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Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
An admin advising another user to deliberately introduce errors   1 July 2024 0/3/0
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Amendment request: World War II and the history of Jews in Poland Motion (orig. case) 21 June 2024

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An admin advising another user to deliberately introduce errors

Initiated by Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today at 19:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Just Step Sideways

Words can barely describe how much I do not want to do this but I'm afraid it seems needed. I am merely bringing this to the committee, I have no actual involvement in it. The intended scope is admin conduct of Schwede66, who openly admits that they deliberately advised Alexeyevitch via email to introduce some small errors to specific pages, as a sort of ham-handed trap to "prove" that Panamitsu was stalking/hounding them.

So, that's like, really dumb and when confronted with it I would expect an admin of Schwede66's tenure and experience to be able to see it, but I'm afraid they've chosen instead to double down. When directly asked if they would do it again the answer was a resounding yes [4]. This, to me, is the "smoking gun" that says this person has lost their way as an admin.

I'm shocked, frankly, I respect Schwede66, they are a real workhorse at WP:PERM and many other places. I don't have a long list of other serious issues to present, but encouraging a user to vandalize article content to create a "gotcha moment" on another user, then failing to comprehend why others object is a dealbreaker for me. I have said, loudly and often, that we all mistakes, it is what we do when they are pointed out that is the true test. Weaponizing actual article content to try and trap another user is so far out of bounds that doing it to begin with is arguably sufficient cause for a desysop, pledging that you would do so again when the tactic is questioned certainly is. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:47, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would add that this as this is a single-issue case, unless other serious concerns are brought forward it could probably be resolved by motion. I've already presented all the evidence I think is needed in that one diff. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 19:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To all those saying " a trout could have handled this" I would have agreed if it were not for the the apparent deaf ears at ANI and the clear statement that they would do it again. The rebuke had already been given, and the very premise of it was rejected, that is the only reason I brought this here. That being said I am also willing to take Schwede66 at their word when that they say that they now see how firmly the community opposes this sort of chicanery and as such no longer support a desysop.
All too often when things get to this point admins let their ego take over and they refuse to acknowledge an error, and I'm glad that isn't what has happened here. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 15:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Schwede66

Excuse the delay in responding; I had a rather busy day in the office.

Now that a number of editors have weighed in, I see that there is universal disagreement in the community with deliberately introducing errors. I would not have thought that this is where it lands. At ANI, I stated: unless I can be persuaded that I've got this completely the wrong way around, I would do the exact same thing the next time a situation like this arose. I hear what the community says, apologise, and won't do it again. I've been successfully persuaded. Schwede66 05:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alexeyevitch

This has not been an easy decision for me. I was initally skeptical about this because I knew I should not be doing this. I would not like to see this behavior again (from all of us) but it is ultimately Mr. Wilke's decision if he would do the same in the future.

I also think the "gotcha moment" and laying traps for each other is silly. I will not take approaches like this in the future. I primarily edit Christchurch-related articles so naturally I was skeptical seeing these edits.

(IMO) At present time. I don't think this is worth desysoping nor any administrative actions. I don't want this stuff to hapen in the future. Yes, putting little mistakes in about 5-ish articles is wrong (which have all since been reverted). This doesn't change my preference on using U.S English elsewhere. But this behavior cannot continue on those articles.

Mr. Wilke, I don't want to pressurize you but might want to reconsider weaponizing articles in the future. But it is ultimately his decision if he does this or not (in the future). Us three all have wrongdoings and we cannot continue to act like this. Alexeyevitch(talk) 23:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My stress has subsided... I hope my message wasn't confronting. That was not my intent. But I do hope we can prevent this stuff from happening in the future and continue working on the project "civilly". Alexeyevitch(talk) 00:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Panamitsu

I have encountered Schwede66 throughout the 13 months that I have been 'seriously' editing Wikipedia, and I have always enjoyed working with him (and I hope this continues in future). I have never had, or witnessed, any problems with him in the past which suggests that this was one mistake rather than a longlasting problem. This, and the fact that he reported me to the AN/I rather than immediately 'abusing' administrator privileges suggests to me that this event does not demonstrate a lack of administrating competence. Thus, I do not believe that he should stripped of any administrator rights.

It was ultimately up to Alexeyevitch's discretion to decide whether or not to introduce these errors, not Schwede66's. ―Panamitsu (talk) 01:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DeCausa

Arbcom, really? This seems to be the key point per quote from Schwede66 linked by JSS: Hence, we have two situations: an editor worried that he is being stalked and a way of finding out whether that's true, and a spelling mistake in one article, and an unbalanced bracket in another article, for a rather limited period of time. The former, I would suggest, is a problem. The latter is not. However, some editors above make out that the latter is the real problem. I fail to see that. I really do. If we want to build an encyclopaedia, shouldn't we be more worried about editors getting on with one another, and if they really can't, keep them apart from one another, as opposed to fretting about a couple of minor mistakes being introduced temporarily? What am I not getting? Where is the perspective in all of this?And to answer your question directly, unless I can be persuaded that I've got this completely the wrong way around, I would do the exact same thing the next time a situation like this arose. Trout perhaps. At most. I can see this easily getting out of all proportion though, which is regrettable. This is easily handleable by the community with no need for Arbcom involvement. DeCausa (talk) 21:55, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by RoySmith

Just to make it easier to find, the thread in question is currently at WP:ANI#Wikihounding report but it looks like it's going to roll over into Archive 1159 soon.

As for the matter at hand, yeah this was a stupid suggestion for anybody to give, and even more so for a highly-experienced admin. I've worked with Schwede66 quite a bit at WP:DYK and never had any problems with their work, so unless there's some other pattern of problems that I'm not aware of, I would treat this as a one-off. And assuming they understand why this was stupid and endeavor to do better, I can't see this needing anything more than a trouting. RoySmith (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that a similar thing happened a couple of years ago, involving WMF staff inserting material into enwiki pages to use for testing some software. One could start at Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)/Archive 5#Procedures on test accounts and follow the links from there. The gist is that after a lot of yelling and screaming, the WMF folks understood the problem, came up with a plan to prevent it from happening again, and life went on. Exactly like what should happen here. RoySmith (talk) 00:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Newyorkbrad

Deliberately introducing errors into Wikipedia, or encouraging another to do so, is improper; and remains so even where the errors are minor, temporary, and intended to serve a broader purpose. See generally, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/MZMcBride 2 (although that was a more complex set of facts).

The suggestion of making these "test" or "trap" edits was unproductive here in any event, because it seems undisputed that one editor was tracking another's edits, and the relevant question was not whether this was happening but why. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fram#Following another editor's contributions and Wikipedia:Harassment#Hounding.

If, as appears, this is an isolated situation, a general reminder of these principles in the arbitrator comments might suffice to resolve the admin-conduct case request. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AP 499D25

Like what I wrote on the AN/I thread, my good faith assumption tells me that the reason why User:Schwede66 was doing what he was doing, was because he was with the belief that User:Panamitsu was following around and 'stalking' User:Alexeyevitch's edits, and so suggested User:Alexeyevitch to do several more of the kind of edits that would get User:Panamitsu's attention. The big thing that stands out to me here, is that there is no actual abuse of admin privileges. Instead of taking this matter into his own hands, Schwede proceeded to an AN/I report to garner second opinions and suggestions from other users / the community, regarding what is actually going on and who is in the wrong here. Which, it did turn out that this issue wasn't a matter of stalking, rather it was User:Panamitsu watching over and correcting a series of guideline violations from another contributor (this is a legitmate reason for reading another user's contribs history as set out at WP:HOUNDING).

I will definitely admit however that Schwede's response to this matter has been less than satisfactory to me. He did not seem to apologise or take full responsibility for his actions, rather, "shoved them under the rug" (ignored them) if that makes sense. He did get that Alexeyevitch was in the wrong though (putting American English in articles with 'Use NZ English' template), going as far as warning them at AN/I. Since there was no abuse of admin privileges and this seems to be more of a simple behavioural communication issue, I would rather see Schwede66 given one formal warning regarding how they handled this matter, rather than a straight-up removal of admin privileges (as they were not misused).

Also, just to be clear, I don't see a reason for any administrative action to be taken against User:Alexeyevitch at this time. They have owned up to their mistake and have stated they will not do it anymore. — AP 499D25 (talk) 23:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Johnuniq

There is another reason that advising someone to introduce errors is a bad idea. If editor A thinks editor B needs checking, A is welcome to follow B and fix obvious problems. If B introduces errors and A fixes them, that's bad for B and good for A. It's only stalking/hounding if A is fiddling with B's edits when they do not need A's attention. Johnuniq (talk) 00:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AirshipJungleman29

Pretty silly, so I can see why some think a trout is not sufficient. Thus, my suggested motion: a {{whale}} administered with precision and gusto. Anyone disagree? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Deepfriedokra

Meh. A whale, of course. All the way around. However, I'd like to see the other two parties address what they should'nt've done and what they should've done instead. Best. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 01:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chess

Administrators using their judgement to resolve disputes onwiki is their job, and sometimes they get it wrong. These are three principles ArbCom should consider here.

  1. When an admin is unsure of what action to take, they should err on the side of gathering more information.
  2. If an issue is still unclear, administrators should try to resolve an alleged issue rather than doing nothing.
  3. Unclear definitions of bad behaviour discourage administrators from doing something in unclear situations.

Schwede66's actions attempted to address points 1 and 2 but did not do so in a way the community found acceptable. Rather than giving Schwede66 a trout and a general reminder of principles, it would be helpful if ArbCom identified specifically what Schwede66 did right, what they did wrong, and where they could improve if they encountered a similar situation.

Schwede66 acted properly when they intervened in a dispute between Alexeyevitch and Panamitsu, recommending that they stop following each other's edits. When the dispute continued, and Panamitsu began following Alexeyevitch, Schwede66 tried to gather more information. The way they did so was wrong, because Schwede66 advised PanamitsuAlexeyevitch to introduce errors into articles to bait AlexeyevitchPanamitsu into interacting with those errors. Later, Schwede66 did the right thing by bringing the issue to WP:ANI and seeking external input on the dispute.

This is an error in a chain of generally constructive behaviour, and the overall series of events shows that Schwede66's goal was to improve the encyclopedia; they haven't "lost their way" as an admin.

For next steps, ArbCom should decide whether or not "baiting" editors to create proof of WikiHounding is acceptable so long as the "bait" does not consist of disruptive edits. ArbCom might also recommend that Schwede66 consult with other administrators at an earlier stage in the process of dispute resolution, since external input may have prevented this mistake. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edited to fix a mistake. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 23:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GrayStorm

In my opinion, the error on Schwede66's part, if indeed a one time mistake, warrant only a formal warning, and does not require desyoping. However, if this issue were repeated, or if it seems like it might be, I would be more open to the possibility of desyoping. Schwede66 said on AN/I unless I can be persuaded that I've got this completely the wrong way around, I would do the exact same thing the next time a situation like this arose. I think it would be reasonable to assume that, seeing the statements on this page, Schwede66 would be persuaded to not pull the same stunt again, and they could be left with a formal warning. However, if in their statement (which has not been made as of writing this) they express that they would persuade editors to introduce errors into the mainspace (no matter the reason) then I would suggest arbcom move forward with hearing this case. GrayStorm(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.) 04:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon (Schwede66)

The advice that was given by Schwede66 is an interesting twist on the introduction of a fictitious entry in a map as a copyright trap. The purpose of the introduced error was not to detect the improper propagation of the error as evidence of plagiarism, but to detect the correction of the error as evidence of improper stalking. Being intellectually interesting does not mean that it was a good idea; it was not.

ArbCom exists to handle disputes that cannot be resolved by the community. This dispute could have been referred to by the community, because the community has the ability to warn or admonish administrators, although not to remove administrators. This case, in my opinion, calls for either a warning or an admonition, as if the distinction between those two actions is meaningful, and should have gone to WP:AN. The filing party states that this is a single-issue case and can be resolved by motion. Since we are here, it is probably simpler for ArbCom to issue a warning or an admonition than to send it to the community to issue a warning or an admonition. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pinguinn

It is true that it's completely within the community's power to trout Schwede, and that's really all he deserves. However, I agree with Chess and Newyorkbrad that it would be helpful for ArbCom to establish some principles so that this doesn't happen again. In particular I'd like to know where responsibility lies when an admin directs a user to make certain edits. Should the admin take some of the blame for a bad edit?

I don't know if ArbCom has ever passed principles via motion before. If a case has to be opened to pass principles it should probably be very short (no evidence phase and possibly no workshop phase) as all the facts are known and I really don't think Schwede messed up badly enough to have to go through a full size case. Pinguinn 🐧 06:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Waggers

Just Step Sideways was absolutely correct to initiate this case request and I was minded to do the same myself. Like everyone else I hoped we could resolve this at the AN/I thread but, having pointed out that it's never acceptable to deliberately introduce errors - even small/temporary ones - into Wikipedia articles, Schwede66 doubled down and said he'd do the same thing again in the same situation. It was clear we weren't going to resolve the issue there at that point, so unfortunately it had to come here.

I'm pleased though that Schwede66 has had a change of heart in his statement on this page. I've no reason not to assume good faith on that - as others have said he's generally a very competent admin and a well respected editor. It's a shame it took the initiation of an ArbCom case request for him to see the light, but now that he has, I don't think it needs to go any further.

Statement by Levivich

This should be declined as it can be and was being handled just fine by ANI. Arbcom isn't needed for every mistake an admin makes; a warning not to do it again can be issued at ANI (and would have been the outcome had it not been short-circuited by this arbcom filing). More concerning to me is JSS once again intervening on-wiki to effectuate a consensus on WPO. Levivich (talk) 12:56, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Thryduulf

Storm, please meet teacup. There never was anything for arbcom to do here, and following Schwede66's statement above there is even less for them to do. It is a very long-standing principle that occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship and no evidence has been presented that this is anything other than, at worst, an isolated error.

Statement by Joe Roe

Wait, did I accidentally watchlist Wikipedia:Manufactured drama from Wikipediocracy instead of WP:ARC? – Joe (talk) 15:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GRuban

A few people asked what should have been recommended to the user to check for wiki-stalking. A modest suggestion: how about recommend they make useful edits, to pages they had not edited before? There is no shortage of articles that need minor help, for example Wikipedia:Citation_needed#How_to_help_reduce_the_backlog.

As a side note, if someone were following me around and correcting my minor spelling mistakes, I would be overjoyed! I would buy that person a beer! But I recognize that might not be true of everyone. --GRuban (talk)

Statement by Amakuru

Not too much to add here, and thankfully (as someone who considers Schwede66 a good wikifriend) this seems to be headed towards a peaceful outcome. However, I do consider the statements above by Thruduulf and Joe Roe to be wide of the mark. To advise Alexeyevitch to deliberately introduce errors was a good-faith but rather silly mistake IMHO, whether hounding was suspected or not, and it seems to have become more worrying when Schwede refused to acknowledge in the ANI thread that they had made a mistake and said they would repeat this. For WP:ADMINACCT issues, arbcom is the only place to really go. Thus, per Waggers statement and the nominator, I think it was necessary for this request to be made. But it's also done its job and Schwede has now apologised, so an actual case isn't needed. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Non-party}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

An admin advising another user to deliberately introduce errors: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

An admin advising another user to deliberately introduce errors: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/3/0>

Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)

  • Just acknowledging that I am reading this and looking forward to hearing from Schwede. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:40, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Decline The thread might have been open two weeks but the precipitating post to this case request only happened yesterday. I think we would have likely gotten this result - Schwede realizing that they shouldn't do what happened here again - at ANI, though I imagine it happened quicker because of the case request. I also appreciate Thrydullf's mentioning a perennial ArbCom principle that Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with adminship; administrators are not expected to be perfect. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline - Per the comments by Just Step Sideways and Schwede66 since the case request was opened. This was brought here as a single issue, and absent evidence to the contrary that this is more than an isolated incident, I see no reason to not take Schwede66 at their word that it will not reoccur. - Aoidh (talk) 16:44, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read through the above. Leaning toward declining as the issue that brought this case to ArbCom seems to be handled at ANI. I am going to wait a couple of days to make a declaration as I want to allow editors to bring forward concerns, if necessary. Z1720 (talk) 17:31, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline per the above and the statement by Schwede66. Primefac (talk) 18:38, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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