I agree there are strong arguments on both sides, and as a champion of COMMONNAME I sure do appreciate the chief opposition argument here, but I have been convinced that in some cases we do have to make other considerations and sometimes have to choose a title other than the most commonly used name. Especially in a case like this where usage is clearly changing. The ngrams data only takes us to around 2000, so that's not much help except to confirm that Chairman usage has been in a nosedive since the 1970s. And that's in published book usage which is inherently on a significant delay relative to modern everyday usage that governs user expectations. Even investopedia doesn't use chairman. Nor should we, and Chairperson is a reasonable alternative natural disambiguation to Chair. --В²C ☎ 18:21, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is both misleading and inappropriate for a nom to do this kind of calculation. What purpose does it serve? The closer will not simply do a strict count of votes, but will look at the arguments made WP:RMCI#Determining consensus) in recognition primarily of WP:Article titles policy. Also, at this moment, we're still two days away from the end of the standard one-week RM discussion period, and they may even relist it for longer, so this "count" is premature. Maybe the strategy is to try to get this closed early, at a moment when you think the raw numbers are in your favor? -- Netoholic @ 19:11, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for moving this down here; better. While consensus is not determined by simply counting votes, vote counts do matter, a lot, especially in cases like this where there are strong arguments on both sides. I'm not the first participant/nom to comment on how a discussion is going before it has concluded, but my point in this case is to bring attention to the fact that the Chairperson:Chairman support ratio here closely matches that in the ranked survey of the first RM, about 60:40, which I think is interesting. Your mileage may vary. I'm in no hurry get this closed; that was a problem with the first RM. --В²C ☎ 19:38, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • The full survey in the last RM was 12–12–4–2, but certainly there is no reason to hurry to close this. Maybe someone will come up with an argument no one else has thought of. Strength of argument is still the key for a closer. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Looking only at the first choice of each participant in a ranked survey is missing the point of a ranked survey, especially if you're trying to determine if there is consensus favoring one between any two of the choices, like between Chairperson and Chairman. That's my point. That looking deeper in the ranked survey is accurate. That is, the 60/40 preference of Chairperson over Chairman elicited from that multi-choice ranking survey matches, so far, the more traditional A vs B direct survey results between the two we're getting here. --В²C ☎ 20:40, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
          • The survey in the last RM was a non-starter and was already considered in that RM close and move review. This whole thread about point-in-time vote tallies by the nom and reminiscing about that survey is irrelevant to the current RM, and I'd suggest hatting this whole thread. -- Netoholic @ 20:52, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
            • The whole point of both surveys was the same: to determine if there is consensus to change this article's title. The fact that both are indicating similar results about 60:40 consensus between Chairperson and Chairman is very pertinent to the whole point of this RM. Of course, if you don't like those results and their similarities an immature response would be to hat the discussion that brings attention this fact. --В²C ☎ 21:44, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

              The ranking section of the survey really only helped to see if there were two that stood out so that we could have a runoff two-item RM. It did help to establish chairman and chairperson as the choices, which we have here and in the last RM. So now we let this RM run its course to see what the (mostly) general populous wants between the two. Time will tell. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:51, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

              The ranking section did far more than that. Each participant ranked all four choices relative to each other, so for each participant you can easily determine preferences between any two choices, including whether each favors Chairman over Chairperson or vice versa. For example, I ranked Chairperson 3rd and Chairman 4th, indicating I preferred Chairperson over Chairman, even though Chairperson was only my 3rd choice. And the results of doing that for each person is that 60% favor Chairperson over Chairman, which, again, is very similar to what we're seeing here. Surprise, surprise? Not much. --В²C ☎ 23:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.