Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church: Difference between revisions

Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Much like the Southern Episcopal Church that this body seems to have split from, secondary sourcing is near impossible to find. Pbritti (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity and Tennessee. Pbritti (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Question: does it have an entry in Encyclopedia of American Religions? StAnselm (talk) 15:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @StAnselm: Not saying it isn't in there, but I just spent about 15 minutes searching through a digital copy and could not find it. Makes sense, as the most recent publicly available edition was published about the same time the AOSEC is thought to have gotten off the ground. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:11, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, delete then. StAnselm (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:40, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into Southern Episcopal Church (ie, note as a daughter/splinter denomination), per talkpage: Talk:Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church#What is the connection with the Southern Episcopal Church? –Zfish118^⋉talk 22:26, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Zfish118: Discussion seems inaccurate. Sourcing in article shows that the both the SEC and AOSEC are the same body. There are two websites for the body and both show a bishop named Manning as the presiding bishop. Without additional sourcing, I think the comments in that discussion are erroneous original research due to the church using interchangeable titles. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:06, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All the more reason to merge them if no formal split occurred. –Zfish118^⋉talk 01:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Further Comment - Merge: The Southern Episcopal Church has multiple websites, apparently remnants from different decades that were never taken down. They all, however, consistently use a logo that says "The Southern Episcopal Church of the United States" with a subtitle: "Anglican Orthodox". It seems pretty clear that this article, the "Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church" is the same body, and this article should be redirected to Southern Episcopal Church. This article describing it as a splinter group seems to be flawed WP:Original Research, as the sole source on this page says All Saints Church is the cathedral for the Southern Episcopal Church. The talkpage references the incorporation of an entity called the "Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church" with the Tennessee secretary of state, but it is rather routine for an organization to have multiple underlying corporations. Here is a list of affiliated websites, not one of which describes a schism:

• https://allsaints.tripod.com/
• https://www.anglicanchurch.org/
• https://www.angelfire.com/biz/Southern/

I thus conclude the logical and appropriate choice is merge and redirect, removing any reference to a schism. –Zfish118^⋉talk 16:39, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: I found nothing on this: nothing on Google scholar, nothing on Google news, no mention in the 2009 Melton's encyclopedia of American religions. This alleged organisation clearly fails WP:GNG. Since there is nothing properly sourced, there is nothing to merge. Veverve (talk) 05:03, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Possibly merge to Southern Episcopal Church in a separate section headed daughter denominations. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I was able to locate primary sources verifying that it exists. There are conflicting primary sources over whether the Southern Episcopal Church and Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church are the same organization or if the Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church split from the Southern Episcopal Church. Regardless, I could find no independent coverage of the Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church so fails WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Discussion seems to be headed towards either merging or deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --VersaceSpace 🌃 04:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment The Anglicans and the Episcopalians are basically the same church, one exists in areas of British influence, then the Revolution happened and the American branch got renamed (but follows the same religious stuff). The Orthodox Church is what the Christian churches called themselves after the split in 1066. The first two are Protestant groups, the second are older Roman Catholic/sort-of Catholic groups. It makes no sense to try combine the two groups in my mind and that's why finding sources is difficult/impossible. Sic transit gloria mundi. Oaktree b (talk) 20:25, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In this instance, "Orthodox" is being used generically to describe this branch of the Anglican church as "faithful to the gospel". It does not describe a relationship either the Eastern Orthodox Church or oriental churches. –Zfish118^⋉talk 20:40, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge into Southern Episcopal Church as per WP:ATD and the reasoning above by Zfish118. HighKing⁺⁺ 18:51, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge into Southern Episcopal Church. GoodDay (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:07, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: The merge has been executed, with the relevant information from this article being transferred to Southern Episcopal Church. As such, the consensus would seem to be to now turn this page into a redirect for Southern Episcopal Church. I hope the next admin to come across this closes the discussion. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pbritti, it was premature to merge articles before this AFD had been closed. What if the closer comes to a different conclusion? All of your work must be undone. Was it such a burden to wait for this discussion to be closed before launching a merger? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz: You're welcome to review the edits made to the target article using material from this article. As this AfD was not closed, I did not turn this one into a redirect or meddle with its material but did transclude the sourced content to the target. Further, despite three relists and more than a handful of requests for comment, there was no further interaction on this AfD. This is a failure of the closers and a premature accusation on your end. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:14, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not merge or copy during the AfD per the fifth/last point of WP:Guide to deletion#You may edit the article during the discussion (how-to guide, shortcut WP:EDITATAFD). It looks like you rewrote instead of copying – WP:Copying within Wikipedia#Where attribution is not needed (guideline) – so there is no attribution dependency that would interfere with deletion. Flatscan (talk) 04:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Looking at the website again, it appears that "Anglican Orthodox Southern Episcopal Church" is not the name of any denomination, but rather "Anglican" and "Orthodox", being in italics, are merely descriptors: the denomination is the Southern Episcopal Church. Hence, my !vote is still delete. StAnselm (talk) 01:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]