Wikipedia:User pages/RfC for stale drafts policy restructuring: Difference between revisions

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Wikipedia policies and guidelines Wikipedia proposals When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Background: The issue with WP:STALEDRAFT was apparently long-term. There were various changes to the policy, whether it was good or bad, community-vetted or not is now out of the question, since we're making this RfC. There have been moves across namespaces under the guise of "improvement", "more attention" and such. Again, whether they were right or wrong or if there was any actual improvement or not is not the question here. The consensus developed in this RfC will be the way to go forward. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 10:53, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Related pages: WP:UP
If you want to add a proposal or a sub-proposal, please add them in order, while keeping the proposal code in mind. Please post proposals in such a way that there are limited options, you're welcome to start subsections under Discussions.
Closing instructions: The RfC must go on for a full 30 days (720 hours) from its start date to give enough time to consolidate consensus. In case a proposal has no consensus, it should be continued until one emerges. The ones with clear-cut consensus should be closed. Also, the proposals should be closed by preferably more than one person.

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

As of 16:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Should GNG apply to drafts (A1)

Support A1

Oppose A1

• No, a draft does not need to pass GNG. However, GNG must be met before moving a draft into Mainspace. Blueboar (talk) 11:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No, of course not. Drafts are where pages are worked on to prepare them for the mainspace. Requiring them to meet mainspace standards would be absurd. JohnCD (talk) 14:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No - the purpose of the draft namespace is to allow users a place to write articles before they're ready for the mainspace. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No It's the whole point of drafts. Hobit (talk) 17:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No but a failure of being able to pass GNG is a bar to keeping a draft which is why this is the wrong question. It's the equivalent of noting the difference between whether a mainspace page could move past a stub or does it move past a stub: the first matters for the baseline question, the second is extra. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No, but see my note below. This is like asking "Should we delete everything on Wikipedia?". The answer is yes, but that doesn't mean there's consensus to keep everything on Wikipedia. Similarly, we'll obviously find that no-one wants to delete every draft that currently fails GNG, but that doesn't mean we should keep every draft that currently fails GNG. ~ Rob^Talk 17:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No I have a number of drafts that I'm not convinced pass GNG, but I'm not sure yet, and I see no reason for them to be deleted while I'm figuring that out. Sam Walton (talk) 19:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No. The whole point of a draft is that it is something not yet ready for article space. This may be because obsucre off-line sources are being sought, or indeed because it is a placeholder for a person or subject not yet notable, but plausibly likely to become notable in future. Or for any of a number of other possible reasons. Deleting for lack of demonstrated notability makes the existence of draft space pointless. and moving drafts to mainspace with the intention of deleting them for not having demonstrated notability is a particulalry obnioxious form of gaming the system and disripting the project to make a point. DES ^(talk) 19:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No A draft is an unfinished page that is being put in a hold rather than immediately launched into articlespace, it doesn't have to pass WP:N from the get-go. And as an unfinished page it may not have evidence of meeting any tenet of WP:N - including WP:GNG - yet when it's first posted but may receive one during subsequent editing. But if a draft doesn't meet WP:N it probably should not be moved to articlespace.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:46, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No. Absolutely no. Strongest possible oppose. This is absurd and bizarre. Does this mean that drafts for which the author has not yet established notability should be deleted, so that the author has to keep them in Word and restore them manually? Even proposing this appears to be part of some crusade about drafts. Whatever the problem is, requiring GNG for drafts is the wrong answer. So what is the problem? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Robert McClenon: The editor who posed this question is strongly on the "keep everything" side of this debate, actually. There have been several "insane" questions like this posed recently to later be held up as proof that we can't consider whether a draft actually helps the encyclopedia at all. See my comment below regarding this question being the wrong question. Note that zero editors have supported this, as should be the case! ~ Rob^Talk 23:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No. A draft is a work in progress. The expectation is that at some point, it will meet GNG, but if it doesn't now, that just means it's not finished yet. It could be that the subject is notable and the draft just hasn't been fleshed out yet, or it could be that the subject isn't notable today, but has the potential to be in the future (i.e. WP:TOOSOON). Either way, it's perfectly valid to keep the draft around. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No this completely contradicts the point of drafts. The whole idea is that they can be incomplete and not necessarily suitable for mainspace in their current form. That includes evidence of notability. Hut 8.5 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No: If GNG applied to drafts it would defeat the purpose of a draft. I myself has a couple of drafts in progress right now that would not meet GNG but will in the future. --Majora (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No: Searching for sources on an obscure topic, especially offline sources, is difficult and time-intensive. Editors should have the choice to keep their work as a draft while they attempt to complete this process. Altamel (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No - That's one of the major distinctions between the namespaces. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No Drafts are a perfect way to work on establishing notability without worrying about premature deletion. clpo13_(talk) 07:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No, that would be silly. Stifle (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No, exactly as Ricky81682 put it, building on Bluboar's more compressed rationale. I was thinking the same thing but would have put it in about 5 sentences. Heh. I will add that I have several times "rescued" things from AfD specifically to keep them around as userspaced reminders to check every year or so: a) whether something has become clearly notable or not, that seemed like it would; or b) whether more sources have turned up for something that clearly must be notable but for which the GNG-compliant sourcing has been barely too elusive (sometimes because few of the sources are in English, or they're very academic and the journals are I need are paywalled).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments A1

• Not the right question. No-one is claiming that every draft should meet GNG, so this is going to get a pile on of no's and then be misinterpreted. The real question here is A3, which I've listed below. ~ Rob^Talk 12:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. A draft can only have two states: "passing GNG" or "not passing GNG", there's no mid-ground. What you're saying is vague and subject to misinterpretation. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 13:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The rhetoric is nice and technically correct, but I can say the same thing. A draft can only have two states: "coming close to passing GNG" and "not coming close to passing GNG". There's no mid-ground. You could (and probably will) say that "coming close" is vague, but to be honest, GNG is vague. It's based on good-faith attempts to produce common sense outcomes at AfD. It evolves over time. I see no reason why we can't do the same with "coming close" - it worked incredibly well in establishing a firmer idea of what GNG is. ~ Rob^Talk 14:45, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since when is GNG not well-defined. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:03, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Since always. I mean the _words_ are well defined, but serious and knowledgeable people can have serious debates about if a given topic passes the GNG or not. Does a 2 paragraph obituary in the NYT count? What if it was in 1930? What if it was in the Chicago Tribune? Or the Lansing Observer? What if it's 4 paragraphs? Etc. 90%+ of the cases are clear cut, but the rest can be tricky and subject to honest debate. Hobit (talk) 17:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Misleading question we apply GNG to drafts all the time, it is only a matter of when. No one should be testing my potentially notable topic while I'm building up the article. However, if I abandon the draft for a long time, the topic should be tested against GNG as part of a decision about the suitability of the draft. Even a draft that is an hour old should be testable against GNG though. Say I start writing up an article on my kid's wonderful report card - it should be deleted quickly because we all know it fails GNG. Legacypac (talk) 17:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, boy, if you're going to upload your kid's wonderful report card, you can delete it under any of Wikipedia's wonderful policies, you don't need GNG for that. You and Rob can call the question misleading as long as you want but that won't make your statement truer. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 17:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which policy? Just U5? What it was in draftspace where that doesn't apply? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTWEBHOST covers your kid's report card. A2soup (talk) 17:46, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about this – I'm currently doing research on racial achievement gaps in kindergarten and first grade. My findings are interesting to me, and they have some type of chance of eventually being published in a scholarly journal. If they were published in a scholarly journal, they're highly unlikely to ever become notable, because the area I'm looking at is very niche. If I created a draft about my research, is it WP:NOTWEBHOST or not? I would say it is. I imagine you would say it is not, because it looks vaguely encyclopedic and it has some highly improbable path to notability (like <0.0001%). That's where we need to find the line. ~ Rob^Talk 18:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If the draft is in your userspace, and it's clear that you are writing a draft, not keeping track of your data or something, I would say definitely keep it. If the draft is long stale and you are long gone, blanking with {{Userpage blanked}} could be indicated for OR issues. But in general, you seem like you want to improve the encyclopedia and you seem like the sort of person we want to have around. I might drop you a note to say that the draft is unlikely to end up in mainspace as its own article, but why would I delete your draft? That just seems like unfriendliness that doesn't benefit the encyclopedia at all. @BU Rob13: why would you want to delete this hypothetical draft? A2soup (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If Wikipedia gains a reputation as someplace you can host vanity content, then we'll end up with the entirety of wikia and all other semi-encyclopedic content in the draft space. If we're offering free web hosting to anyone who registers an account, why would anyone pay to host such a site and/or use a site with ads like wikia? It's a problem of incentives. (I should have specified in my question to ignore my other activity, by the way. While I don't think it's a good idea to treat established editors differently, I can kind of buy the "don't piss off productive editors" argument, since hosting their vanity content may well be a net positive. That's why everyone's been focusing on stale drafts, where the editors have not been productive.) ~ Rob^Talk 22:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@BU Rob13: I'm not quite sure what you mean by "vanity" content, but if you mean autobiographical stuff or stuff about your company, then I am okay with deletion. Per WP:NOTWEBHOST, that is "encyclopedia-unrelated". What I don't want to delete are good-faith attempts at drafts by people who either didn't understand WP:N or WP:V or were otherwise incompetent (so the page may look like crap). That's why I specified "good-faith, non-problematic" drafts in my support in section A3. In these cases, the "problem of incentives" goes the other way, since we should encourage these sorts of drafts, not discourage them. As I noted in my support in A3, trying stuff out before you understand all the policies and wikimarkup is an important part of BOLD, and userspace is the designated safe place to do it. With that said, are you in favor of deleting good-faith, non-problematic drafts? A2soup (talk) 23:19, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@QEDK: I'd appreciate you striking my name from your comment, as I never called your question misleading. I just said it was the wrong question. If you wanted to know why the sky is blue, you could ask the question "What color is the sky?" That question wouldn't be misleading, but it also wouldn't get you the answer you're seeking. The question we're trying to answer here is where the line lies between "keep" and "delete" at MfD. You asked whether editors support an ultra-deletionist line, which they clearly don't. Even the editors you disagree with, including myself, agree that this line goes way too far in the "delete" direction. It's not a misleading question, but it also is entirely unhelpful for finding the line. A3 is a much more interesting question that asks about a line far closer to the likely reality. ~ Rob^Talk 18:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, both mean false, but I get your point. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 19:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, misleading implies malice whereas wrong does not. While we disagree, I don't have any doubt you're doing what you think is best for the encyclopedia (and I hope you can say the same about me). ~ Rob^Talk 22:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Perceptions vary, I'm not going to beat you up for it. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My use of the term misleading was to say that the question will mislead users to vote in a way that will not result in an answer that can be used properly. It's just a badly worded question, or very cleverly worded if you want a result you can attack people trying to improve the project with. Legacypac (talk) 08:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Wrong question. We can only judge an article by what is on the page in front of us. Drafts, by their very nature, will not initially be of the standard required for articles. Equally, there should be a reasonable expectation that they achieve that standard in some non-infinite timeframe. I am assuming here that we're not talking about obvious no-hopers (WP:NFT violations) but about valid attempts to create drafts with a view to making them articles. Guy (Help!) 09:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What should be done after it's deemed that a draft fails GNG (A2)

Possible actions: Delete, Blank, Redirect, Merge and Redirect

• It Depends - If the draft is in Userspace, either do nothing (it does no harm to leave it), or adopt it and continue to work on it yourself. If the draft is in Draftspace, remove it from Draftspace (by either deleting it completely, or by findingvsomeone willing to adopt it and moving it to their userspace for further work). Blueboar (talk) 12:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Not delete - see my support in A3 below. Blanking is acceptable if {{Userpage blanked}} is used, but ideally there should be some other reason to blank, like mild promotional concerns or avoiding future maintenance work. Redirect and merge/redirect can also work if there is an appropriate target. A2soup (talk) 17:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• It Depends If the topic does not meet GNG and it's obvious it never will - delete it. If the draft in it's current state does not prove GNG but there is a good faith belief that can be fixed, put in Draft space and hope it gets improved. Merging and redirecting are other options, for example if the topic fits within a larger GNG topic in mainspace. Legacypac (talk) 18:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• It depends. The default should be to do nothing. If it is actively harmful, delete it as per the appropriate policy. If it is useless and likely to remain so, blank it. If it is useless and a through search and discussion concludes that it can never be useful, it might possibly be deleted. DES ^(talk) 19:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• It depends. If the content is useless delete per my reasoning below. If it can be redirected to an alternate article that can be done. Content that is still worthwhile should be merged.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• It depends. Question fails to argue the "stale" portion so if the editor isn't active (I don't care if they haven't touched the page in a decade), then we can consider what to do. If the editor is active, keep it there. If the editor is not active, it can be deleted, it can be draftified, it can be adopted or it can be left alone, it depends. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Invalid question if the answer to A1 is "no". Which it appears to be. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Although I doubt, A1 will pass, you should always vote in the sub-proposals in a way as if you think the main will pass. Kind of like fall-back. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 03:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If it's determined that GNG applies to drafts and a draft is determined to unequivocally fail GNG, that draft should be deleted. This goes for drafts in any namespace. clpo13_(talk) 07:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft space: delete. Userspace: blank. Stifle (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• It depends, per Ricky81682's expansion on Blueboar again. Youse guys should directly collaborate a lot. :-) DESiegel's points are also valid, but I don't think they address the issue; they're more pre-conditions (i.e., we already know that if it's an attack piece, it can be deleted regardless of any of these concerns, and we already know it's kept by default, since the question here is what to do when we're questioning that default in a particular case). And Smokey Joe is correct that the question is invalid (in fallacy terms, it's "assuming the conclusion" a.k.a. "begging the question", a form of circular reasoning).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments A2

Should drafts be kept indefinitely on the project if they likely will never meet GNG? (A3)

Support A3

• If not passing GNG is the only issue, then it does no harm to keep the draft in userspace. Obviously we should not keep drafts with other problems (BLP violations, attack pages, copyright issues, hoaxes, etc) Blueboar (talk) 12:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support keeping good-faith, non-problematic (no BLP violations, SOAPBOX, egregious promotion, etc.) drafts indefinitely (at least in userspace). The best way to approach this is a simple cost-benefit analysis. The costs of deleting userspace drafts are editor time to !vote on the MfD discussion, admin time to make the deletion, and the small chance that the author will be alienated and less likely to contribute to Wikipedia in the future (which does happen - see here). What benefits outweigh these costs? (To clear up misconceptions about benefits of deletion, deleting does not save any server space, deleted pages are retained. Also, userspace is default NOINDEX, so userspace drafts do not appear in search engine results.) Often cited is the need to keep the draft "backlog" clean so that drafts worth improving can be easily found and draft "maintenance" is easier. However, neither of these goals require deletion. To make finding good drafts easier, it is more precise and efficient to categorize drafts as high, mid, and low potential at the abandoned drafts project. I am still confused as to what "maintenance" is required for drafts in other people's userspaces, but any maintenance demands can be reduced to zero by replacing the draft's content with {{Userpage blanked}}. Notably, both categorizing and blanking with template are quicker and easier than deletion, not requiring discussion or admin time. These actions are also unlikely to alienate editors. So they serve all the putative benefits of deletion with none of the costs.

In conclusion, when draft deletion is compared to the alternative actions of categorization and blanking with {{Userpage blanked}}, it has no benefits that offset its costs of discussion time, admin time, and potential user alienation. The only rational conclusion is to not delete.

I want to offer a final, different argument as well. When we delete pages, we discourage editors from creating other such pages in the future. I think an important part of BOLD is that newbies should try to create articles, even if they suck at it and don't know GNG. Obviously, it's a bit disruptive for them to be BOLD like this in mainspace, which is why userspace drafts are such a good thing - they allow newbie BOLDness without disrupting the encyclopedia. Newbies creating drafts in userspace rather than mainspace is a positive thing that should be encouraged. The purpose of userspace drafts is not only to develop articles, it is also as a place for newbies to learn. Discouraging them by deleting the drafts is misguided. A2soup (talk) 17:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Copied verbatim from comment since supporting it technically nullifies the proposal. There's no definition of "likely". If this proposal is passed, it will just act in contradiction of the main proposal (A1). Allow me to explain, there's a reason a draft is a draft, it isn't suitable to be an article exactly why we should expect GNG out of it. If we delete a draft because it's not a subject notable enough, it doesn't serve a purpose. We could and should keep the content, in the case it ever becomes notable. Remember, deleting them gets nothing out of it. If it really makes you itch, you can blank them, how's that. Also, the server space thingy-thingy is a myth if you're still erring there. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 17:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Abusive things (BLP, copyright etc.) need to go. And quickly at that. It may be that Wikimedia needs to discuss really getting no index to no index to prevent SEO or other issues, but on the whole I think deleting other's draft work isn't a good idea as it can make this place seem a lot less friendly. Hobit (talk) 17:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think mere failure to provide evidence of meeting the GNG should be enough to justify deletion. For a start the question should be about notability more generally, an article which demonstrates that the subject meets an SNG would almost certainly be fine. Furthermore "likely will never meet GNG" really means "doesn't include evidence of meeting the GNG and I couldn't find anything when I Googled it", which precludes the possibility of the author finding sources that the reviewing editor doesn't. The nature of drafts as works in progress means this isn't much of a problem. This doesn't mean that such drafts need to remain here forever, just that "fails GNG" isn't adequate by itself as a deletion rationale. Hut 8.5 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• In userspace, if not meeting the GNG is the only issue, there is no issue. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:24, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Within reason, but by default: A precondition of this particular exercise is that it doesn't so blatantly fail GNG that it triggers something else like WP:NFT, WP:WEBHOST, etc. QEDK gets the point of it: "likely" is subjective, bordering on meaningless in this case. To elaborate: there is no mechanism to measure this "likelihood" as applied to the bulge of the bell curve on this. SmokeyJoe's quip is also pithy (again, within the constraint that the material doesn't fail some other criterion for keeping it).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose A3

• Oppose as per WP:NOTWEBHOST. Drafts should at least show some plausible path to notability to remain on the project. If I make a draft about my late aunt in her memory, that's very nice, but she's never going to become notable enough to provide anything of use to the project. So we shouldn't be hosting it. ~ Rob^Talk 12:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, but the decision to delete is not an obvious or clear-cut one. Unless some G13-like time-expiry speedy criterion is agreed, which has not gained consensus, deletion requires discussion. That is what WP:MFD is for. JohnCD (talk) 14:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose There are lots of places on the internet to host info about your garage band. If an article's subject itself is not notable then improving it will not bring it up to standards. Since draft space is for making articles then they should not be in draft space. We need to sort these and either promote or delete them otherwise the cruft will just accumulate and we will indeed be a web hosting provider. HighInBC 15:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@HighInBC: What about in the userspace? Many of the controversial drafts are in userspace. A2soup (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It does not matter what space it is in. Any article developed on Wikipedia should ultimately have a chance of being within our content requirements. There should be no special nook or cranny where something unfit for an encyclopedia can life out its life. This stuff needs to be sorted. I see AfD as a fine test to determine if something should be on Wikipedia. We are not talking about userpages here, we are talking about attempted articles. These pages are trying to be articles, they should be judged by that criteria. HighInBC 01:34, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You think that article criteria should apply to drafts, got it. A2soup (talk) 02:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - any page in the draftspace which will probably never be part of an article should be deleted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Od Mishehu: What about in the userspace? Many of the controversial drafts are in userspace. A2soup (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose the more junk that accumulates the harder it is to find notable topics and drafts that should be worked on. We can test the topic against inclusion criteria. We can also tell that a draft with very little info on an existing topic that is well covered is pointless. Legacypac (talk) 17:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose- This is an encyclopedia. I agree with BU Rob13- everything in draft space needs to show some plausible prospect of ever making its way into mainspace. Reyk _YO! 19:27, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Reyk: I don't mean to broken record here, but many of the controversial drafts are in userspace. Would you apply this same principle to userspace drafts as well as draftspace drafts? A2soup (talk) 20:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - per WP:NOTWEBHOST. Further, a number of not accepted drafts are undiscovered copyright violations or have other serious problems that merit their removal. Finally, when people look at drafts for stuff that needs removal for different reasons (e.g copyright violations as mentioned before) or search for content that is potentially salvageable (e.g by search draft titles or content) hopeless drafts decrease the signal-to-noise ratio.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:50, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we stop the application of WP:G12 to drafts - copyright infringement is currently and will always be deleted on sight. Re finding salvageable content, have you seen the categorization system at WT:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts? A2soup (talk) 20:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: NOTWEBHOST applies to all namespaces, including drafts. We aren't here to keep every pet project or nonsense draft that someone decides to start. Common sense should rein here. If after a through search nothing to indicate GNG has been passed it is time to let go, delete it, and move on. --Majora (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose This makes zero sense given the passage of G13. Why would current drafts that have been submitted for review be subject to deletion but because someone created a draft years ago, they aren't? If you want to argue the review portion, that's fine but it seems bizarrely against the concept of WP:OWN. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because some drafts aren't intended to be part of AfC? There is a reason G13 is limited to AfC. A2soup (talk) 23:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as written per WP:NOTWEBHOST. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:56, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I'd say let's take a bite that's easier to swallow than an ambiguous "stale drafts" argument: let's say 3 yr old stale drafts where the user hasn't edited in more than 1 yr should be deleted (I'd appreciate if anyone could run a WMFLabs query to see how many articles might meet this criterion). Once we achieve that benchmark, we could revisit this.--v/r - TP 04:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are close to 30,000 pages identified here Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts/Stale drafts that have not been edited in over a year. Very very few of these belong to active users and over 80% are in the userspace of users that never did anything else (throw away accounts). Legacypac (talk) 08:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• No, if it's found that a subject can't possibly be notable while in the draft namespace, then the draft should be deleted or moved to the userspace of a willing editor. WP:NOTWEBHOST applies here. The same should apply to userspace drafts, though only if the user is long-absent. clpo13_(talk) 07:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Drafts whether in draft space or userspace that are unlikely to become articles, whether because of notability or because nobody has worked on them or appears willing to do so, should be deleted. Stifle (talk) 08:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Of course not. That would be an open invitation to gaming the system, a blatant violation of "not a web host" and a positive boon to spammers. Guy (Help!) 09:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments A3

• "likely will never meet GNG" requires careful investigation and source analysis. It is not realistic to ask this to be done for every draft. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJoe (talk • contribs)
  • Then why do we expect this to be done for every mainspace article nominated for AfD? There's no real problems with such evaluations at AfD. What makes MfD different? ~ Rob^Talk 14:48, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(1) Because mainspace is the product of the project, and its quality is important to mainspace, unlike either userspace or draftspace.

(2) Because once in mainspace, the expectation is that the GNG is met by existing sources. Meeting the GNG means that there exist sources, not that the sources have not been added. It is very normal in drafting that the sources are still to be added, unlike in mainspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:28, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because we have different rules for what is acceptable and not acceptable in different namespaces. What is acceptable for MAINspace is (and should be) different than what is acceptable for DRAFTspace... Which is (and should be) different yet again from what is acceptable in USERspace. Blueboar (talk) 15:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's what this RfC is about - determining what standards have consensus. I'm just saying that the particular standard I'm recommending is not abnormal compared to similar standards we have at AfD. I'm not advocating GNG outside of mainspace. I'm advocating "likely will never meet GNG" as the standard for deletion. ~ Rob^Talk 15:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Join the club. The idea of "any" standard seems to be opposed. It's particularly frustrating when the same people then do supporting deleting a particular draft. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was pretty clear that my standard for the past few weeks, at least, has been "keep good-faith, non-problematic drafts", with drafts not meeting that description being open to deletion. A2soup (talk) 02:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• There's no definition of "likely". If this proposal is passed, it will just act in contradiction of the main proposal (A1). Allow me to explain, there's a reason a draft is a draft, it isn't suitable to be an article exactly why we should expect GNG out of it. If we delete a draft because it's not a subject notable enough, it doesn't serve a purpose. We could and should keep the content, in the case it ever becomes notable. Remember, deleting them gets nothing out of it. If it really makes you itch, you can blank them, how's that. Also, the server space thingy-thingy is a myth if you're still erring there. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Talking about server space is a straw man argument - no one else is worried about server space. There are lots of benefits to deleting unsuitable content - reduce the spread of error, make it easier to find and bring good topics to mainspace, discourage editors from spending time on inappropriate topics, reduce maintenance (tags, cats, images, links, vandalism fighting) on unnecessary pages. Legacypac (talk) 17:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're so wrong, I'm not going to start. Spread of error? If you take userspace drafts for reliable info, you're the idiot. Easier to find good topics? What. Also, you're not responsible for their maintenance (did you just say that cats and tags are used in drafts, lol), RC patrollers will do a much better job than you will. The pages you consider unnecessary are not unnecessary to everyone, mind you. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 10:10, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's go through these "benefits" of deletion:

• "reduce the spread of error" - Userspace drafts are default NOINDEX and have {{Userspace draft}} prominently displayed at the top. If it's not there, it should be put there (this action is far easier than deletion).
• "make it easier to find and bring good topics to mainspace" - This purpose is more precisely and efficiently (no discussion or admin time) served by categorizing the drafts by mainspace potential. This is currently possible - see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts.
• "discourage editors from spending time on inappropriate topics" - This is just a violation of WP:CHOICE; editors can work on whatever they want, so long as it is not problematic. If you think they should work on other things, a better approach than deleting their work is to, you know, tell them their efforts would be better spent elsewhere.
• "reduce maintenance (tags, cats, images, links, vandalism fighting)" - tags, cats, links, and vandal fighting are all related to keeping the page up to encyclopedic standards and functionality and thus unnecessary in userspace. Anyone doing "maintenance" on these things in other people's userspaces is just wasting their time. The only time maintenance is actually required is removing fair-use images. However, preventing this maintenance is more efficiently accomplished by just blanking with {{Userpage blanked}} than by having a weeklong deletion discussion that has to be admin closed.

Any other benefits you want to bring up? A2soup (talk) 18:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about you not telling everyone else that they aren't wasting time doing cleanup work? If it's a useful draft going somewhere, it's good work. I mean, I'd personally find it insulting if you came by and told I'm "wasting time" because I'm cleaning up a template following a project because you know that a particular old draft isn't going to be useful anywhere and rather than supporting getting rid of it, it's somehow my job to recognize useless old drafts so I'm not wasting time on them. That is how you drive actual editors away. Why is that a decade of systems of cleanup, non-free image patrol, template fixes all have be stopped in userspace (although there's no reason non-free image patrol shouldn't be, those are copyright violations) just because of the idea that drafts that aren't new AFC drafts can't ever be deleted? Why is that the very minority of people who decided that drafts must never be deleted are the ones who decide that a number of projects and cleanup work have to now distinguish between userspace and non-userspace? Would you want those clean-up tasks done on draftspace? Else, when exactly should a page be cleaned up? Only when it is ready for mainspace? Only when it is in mainspace? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that MfD deletion is a more efficient way to reduce maintenance work than replacing the content with {{Userpage blanked}}? My arguments are about deletion relative to other alternative solutions. Also, I can agree that maintaining useful drafts is good work, but you wouldn't delete those anyways - we're talking about drafts that people want to delete. A2soup (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Then we have essays and proposals to define what is "likely". Do you WP:N and WP:GNG was designed in a day? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• if it is merely likely that the draft will never be suitable for an article, blank it. If the original author has been inactive for a long time, and no one has been editing the draft, and there is a clear consensus that the draft cannot under any circumstances become a valid article, it could be delt4ed after an individual discussion at MFD, but the no-consensus result should be to do nothing. DES ^(talk) 19:50, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• What's the difference between "never be suitable" and "cannot even become a valid article"? It sounds like you're describing the same thing. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The distinction I am making is between "merely likely" and "clear consensus that the draft cannot under any circumstances become a valid article". In short, to justify deletion there must be much higheer assurance that there is no useful potential in a page than the term "likely" implies. This is rather like the difference between "preponderance of the evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt". I am saying that we should not delete (on these grounds) without very strong evidence, based on through searches or other valid reasoning, that there is no significant possibility that the content will be useful in building the project. (of course, copyvios, attack pages, hoaxes, and BLP violations should and will remain deletable.) DES ^(talk) 23:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• SmokeyJoe is correct. Assessing the "likelihood" is busywork. It would essentially be a mild, distributed form of WP:NOTHERE, like internal documentation of internal documentation, or fighting with your lover about how lovers are supposed to fight. We do not need more omphaloskeptic time-and-effort drains.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:35, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should drafts be moved across namespaces or submitted for AfC without the author's explicit permission (B1)

Support B1

• Yes - a user does't OWN his/her drafts any more than his/her articles. If a draftspace page is ready for mainspace, it may be moved by anyone. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes it is already allowed by policy and not prohibited by any policy. If it helps the project absolutely. I've personally moved many good drafts from userspace of long gone editors to mainspace - why waste the editor's good work? Hopefully they wrote it up to be used, and if that was not their intention they are WP:NOTHERE Legacypac (talk) 17:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What if they didn't properly understand GNG when they wrote it? A2soup (talk)

Obviously many new editors don't get GNG - and the vast majority of userspace drafts are from users that are new to the project. Many are just people trying to promote their band or website etc or just playing around. Legacypac (talk)

All the more reason to take it over and improve it. Compare what I saw versus what made it. Are we better off with a draft sitting around because the editor didn't complete something? That seems counter to the whole idea of a wiki. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes but only in a good faith effort to convert them into valid articles, not in an end run around policy to delete them. No one WP:OWNs any page here, and if a page is useful to build the encyclopedia, it may be and should be used. DES ^(talk) 19:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes. I agree that a user doesn't own their userspace. You get a fair amount of freedom to manage your userspace however you want, but if we're strictly talking about stale drafts from users who haven't been around for years, which happen to be in good enough shape to promote to main space (or, close enough that they could be improved to that point), then i don't see any reason not to move them. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• The author's explicit permission shouldn't be required. However common sense should be applied: if the author is still working on it and doesn't want it to be moved to mainspace yet then we shouldn't override their wishes. Hut 8.5 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes per the above (specifically Od Mishehu) --Majora (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes and because when we say that "All Wikipedia content − articles, categories, templates, and other types of pages − is edited collaboratively", we should mean "ALL" content. Else, it makes little sense in contrast with WP:UP#COPIES and deleting content already in mainspace. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, if another user wants to take responsibility, for it being appropriate for the article space. However, if it's from userspace the user's objections, if he or she has any, should be considered. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:59, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, so long as we're talking about stale drafts and absent users. Anyone should be able to adopt and improve a stale draft, regardless of where it resides and who created it. clpo13_(talk) 07:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes from draftspace. Only from userspace if it's been abandoned or with the author's permission. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, per WP:OWN, but there should be an expectation of engagement with the drafting user if they are still active. Guy (Help!) 09:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Only if the draft author has not been an active editor, for longer than the last year.. This is a proposal for invoking process to take something away from another editor's development, and involve other editors in that process. So it's a potential WP:BUREAUCRACY problem, and has WP:CIVILITY and WP:JERK issues. If the author is not around to object, then there's no objection. If are, and they do object, WP:OWN still applies, so an editor certain they can produce a viable article from what's been written so far is actually free to do so. They just may make another editor unhappy if they do it, if that editor is still active and has reasons for not being ready to go live with it yet. E.g., because they need to work out a WP:DYK plan (DYK has a short time limit, remember). Or they have already done enough research, just not added it all yet, to result in an B-class article ready for WP:GAN on day one, instead of the stub another editor wants to make of the material so far. Or maybe the editor inserted something and has subsequently found sharply conflicting information but not followed enough sources yet, and it would thus be objectionable to run with the current version pending that further research. Or ....  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose B1

• No - However, no one owns the topic of a draft... so if you think the topic is notable, instead of moving the draft, consider adopting the topic, and creating a draft of your own... Work on it, and when ready, move that to an appropriate namespace. Blueboar (talk) 12:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No (in some cases) In response to Blueboar, per WP:OWN, no one owns the draft itself either. I still must vote no, though, because it is not appropriate to move ALL drafts to the mainspace. See B2 for a more nuanced and useful question. ~ Rob^Talk 12:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is a degree of WP:OWN allowed in userspace... For example, If you edit a draft that is in my userspace, I am allowed to repeatedly revert "my" draft back to "my" preferred version (and 3rr does not apply to my reverts). Yes, admins can "police" userspace and remove material that is deemed actually harmful to the project... But as long as the draft does no actual harm, we do give users a reasonable degree of ownership over their drafts. Blueboar (talk) 12:39, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My response will be a direct quote from WP:OWN: "Wikipedia offers wide latitude to users to manage their user space as they see fit. Nevertheless, they are not personal homepages, and are not owned by the user [bold in the original]. They are part of Wikipedia and must serve its primary purposes ... While other users and bots will more commonly edit your user talk page, they have rights to edit other pages in your user space as well." ~ Rob^Talk 14:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think we are talking about different forms of "ownership" here.... Yes, Even user pages are subject to rules.... But the rules are (and should be) significantly different between Mainspace and userspace. A user does have a limited amount of OWNERSHIP in there userspace... OWNERSHIP that is not allowed in Mainspace. It isn't complete ownership... But it is ownership nevertheless. That limited ownership needs to be respected. Blueboar (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar is correct, we have complete control over our user namespace and we're free to limit anyone from editing or moving it (as long as we violate no basic policies). This proposal just seeks to make the point clear for users who are long gone because there are people who think otherwise when it comes to inactives. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:29, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You are very incorrect and are twisting Blueboar's point. You can't and should not try to stop me or any other editor from editing in your userspace. That goes against the collaborative effort. If you want exclusive control of a page, start a blog or website of your own. Legacypac (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cite the policy, right here, right now. Also, userpages are our own pages and there's nothing which can stop me from disallowing others to edit it. WP:NOBAN If you've ever read much of ANI threads, you'd know. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 19:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My quote of OWN above clearly shows that editing of user pages is allowed. WP:NOBAN says you shouldn't continue if they ask you to stop. In the case of drafts that have been stale for years with long inactive editors, there's virtually no chance of being asked to stop by the creator, but if anyone were asked to stop, I would expect them to honor that request as per NOBANre. ~ Rob^Talk 23:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Blueboar says "instead of moving the draft, consider adopting the topic, and creating a draft of your own" and I say that is highly inappropriate. If you see a good topic in draft you should work on that draft. Blueboar's plan will quickly lead to multiple competing drafts and articles on the same topic. If I see Draft:XYZ and create Draft:XYZ2 which I move to mainspace in a race to get credit for the title, what happens to Draft:XYZ that is now redundant? Blueboar's plan leads to basically stealing people's ideas. Legacypac (talk) 18:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Stop conflating namespaces...Draft:XYZ is in DRAFTSPACE ... And I am talking about USERspace (User:username/XYZ). There is a difference. Having a draft in your USERSPACE in no way "reserves" the article topic. It is quite possible that right now two editors are both working on separate drafts on the same topic, without either of them knowing of the other. Whoever finishes their draft first creates the article in Mainspace. The other can then add their material to that article (or not... It's up to them). Happens all the time. No big deal. Blueboar (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Articles are not ideas. If an editor is inactive, there's no reason not to work on their draft, but it shouldn't be in their namespace for they might not want the edits we made, it's completely the user's choice. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 19:40, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is, if I found someone else's draft and they left years ago, is it really ok for me to just create my own page, publish it and then take their page to either be deleted/blanked/whatever? Wouldn't it be better and more encouraging if the original editor's history is there and acknowledged? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you got the idea from someone else's draft, took their references, and started again, they might well feel insulted, particularly if you do a worse job than they already did, but that's about it. If they have not done a good job, and you do a good job, good for you, thank you. If you acknowledge the first write, even if unnecessarily, that is a very nice thing to do that cost you nothing. In any case, if you end up writing a mainspace article, you should feel allowed (but not obligated) to redirect the old version to it. This will inform the returning author of the situation, and he can react however he chooses. He may well choose to improve the mainspace version. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is OK to write your own draft and upload it into Mainspace. It's not as if the fact that I also have created a draft prevents you from doing this, or in some way "reserves" the topic.

However, the fact that "your" draft is uploaded to Mainspace does not mean that "my" draft must be deleted. It can sit in my userspace without having any impact on the project. Blueboar (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree strongly with this. Independent versions of the same thing don't need to be deleted, and they are not WP:UP#COPIES. If you were to make a draft that is an inferior version of a pre-existing mainspace article, I think you shouldn't, but for independent drafting towards the same missing article, there is no good reason to suppress access to someone's contribution history. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Not if the draft-author is an active editor; see my comments in the "yes" section (about inactive authors of drafts) for details.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments B1

• From DraftSpace? Yes, when it is ready
• From UserSpace? Sometimes. If the author is long absent and his intention can be divined, then helping the author is the right thing to do. If a draft is ready for mainspace, then yes. If the intention is to have the page deleted for not meeting the GNG, then no. If it doesn't meet WP:STUB or WP:N, then no. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should drafts be moved across namespaces or submitted for AfC without the author's explicit permission if it's fit to be an article (B2)

Support B2

• Support for all the obvious reasons. Why throw away the hard work of another editor just because their life moved on? As per WP:OWN, they do not have ownership of their userspace draft, and so any editor can improve it and move it to the mainspace. ~ Rob^Talk 12:15, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite right.... We do allow a degree of OWN in userspace... 3rr does not apply for example. You don't OWN the topic (someone else can create their own draft on the same topic), but you do have a degree of ownership over the text of your draft.

Note that this limited degree of OWNership only applies to drafts in USER space... It does not apply to drafts located in Draftspace (Because Draftspace is designed to be communally edited, while userspace is designed to be individually edited, should the user so desire). Blueboar (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my response above, which quotes text from WP:OWN. ~ Rob^Talk 14:49, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, provided the material meets mainspace standards including WP:N and the WP:Core content policies. The result need not be a stand-alone article - material may also be used (with due attribution) to improve an existing article. JohnCD (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Conditional support The problem is that I'm _still_ seeing folks moving things to mainspace and then them quickly getting sent to AfD. Still a potential WP:GAMING issue and those drafts should then be moved back to userspace rather than deleted. Otherwise, even if done in good faith, the net effect is the deletion of someone's userspace work when it was fine in userspace. Hobit (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • An example of such a move headed toward deletion can be found at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Wang_Dongma Hobit (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)This was unsigned for a while, sorry. Hobit (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I call bull on the unsigned allegation. That is a well referenced draft that happened to duplicate a 6 year old mainspace article under an alternate spelling of a name. I did not move it to mainspace to have it deleted. Legacypac (talk) 18:14, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Hobit and Legacypac: You are both wrong. The creator moved the original first and then recreated it again in their userspace and then began changing it around. I'd guess both are probably nonsense unless the sources are describing twins or something. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:41, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Legacypac, I didn't claim the move was done in bad faith. I'm saying that the effect is that the user's draft article could get deleted because of nothing they did wrong. And I'd prefer in that case the article be re-userfied (though that too could be easily subject to gaming by the person writing the draft having a friend move it?) rather than deleted as deleting it for being "almost good enough" seems WP:BITEY. And sorry I didn't sign the previous note. Hobit (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, something weird is going on. Legacypac and I both think he moved it from draft space, but I can't find any evidence he did. No idea what's going on (I'd just assume I screwed up somehow, but if he thinks he moved it also, he probably did and I'm just missing something). Off topic, but if anyone has a clue what's going on, that would be great. Hobit (talk) 02:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is confusing for there are two similar pages that differ by a letter in the name. I found one in userspace that looked pretty good, lots of refs etc. I searched the artist's name, found nothing, so moved it to mainspace. Then someone AfD'd a mainspace article with a slightly different name (off by the first letter) and linked them. I was accused of moving the userspace version to delete it, which is absurd because I was not even aware of the alternative titled mainspace one. So I moved one version to main and the origional author moved another in to mainspace. Legacypac (talk) 08:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Absolutely, but only provided that this is done in a good faith attempt to create a valid article. Any Afd should strongly consider moving the page back to draft or userspace if it concludes that page is not fit for mainspace. DES ^(talk) 19:56, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• The author's explicit permission shouldn't be required for this, but it should only be done if the moving/submitting editor genuinely feels that the content is suitable for mainspace, and it shouldn't be done if the author actively doesn't want it moved to mainspace yet. Hut 8.5 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, if clearly fit. If not clear, it may be adopted by an interested editor, but gnomes should not be instructed to move things at an unclear threshold. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes if another user wants to take responsibility for it being appropriate for the article space (i.e. only in a good faith attempt to create an article, as others have said above). If it's being moved from userspace and the user has objections, however, those objections shouldn't be ignored. My presumption is that in most cases this will regard drafts by users who are not active. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes obviously the author submitted the work under an open license and they do not own it. Userspace doesn't grant any ownership rights either. We allow certain activities in userspace, but users don't own it.--v/r - TP 04:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, so long as we're talking about stale drafts and absent users. Anyone should be able to adopt and improve a stale draft, regardless of where it resides and who created it. If it's suitable to be an article, then there's no question that it's appropriate to move to mainspace or submit to AFC. clpo13_(talk) 07:09, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, of course. Stifle (talk) 08:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Only if the draft author has not been an active editor, for longer than the last year. See above for details. "Fit" is subjective.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose B2

• Not if the draft-author is an active editor; see my comments in the "support" section (about inactive authors of drafts) in the previous question for details.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:39, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments B2

• This is frequently a positive action. A concern, however, is that the draft will then be eligible for WP:G13 deletion if it is declined. Thus, this action may sometimes unintentionally be equivalent to deleting a good-fatih, non-problematic userspace draft. Per my support comment in A3, this action is always negative. So perhaps we can arrange for the draft to be removed from the AfC process if it is declined? A2soup (talk) 17:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a conspiracy theory and not rooted in logic. There are many editors that patrol declined AfCs and improve them for main or at least edit them a little to prevent deletion until someone works on them. The path from stale userspace to mainspace is very tough because very few editors are looking at stale drafts in userspace. The path from AfC to mainspace is much easier because these pages are looked at and worked a lot more. If the draft has potential, any editor can look at the AfC comments, make the corrections, and send it on to mainspace or AfC again. Legacypac (talk) 18:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making accusations of a conspiracy. I'm saying that this is something that can happen unintentionally, which makes it a problem. Do you agree that it is a serious possibility, even if no one is trying to get the draft deleted? A2soup (talk) 20:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• "fit to be an article" would need to be explicitly defined. This whole concept leads to issues. What if the page is moved, we assume good faith of course that the user thought it was fit, then it is speedied or nominated for AfD and deleted under mainspace standards? The only way to solve this would be stating the pages must be submitted to AfC and as a special case are exempt from WP:CSD#G13. @A2soup: this is sort of along the same lines as you what you were talking about.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 20:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Must not fall into CSD#A criteria seems sound to me. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 20:09, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should it be permissible to move to mainspace userspace drafts which do not meet mainspace standards to seek deletion (B3)

Support B3

Oppose B3

• Oppose. This is WP:FORUMSHOPping. Standards for drafts and user space are intentionally different from those for mainspace, and WP:MFD is the proper forum to discuss them. JohnCD (talk) 15:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose for all the obvious reasons. I slightly rephrased the question to try to be a bit more neutral. Hope you don't mind JohnCD. ~ Rob^Talk 15:37, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, but I have re-re-phrased - I intend this to include the mainspacing of obvious A7 or BLP-prod candidates. JohnCD (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I have re-re-re-phrased to take out the archaic phrase "in order to" because it grinds my gears. ~ Rob^Talk 23:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - just like a recreation of a deleted article isn't covered by CSD G4, a userspace draft may not be mainspaced in order to delete it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Opppose WP:POINT violation - nothing should be purposefully placed in article space by an editor acting in bad faith, in this situation they are obviously not trying to advanced the encyclopedia for the readers. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose of course. Per above and my comments elsewhere. Hobit (talk) 17:24, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Draft and userspace are NOINDEX'ed for a reason. Spurious moves out of them and into mainspace will result in search engines grabbing sub-par, and quite possibly false or harmful, content. Delete content in its location, under the procedures established for that location, or not at all. Jclemens (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Strongest possible Oppose - Moving drafts that are not ready for mainspace into mainspace in order to delete them is not only absurd and bizarre, but is offensive and serves no useful purpose. If this is done systematically (and I have seen charges that it sometimes is done systematically), the editor should be taken to WP:ANI and given any of a move-ban (mildest sanction) to a site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• very strong oppose Not only should this not be permissible, but doing so should be grounds for a block for tendentious editing and disrupting the project. Doing so repeatedly should be grounds for a ban. DES ^(talk) 19:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Oppose - Absolutely not. Standards regulating what can exist in each namespace are different by design. Moving a page and then personally nominating it for deletion is a bad faith action that attempts to thwart the already established community process of MfD.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 20:06, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Absolutely not. We have a process to delete pages in userspace. Some things can be speedy deleted under WP:U1, WP:U2, WP:U3, or WP:U5. If it doesn't fit one of those, bring it to WP:MFD. If you feel something should be deleted, but none of those processes apply, then work on building consensus to change those processes. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:30, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose this is an abuse of process and an attempt to game the system. If you want to delete a draft then use the processes associated with drafts (MfD and the userspace speedy deletion criteria). Nobody should be moving content to article space unless they genuinely feel it is suitable for article space. Hut 8.5 21:13, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• of course not. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No of course not — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:07, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No, that's what WP:MFD is for. clpo13_(talk) 07:11, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Rather obviously not, but the concerns that MFD is too lenient on this need an airing. Stifle (talk) 08:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Obviously not. That would be bad-faith WP:GAMING.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:40, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments B3

Where a userspace draft is moved to mainspace by a user other than its author, but is then found to be unsuitable for mainspace for reasons which would not apply in userspace, should it be returned to userspace rather than deleted? (B4)

Support B4

• Support, to ensure that the backdoor route to deletion is firmly closed. JohnCD (talk) 22:07, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support conditionally. If it's clear that the nominator and/or the mover did so in bad faith, just move it back as per consensus above. If a move-war starts or it is not clear that the move was in bad faith, use AfD, but a delete outcome should be treated as userfy unless the reason for deletion is something serious like a BLP violation or copyright violation. In other words, please don't treat the consensus that will obviously emerge on this issue as your license to move-war. ~ Rob^Talk 23:08, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - When unsuitable content is moved in this manner it creates issues: deleting the content at AfD is the improper forum; any non-general and non-userspace speedy deletion is improper process. This proposal will ensure moves from the userspace to mainspace are only done in good faith, as the page content will be restored to the userspace anyway if the content is found to be unsuitable. However, this will be to difficult to track and enforce; it would probably require implementing another layer of things for administrators to check when closing AfDs and judging speedy requests.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 23:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes normally. If a copyvio or the like is discovered, that would be a reason to delete even in uderspace. Even if the mover acted in good faith, we should generally move it back if an AfD disapproves of the (recently) moved page. There might be occasional exceptions. DES ^(talk) 23:25, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, and the page mover should be informed of the result and counselled on knowing what is suitable in mainspace. If everyone is acting in good faith, this will be a grey borderline issue, and one or two occurrences are not to be concerned about. Already we have seen this happen, and post-move-back to userspace, the draft was further improved and made suitable for mainspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Definitely, I appreciate that JohnCD made this proposal, it certainly sets the problem aside. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 05:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - This just makes sense. If a userspace draft is deleted, it should be deleted as a userspace draft. If this passes, it would allay my concerns with some current practices. A2soup (talk) 05:33, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Support This would essentially be gaming the system to move articles out of userspace so they could be deleted under other CSD categories. Although I support cleaning userspace, this seems like a reasonable concern about gaming.--v/r - TP 05:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes in the absence of any particularly concerning issues (such as BLP violations, copyright violations, etc.). clpo13_(talk) 07:10, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes pretty obvious. Hobit (talk) 08:38, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, otherwise it's a nasty WP:GAMING loophole. This is kind of pointless to ask anyway, since it's already standard operating procedure to userspace, upon request, anything at AFD that may be salvageable with more work, if it doesn't violate all-namespace policies/guidelines like WP:NPA and WP:NFT.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  10:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose B4

• Not necessarily. Consider the case of a promotional page created in userspace by a user with no other contributions and abandoned for a long time - years, perhaps. If it looks like an article, then move it to main space. If it's deleted then leave it deleted. Crap needs to be nuked, and we should not concern ourselves with bringing the right kind of shrubbery. It's reasonable for an active user to have some say in the process, but where a user is inactive there is absolutely no point moving it back to user space in the pious hope that one day it will somehow magically not be crap, or the user will, like Lig Lury Jr., one day return from lunch. Guy (Help!) 09:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments B4

• By what method? Moving directly? Admin move? An AFD discussion that results in userfication? I'm prefer an AFD just to make sure this isn't a one-on-one dispute between the editor who moved it and the one who disagrees. We have the same issues with AFC pages being moved back and forth and the best resolution is either a WP:RM at that point or at WT:AFC but it's basically the same idea: discuss the matter among more people. I support the point of moving it back but I won't support page move arguing over it as that's bad enough elsewhere. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:59, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What should be done after a draft expires (C1)

This proposal depends on the result of this RfC.
Possible actions: Delete, Keep, Blank, Userfy

Comments C1

• This is one of those areas where I think it makes sense to divide the discussion into two parts: Draftspace and Userspace. I think it makes sense to have an "expiration" date for drafts in Draftspace (since that is a space for collaborative work, there comes a point when we have to say "either this can not be improved, or there is no interest in improving it")... But I don't think we should have any "expiration" date for drafts in USERSPACE. A user should be allowed to take as long as he/she wants to work on his or her draft, and get it to a state where he/she is happy with it. Blueboar (talk) 18:21, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think ther should be a concept of an "expiration date" for a draft, and doubly not in userspace. If a draft is being worked on in good faith, it can stay a draft for 10 years. If a draft is 'stale' (a concept I wish to banish) but there is some reasonable chance (say at least 2%) that it will eventually become an article, then there is no good reason to delete it unless there is something actively harmful in it. Only if it is "stale" And it is evaluated by a group of editors in an MfD discussion to have effectively zero chance of ever becoming a valid article, and has no other useful purpose for the project, should it be perhaps deleted. Obviously copyvios, BLP violations, and irredeemably promotional pages should go much sooner. DES ^(talk) 20:19, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't think of pages "expiring". We have many Wikipedia:Dusty articles in mainspace. Even G13 isn't an expiration date so much as a review and check date. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Old drafts should be assess for potential. Drafts without potential should be deleted under some to-be-written D* CSD criteria. Drafts with potential should be retained. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:43, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Triage them. Well formatted ones go to mainspace to sink or swim on their merits, crap ones get nuked, edge cases can be userfied if the drafting user is active and wants to keep it. We have a pretty low bar to restoration of deleted drafts and a metric fuckton of crud to wade through, let's not tie ourselves down with process just for the sake of it. Guy (Help!) 09:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I think it important that people responding to this RFC distinguish between drafts located in Userspace vs drafts located in Draftspace. The two namespaces serve different functions (and to my mind should have different standards.) Blueboar (talk) 11:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That applies to new drafts, but draft space is relatively new. I would support hooveirng up userspace drafts into draft space and having one process. Guy (Help!) 09:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I've considered userspace drafts and Drafts: as drafts. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 11:46, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And that commingling is part of the problem. We have two namespaces in which to place drafts for a reason... Drafts in Draftspace have been submitted for community editing... And thus they should be held to a different (I think stricter) standard than drafts in Userspace (which are not necessarily submitted for community editing). Blueboar (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, there are no different standards, if that's happening, it's a problem with us. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 13:55, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Userspace drafts should not be treated the same as DraftSpace drafts. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Want to chime is that there is a distinction. For example, one could argue that an incompetent draft in draftspace should be deleted for WP:TNT reasons, so that someone in the future could make a more competent one. Also, userspace is often considered a sort of "sandbox" or "scratch pad" - I have never seen draftspace considered that way. A2soup (talk) 18:05, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• If you ready Wikipedia:Draft it is pretty clear that a draft is a draft regardless of where found. Legacypac (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Legacypac: Please bullet your comments, I've said it enough already. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 19:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• @A2soup: You've been putting your text below the notice line. Please be more careful. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 19:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, not used to such well-structured RfCs. A2soup (talk) 20:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What can I say? I've always been a stickler for perfection and order (even when there's no need of it), maybe one of the reasons I don't have a girlfriend. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 20:12, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see a huge difference between drafts in userspace and drafts in Draft space. Note that I didn't' say no difference, however. There's a certain tacit understanding that people have more freedom and latitude in their own userspace than they do in draft space, but it's more of a gentleman's agreement than a law. But, as I said above, if we're strictly talking about stale drafts, i.e. drafts which haven't been touched in years, in the user space of people who haven't made any contributions for years, then the distinction ceases to have any value. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:38, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: I would say that since the draftspace is a "common area" of sorts, there is some small value to cleaning it out just for the sake of cleanliness. Is there any such value in cleaning out userspace? And, if not, why should it be cleaned? That's the difference to me at least, do you not see a difference on that point? A2soup (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see very little (perhaps zero) value in cleaning out user space just for the purpose of cleaning up. I was thinking more about promoting stale drafts to mainspace when I wrote the above remarks. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "clean up" is referring to. People want to scroll through PrefixIndex without seeing page? I feel like it's just used to criticize any attempt to look through anyone's userspace drafts. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:07, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: So then do you see a distinction between userspace and draftspace in terms of when drafts should be deleted? A2soup (talk) 02:08, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• The biggest difference, RoySmith, in my opinion, is that not everything in UserSpace that looks like a draft is a draft. UserSpace is also for notes, records, things only obliquely related to possible new content. In UserSpace you can keep your notes, and it can be extremely offending to find them tampered with. In DraftSpace, this is not the case. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:47, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Some editors including User:Blueboar say that it is important to distinguish between drafts in draft space and drafts in user space. I partly agree and partly disagree, having to do with the different uses of user space. I will try to explain. As an RFC reviewer, I review AFC drafts in user space and AFC drafts in draft space. Not only is there no distinction between them, but AFC reviewers are encouraged to move AFC drafts from user space into draft space. The difference is between AFC drafts (anywhere, but with a preferred location of draft space), non-AFC pages in user space, and non-AFC drafts in draft space. I also don't see a distinction between AFC drafts in draft space, that is, drafts that have been submitted for review at least once, and non-AFC drafts in draft space, drafts that are being developed presumably for review and eventually intended for mainspace, but that have not yet been submitted for review at least once. The real distinction is between non-AFC pages in user space, and drafts in either user space or draft space. If that is what Blueboar means, then I agree. Otherwise I request a clarification. Non-AFC pages in user space can have various uses. They may be essays, for instance, or they may contain analyses of data, or they may be editing tests. Editing tests are supposed to be done in sandboxes, but a sandbox is just a user subpage. (Very often sandboxes contain draft articles. These are treated no differently than other draft articles in user pages. Normally the sandbox draft is moved by the reviewer into draft space. A sandbox that is an editing test rather than a draft is not moved.) The real distinction is between drafts, whether or not in draft space, and non-AFC user subpages. Drafts are subject to G13 expiration after they have been submitted for review at least once. I see no reason why other user pages should have expiration dates. For instance, essays, whether in user space or in Wikipedia space, do not expire. I agree that there is a difference between drafts in any space, and non-AFC pages, such as essays, in user space. Is that what Blueboar is saying, or something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree. I would prefer to delineate between (1) Drafts in DraftSpace; (2) Drafts in userspace; (3) Non-drafts in Userspace.

(1) has the G13 process, and I think it should apply to every draft in draftspace, AfC tagged or not. However, there should be a way to mark a draft as a quality draft with potential to prevent its auto-deletion. Probably for rare obscure topics.

(2) what to do with these is debatable. Some say leave them where they are. I support moving them to DraftSpace if the user is long inactive.

(3) These pages are either valid notes by established Wikipedians, or NOTWEBHOST violations by non-contributors, and almost never anything else. The first set should never be touched, please let's respect each other, barring actual problems, and the second can be deleted under U5. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Just dropping a note that it'd be nice if someone updated the table every 12 hours. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 05:58, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Drafting in mainspace

• Serious drafting on notable topics with reliable sources should be done directly in mainspace. Referring newcomers to write for the first time on new topics in draftspace or userspace makes more work that it is worth. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]