Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator): Difference between revisions

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→‎Requested move 3 July 2023: That's part of the problem.
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*:::That's not enough. Note that my question wasn't about O'Reilly. It was about the sport. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
*:::That's not enough. Note that my question wasn't about O'Reilly. It was about the sport. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 04:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
*::::I don't think that's relevant. -- [[User:Rockstone35|<span style="color:#DF0101"><b>Rockstone</b></span>]][[User talk:Rockstone35|<span style="color:0000ff;font-size:15px"><sup><small><b>Send me a message!</b></small></sup></span>]] 05:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
*::::I don't think that's relevant. -- [[User:Rockstone35|<span style="color:#DF0101"><b>Rockstone</b></span>]][[User talk:Rockstone35|<span style="color:0000ff;font-size:15px"><sup><small><b>Send me a message!</b></small></sup></span>]] 05:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
*:::::Thinking that is part of the problem here. [[User:HiLo48|HiLo48]] ([[User talk:HiLo48|talk]]) 05:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 05:50, 7 July 2023

Template:Vital article

Howard Stern

Removed this sentence from bio: "During his time at BU, he also was a classmate of future radio talk show host Howard Stern whom O'Reilly noticed because Stern was the only student on campus taller than he was." Stern was an undergrad when O'Reilly was in grad school. To hear O'Reilly talk on air, he and Stern were friends and classmates. Stern is adamant that they never crossed paths, much less were classmates or friends. scooteristi (talk) 14:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020

change "near the 9//1 memorial site" to "near the 9/11 memorial site" Vadalover (talk) 03:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 03:54, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2020

The article states that Bill O'Reilly is a journalist, however, this is not true. He's a political pundit. I would like to change "journalist" to "political pundit" to reflect the true nature of his career. Cbellur (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Sundayclose (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2020

In the Books by O'Reilly section, please link the 1st instance of Martin Dugard to Martin Dugard (author). — 2606:A000:1126:28D:ACA9:E77B:5BDD:7ACA (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Terasail[Talk] 21:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Category Fired from Fox News

I reverted this per BRD. Malerooster (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is your justification for removing it? The last paragraph of the Fox News section in this article plainly says "On April 19, 2017, Fox News announced that O'Reilly would not return to their primetime lineup" and "After O'Reilly was fired..." And the lead says "...various sexual misconduct lawsuits, which led to the network terminating O'Reilly's employment."-- MelanieN (talk) 16:22, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I thought this was just added? If RS say he was "fired" then its ok. --Malerooster (talk) 17:54, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sources say that they "agreed" that he would leave? Is that being "fired"?--Malerooster (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the lead has six sources. (Way too many and I think I will delete a few.) The headlines of the first two are "Bill O’Reilly Is Forced Out at Fox News" (NYT) and "Fox News drops Bill O’Reilly in wake of harassment allegations" (Fox News). "Forced out" and "drops" sound pretty definitive. The public statement Fox issued (after they told him he was out) is that he "agreed" that he will not be returning to the Fox News Channel. The articles make it clear that the decision had been made and that he was "agreeing" as a face saving gesture. Bottom line, "People fired from Fox News" is an appropriate category for him IMO. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, fair enough.--Malerooster (talk) 19:12, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. And thanks for trimming the duplicative "covered above" stuff. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This was removed because it was a shit category that classified a person by the means they left or were removed from a job at a specific company. It is now at CfD where the discussion thus far is unanimous. So if you don't delete it now, someone will just be doing it again in around 6 days. Zaathras (talk)

Requested move 3 July 2023

Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) → Bill O'Reilly – When I saw that this article was distinguished with "(political commentator)," I was surprised -- "who else has a page called 'Bill O'Reilly'?," I thought to myself. I looked up Bill O'Reilly, which redirected to the disambiguation page William O'Reilly, which features only one other article titled Bill O'Reilly, about an Australian cricketer. Between the fact that the article about the political commentator has thousands of page views in the last month alone while the cricketer's page just barely cracks one thousand in that span of time, Google searching "Bill O'Reilly" nearly exclusively showed results about the political commentator. To me, this is a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, without question. JeffSpaceman (talk) 04:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose again per all previous attempts see "From the Archives, 1992: O’Reilly a giant from cricket’s golden age dies". This commentator fails long term historical claim to encyclopaedic default status. He is a political commentator not a cricketer and there's no shame in having his article titled so it is not ambiguous. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That's only one source, though. As noted above, page views and Google searching seem to tell a very different story about the significance of this cricketer compared to the political commentator, the latter appearing to be a far more culturally significant figure than the (relatively) obscure cricketer (I should also point this out, with regards to Google searching -- it took well over a hundred results, at least on my end, until I found something related to the cricketer, while the political commentator was immediately very visible upon hitting the search button). If you can find more than one source asserting that this cricketer with only a few dozen sources on his page holds more significance than a widely controversial political commentator whose page features hundreds of sources, then maybe I'd be able to see your point. As it stands, though, I don't believe that this one source you've provided automatically constitutes more (or equal) notability with O'Reilly the political commentator. JeffSpaceman (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Using Google searches as a reasoning is fairly useless considering how personalised the results are. The cricketer was the second result for me, there were multiple results for the cricketer on the first page, and the first news result was the cricketer even though he died quite some time ago. Google just correctly inferred that you aren't very interested in cricket. StuartH (talk) 12:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The page view differential is so massive here it cannot be ignored: nearly a 40x advantage for the political commentator. –CWenger (^ • @) 14:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The request is pure recentism, combined with standard American lack of knowledge of cricket and lack of respect for history. This has been done to death on several occasions in the past. I will continue to mock any comment here that shows an ignorance of cricket, its place in world sport, and its history. [HINT: Cricket is bigger than American football, baseball, and ice hockey combined.] HiLo48 (talk) 00:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    "I will continue to mock any comment here that shows an ignorance of cricket, its place in world sport, and its history." It's OK if you disagree with my comments, but please be civil when you explain why you feel that way. Snide comments about me and people who agree with me having a "standard American lack of respect for history" et al are unwarranted and unhelpful. JeffSpaceman (talk) 01:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That too is a standard response from parochial Americans. It's NOT an insult. It's an invitation to you to learn more about the world outside your borders, and what has been going on there for at least 400 years in a sport with probably over a billion fans. HiLo48 (talk) 01:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Over a billion fans that don't frequent Wikipedia, it would seem, from the page views... –CWenger (^ • @) 02:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Given what has already been said here, that's a really silly comment. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    HiLo48, your conduct, which at times is flat out condescending ("That too is a standard response from parochial Americans"), is not OK. Most of your behavior here seems to be focused on belittling American users for their lack of knowledge about someone whose importance, while substantial in the Australian sports world, does not appear to hold as much relevance in contemporary society as a political commentator whose page views and Google results tell a very different story to this being recentism, as you allege. Oppose this proposed move all you want, but do it in a constructive fashion. Don't talk about how American users should "learn more about the world outside of [their] borders," comment on why the move itself wouldn't be a good idea. JeffSpaceman (talk) 03:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You really should stop now. Or learn a lot more about the cricketer. This isn't about the Australian sports world. It's about the international sports world, again something unfamiliar to a lot of Americans, who tend to follow sports played largely within their own borders. Have you even read beyond the first sentence of the cricketer's article? HiLo48 (talk) 06:41, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This issue has been beaten to death numerous times since 2005. What has changed since the last RM in 2016 is that the political commentator departed Fox News and now appears on podcasts and other media that seems to be less widely distributed. Therefore I am even more inclined to support the status quo. And to repeat what I stated in the 2009 RM: If there is consensus that an inductee to both Australian Cricket Hall of Fame and the ICC Cricket Hall of Fame has the same amount of notability as an inductee to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, and [such a baseball Hall of Famer also] has the same amount of notability as the current political commentator, then there cannot be any primary topic. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's a clearly ambiguous name and little has changed since all of the previous failed attempts to move except the commentator having a slightly lower profile now. It's the cricketer who first comes to mind for many even though he died 20 years ago, and we wouldn't be having this discussion if it was a baseball player or another US sportsperson. Wikipedia is stronger when it doesn't have a strong recency bias. StuartH (talk) 06:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) is by far the more renowned throughout much of the world. 1.136.105.164 (talk) 13:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC).[reply]
  • Oppose The argument to move is "my unawareness only allowed me the knowledge of one Bill O'Reilly" and "um, lots of pageviews". Earth-shattering as it may be to some, an American conservative known for sexually harassing women and yelling about things he doesn't like is not terribly important to the entire English-speaking world. Should Nirvana (band) usurp Nirvana, per pageviews? Zaathras (talk) 13:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per all above. American political commentators are big in America, but the rest of the world couldn't care less. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The American newsreader is certainly not more notable than the Cricketer. Simonm223 (talk) 14:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I am an American and readily admit that I personally knew more about the political commentator than the cricketer, until I read the excellent biography of the cricketer just now, clicked on a bunch of links and learned more about cricket as a result. The status quo is just fine. I would like to say that nationalist sniping among editors is poor behavior, and encourage all involved to avoid pot shots against other nationalities. Cullen328 (talk) 18:13, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as I've never heard about a cricket player named Bill O'Reilly. But, I've certainly heard about & seen, Bill 'Do it live' O'Reilly. GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose largely because this has been discussed so many times and O'Reilly is far more irrelevant now than he was when the previous discussions took place. There's no clear primary topic.LM2000 (talk) 21:59, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Um, the way you've formulated your first sentence suggests that your second sentence is untrue; there is a clear primary topic and it's the asshat from Fox. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 01:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems that the only reason to oppose this is either procedural or WP:RECENT. After reviewing the pageviews it seems those two arguments are pretty weak in comparison to the huge pageview discrepancy. The political commentator has been around for decades so I'm not sure how WP:RECENT is relevant. The political commentator receives 30 to 50 times more pageviews per month. It's extremely difficult to review the data and argue that the political commentator isn't the primary topic. One reason this might keep coming up is that it's been wrongly decided in the past. In light of there not being a compelling argument to oppose and the overwhelming pageview difference I support the move. Nemov (talk) 00:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There are two important men with this name. Continue to disambiguate.
P.S. please stop sniping at the Americans. It's not just America - most of the world doesn't play cricket (China, Russia, EU, Brazil, Indonesia, Canada, etc.) Also, a majority of Americans would love to trade their live Bill O'Reilly for Australia's dead one.
--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 00:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of Canadians play Cricket, especially in Ontario. I used to go and watch folks on the local pitch back when I lived in Toronto. Never learned how to play but it looks like a fun game. Simonm223 (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Take it from an Englishman, it really isn't. ;) -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The most important reason to support disambiguation: collegiality
We're having a divisive discussion that's just not worth it in terms of the price we're paying as a community.
-- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 02:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this quite the opposite though? This keeps coming up because so many editors are perplexed at how this hasn't been changed. The process doesn't seem to be encouraging collegiality. Nemov (talk) 02:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Ridiculous suggestion. Bill O'Reilly was one of the greatest cricketers of all time, who would be clear PTOPIC if Wikipedia only extended to countries in which that game is played. I've barely heard of the political commentator. No PTOPIC, continue to disambiguate. Narky Blert (talk) 03:56, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note. I've moved the cricketeer and the American commentator to the first two entries at the disamb. page. They were both several down, making it a bit harder for readers to find, so presenting them as the first names may address some of the concern. Some editors here, myself included, have learned a little more about cricket because of this nomination, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:17, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:PT1 "more likely than all the other topics combined" ie. page view counts are dramatically in favor of the American. The argument for WP:PT2 "enduring significance" for the cricket player is not false, but, the politician also has enduring significance, they are are a wash. That leaves WP:PT1 as the main difference, and the American easily takes it. -- GreenC 14:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. According to WikiNav, 93% of visitors to the disambiguation page are looking for the political pundit. I believe that GreenC's reading of WP:PT1 is correct. It seems that most editors are !voting based on their personal knowledge rather than providing meaningful evidence or citing P&G (and I assume that such !votes, both for and against, will be given little to no weight when closing). Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:31, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Agree with GreenC that the political commentator is clearly primary with respect to usage according to WP:PT1, and it's not at all clear that in the grand scheme of history the cricketer is primary according to historical signficance. (Anecdotally, I'm from a cricketing nation but am not old enough to remember the cricketer's playing career; I had never heard of the cricketer but am well aware of the political commentator) Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I entered this thread expecting to support the proposal, but after reviewing the cricketer's article, it's clear that he was a pivotal figure in the history of the sport. While the commentator undoubtedly has a dramatic lead in pageviews, I believe the cricketer has a sufficient level of significance to make this a WP:NOPRIMARY situation. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    We may be loosing sight of why PRIMARYTOPIC exists. If 93% of readers typing "Bill O'Reilly" want the American, we can help them by sending them directly to the American. Per WP:DAB "Ensuring that a reader who searches for a topic using a particular term can get to the information on that topic quickly and easily". Furthermore, being an important person on Cricket is relevant, but this simply favors WP:PT2 over WP:PT1. Fair enough that's an opinion, but the American is also a PT2. So we have NOPRIMARY situation on PT2. But a clear PRIMARY on PT1. Keeping score, it's 2 to 1 in favor of the American, in terms of how many WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines they have. The guidelines weight in favor of the American. -- GreenC 20:48, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep disambiguated per NOPRIMARY. Yeah TV Bill handily captures PT1, but PT2 seems at best unclear, and the disambiguation hurts nothing. Type Bill O' into the search bar and TV Bill pops right to the top. Not sure how we're hindering anyone's navigation with the status quo. Folly Mox (talk) 22:04, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has an example of apple being the primary topic due to long-term significance (PT2) even though Apple Inc. has the higher usage (PT1). Continuing with GreenC's logic, if a primary topic can be assigned when an article wins per PT2 but loses per PT1, surely a primary topic can be assigned when an article wins handily per PT1 and draws per PT2, no? –CWenger (^ • @) 22:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know. That supposition seems to assume two things though: that sports Bill and TV Bill "draw" PT2 rather than sports Bill "winning" it; and that in case of different subjects claiming PT1 and PT2, both PT are on equal footing. I imagine the outcome of this discussion will clarify one of those assumptions, and this can be added as an example to the guidance. Folly Mox (talk) 02:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - it seems clear to me that the primary topic is the political commentator. Same reason Americans redirects to the article about United States citizens. --RockstoneSend me a message! 00:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems clear to me that the primary topic is the sport. HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You didn't learn anything from the complaints at ANI, did you? --RockstoneSend me a message! 00:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What? HiLo48 (talk) 00:47, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    How on earth is Americans relevant? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:20, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You have a set of people who insist that there is no primary topic for Americans, because all people from the Americas are American. They are wrong. Same with the people (in my opinion) who insist that there is no primary topic for Bill O'Reilly here. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 09:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, they are wrong. That's blatantly obvious. How is this relevant to the subject at hand? Most people in the world have probably never heard of either of these people. Of those that have, most Americans would probably identify the political commentator and most people from the Commonwealth (where cricket is huge) would probably identify the cricketer. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:06, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Concur. This is obvious WP:OSE territory.Simonm223 (talk) 14:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, the American commentator and the world-class Hall of Fame cricketeer seem to be equally important to their chosen career paths. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:27, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Clearly the primary topic. Never heard of the cricketer. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Although I agree this is the primary topic, I don't think "never heard of X" is a good argument. Also, I don't think this is worth keeping open. It's pretty obvious there won't be consensus to move this. --RockstoneSend me a message! 21:19, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I completely agree that "never heard of X" is not a good argument. Even without it being said, that was obviously an factor behind quite a lot of comments in this thread. I say that as a cricket fan from the city that gave Rupert Murdoch to the world, and who has followed his influence on politics in multiple countries, including using people such as Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) as major contributors. Perhaps editors need to be reminded of those words you just wrote in the section at the top of this page showing the history of previous move requests. HiLo48 (talk) 23:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I know this is not going to be successful because this is one of those things that Wikipedia is going to be stubborn about, but whatever. This Bill O'Reilly is WP:PRIMARY. The nominator is correct, if you search up Bill O'Reilly, there isn't going to be a single index of the cricketer or any other other ones. The vast majority of reliable sources concerning Bill O'Reilly are going to be about this one. And the fact that this has been nominated for a move a million times should be telling that there is a primary topic. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 02:37, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    A question drawing from the mini-thread just above - How much do you know about the sport of cricket? HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I know he was a good cricket player and is notable as such. Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 04:46, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not enough. Note that my question wasn't about O'Reilly. It was about the sport. HiLo48 (talk) 04:48, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think that's relevant. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 05:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thinking that is part of the problem here. HiLo48 (talk) 05:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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