Talk:Valencia

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Infobox image

I think the infobox picture in the current version of the article features too much image cluttering, with so many small images, somewhat beating the purpose of the illustration. The rendering of .png images does not work particularly well with small photographs either. While I would rather favor just one panoramic picture, I understand the conveniences editors see in image collages. I leave here an alternative proposal, reducing the number of images (just 5 elements), increasing the size of each photograph, and, of course, somewhat changing the selection.--Asqueladd (talk) 00:29, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Current infobox picture
Proposal
Ciutat de les Arts i les Ciències
Llotja de Valencia
View from the Micalet
Small alquería in the Albufera
A ninot during the beginning of the mascletà

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"Valéncia" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Valéncia has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 18 § Valéncia until a consensus is reached. CycloneYoris talk! 09:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Valencia climate is hot semi-arid

The normal climates shows that the total annual precipitation in Valencia is less than its thereshold, which means that the climate is semi-arid, regardless of the rest. You can see that the only exceptions in the world are Antarctica, the Arctic and other regions in group E.

Furhermore, the Koppen map made by AEMET shows that Valencia falls into a hot semi-arid climate [1] (page 19) Farell37 (talk) 17:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You all need to go read WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:RS. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not WP:OR, WP:V or WP:RS. We are talking about AEMET which is the most RS for climate in Spain. Also, you are ignoring the thereshold of the city. Why you say it's hot mediterranean when all evidences shows it is hot semi-arid? The theres hold is 512 mm and the annual precipitation is 457 mm. It's not about original research, it's about the Koppen climate classification itself. Literally, this universal Koppen map [2] is wrong and does not correspond with the original AEMET Koppen map [3][4]
AEMET is an RS and is the main source for climate in Spain. You are ignoring this maps and also ignoring the thereshold. Again, this is not original research. Original research is adding to the Wikipedia without citing reliable sources. There is an AEMET source showing that the climate of Valencia is hot semi-arid and not mediterranean. Farell37 (talk) 21:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your first paragraph is OR. And you are correct that it is not RS. GA-RT-22 (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we check the official AEMET source (AEMET is the official Spanish Met Agency) directly from their website:
https://www.aemet.es/en/serviciosclimaticos/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos
Click into that source and select "Köppen climate classification" from the upper expandable list.
Valencia city itself is indeed hot semi-arid (BSh) as @Farell37: claims. Still, it's true that a good part of the municipality of Valencia goes far to the south (see Valencia#Districts) so to be completely specific I would say:
- The city of Valencia has a hot semi-arid BSh climate, while its municipality is transitional between hot semi-arid (BSh) and Mediterranean (Csa) WikiEditor1890 (talk) 10:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Please engage on the talk page and why you think it's not hot semi-arid. The BRD you talk about cannot be used when What BRD is not. This should not be an excuse to revert an edit just because you want it Farell37 (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Farell37::
  1. you say: "why you think it's not hot semi-arid" - where did I write that Valencia does not have a semi-arid climate? Where?
  2. can you read English? Did you read the article or didn't feel like it? There is a detailed description in the stable version of the article, I quote: "Valencia and its metropolitan area have a Mediterranean climate (Köppen: Csa) bordering on a semi-arid climate (Köppen: BSh)". The article show about a semi-arid climate. In fact, Valencia lies on the border of these two climates (Mediterranean climate / semi-arid climate).
  3. your "hot semi-arid" is unacceptable, you need to provide a neutral and standard term, e.g. semi-arid climate. For two reasons: there is no article of "hot semi-arid" and Koppen's classification is not the only classification in the world. Koppen's classification mainly uses prefixes such as "hot" or "cold" but we are to use a neutral description consistent with many climate classifications, not just Koppen.
  4. your source is insufficient, it does not say directly that Valencia is located within a semi-arid climate. If you think I'm wrong, please provide a quote from the source and the page number. At the moment this looks like a violation of the Wikipedia:No original research.
  5. by the way, the most commonly used climate term for Valencia used by most climate classifications is subtropical climate - so, your claim that Valencia only has a "hot semi arid" climate because that's what you read from the Koppen' map is ridiculous and it violates of the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 13:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion I said that, because you were removing that information, giving the impression that you disagree that the climate is not hot semi-arid. While the entire metropolitan area can be actually a borderline between a mediterranean climate (Csa) and semi-arid climate (BSh), the city of Valencia is fully hot semi-arid, not mediterranean. Also, how you say that my source is insufficient, when the source I put on is AEMET source. It's the most reliable source for climate in Spain.
Also, don't try to divert the conversation with other climate classifications, as the main focus is on the Valencia climate classification, using Koppen, which is widely used. There are other climate classifications of course, but they can be discussed on the Climate of Valencia.
Furthermore, do you know how climate classification works? It's not just based on maps or any other sources. It is based on presented climate data. It is not original research, but rather classifying the climate based on climate data. A clear example of this is Los Angeles, which many sources say is Mediterranean, but climate data clearly shows that the city is hot semi-arid, while its metropolitan area is a borderline between Mediterranean and semi-arid. Also, the source that proves where it says that Valencia's climate is a borderline between Mediterranean and semi-arid, is the AEMET source, which again, shows that the climate of the city of Valencia is hot semi-arid, while its metropolitan area can be described as borderline.
It is more correct and appropriate to say that the city's climate is hot semi-arid, while its metropolitan area is a borderline between the Mediterranean climate and the semi-arid climate. In Climate of Valencia, the same thing and on this same page we also include other climate classifications. Farell37 (talk) 14:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Farell37::
  1. You say: "I said that, because you were removing that information" - I didn't remove any information, I restored the previous version because your new version removed information about the Mediterranean climate. The previous version (stable) included information about both climates.
  2. You say: "While the entire metropolitan area can be actually a borderline between a mediterranean climate (Csa) and semi-arid climate (BSh), the city of Valencia is fully hot semi-arid, not mediterranean" - Exactly. And that's the point. You don't understand what you write and read. Read your sentence a few times and think a bit. You confirmed what is in the current (stable) version of the article. I am quoting the content from the article: "Valencia and its metropolitan area have a Mediterranean climate (Köppen: Csa) bordering on a semi-arid climate (Köppen: BSh)". Article show clearly that this applies "Valencia and its metropolitan area" (not only to the city center).
  3. You say: "Also, don't try to divert the conversation with other climate classifications, as the main focus is on the Valencia climate classification, using Koppen, which is widely used. There are other climate classifications of course, but they can be discussed on the Climate of Valencia" - no we can not. What you write is contrary to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The rules require that content from several sources be provided in a balanced manner.
  4. about sources. The source must present that Valencia has a semi-arid climate. Your source only shows maps for interpretation. This doesn't meet the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability.
TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Also, the high humidity levels only happens on eastern and southeastern coast of Spain. Cities like Málaga, Cádiz, Tarifa, Ayamonte it does not have humidity levels as high as the coastal cities in the east and southeast of Spain. This is because the water temperatures in these cities are colder than the eastern and southeastern mediterranean coast. Remember that the source specifically says ONLY about Valencia, not other cities on the coast. It should be aproppriated to remove (just like in many other seaside cities), because the source only applies to Valencia city.
About the climate of Valencia, the city itself it's fully semi-arid, while the metropolitan area can be borderline between a mediterranean climate and a hot semi-arid climate. If you don't know how to classify a climate, then stop reverting others edits. Saying "Valencia and its metropolitan area has borderline between a mediterranean climate and a hot semi-arid climate" is not the same as saying "Valencia has a hot semi-arid climate, while the metropolitan area has a borderline climate between mediterranean and hot semi-arid". That's the difference. Metropolitan area and the city itself cannot be put on the same sentence. In conclusion, we can say "Valencia has a hot semi-arid climate, while its metropolitan area has a transitional climate between a hot summer mediterranean climate and a hot semi-arid climate" Farell37 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the fragment about "many other cities" will be removed, I will use the template (from Template:Citation needed family) for the tree content and the source - as misleading content. Very many cities on the coast have high humidity and therefore heat index will be higher than inland. These entire sentence along with the source are not POV because they depict Valencia as humid and hot, even though thousands of other cities are omitted in the source, which also have a higher index than inland cities. Moreover, the source itself is also of questionable quality. Back to the previous topic - about your sources. The source must present that Valencia has a semi-arid climate. Your source only shows maps for interpretation. This doesn't meet the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 17:32, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Do you really know how to classifiy a climate? It's based on climate data, based on the most recent period. Also, the AEMET source shows that the climate of Valencia is mediterranean? No, it shows it's hot semi-arid. I only agree with you on metropolitan area, but the city itself is hot semi-arid, not a borderline climate. That's why it's important to separate this and say "Valencia has a hot semi-arid climate, while its metropolitan area has a transitional climate between a hot summer mediterranean climate and a hot semi-arid climate." Try to find an Wikipedia page where climate classification does not match climate data. There is no need to actually put a source that says that the climate is Mediterranean or semi-arid. The climate classification is purely based on recent climate data. Farell37 (talk) 17:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Farell37: - I repeat the question: does the source say that the city of Valencia (without the metropolitan area) has a semi-arid climate? Please provide a quote and page number. No, it's not about your interpretation of the map. (Your) interpretation of the map from the source is not consistent with Wikipedia rules like Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 17:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion And I repeat again: do you really know how to classify a climate? Again, try to find a Wikipedia page where the climate classification does not match the climate data. If you go to page 19 on this source [5], you will see much maps of climate. The important is the 1991-2020 map and you can see that Valencia city is fully hot semi-arid, while metropolitan area has a cold semi-arid areas and borderline areas with a hot semi-arid area and a mediterranean climate.
I just want you to answer this question: do you know how to classify a climate? Based on climate data. You can see an example here: Talk:Los Angeles#Semi-arid climate? Farell37 (talk) 17:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Farell37: - you say "do you know how to classify a climate?"?!? The problem is that you're missing the obvious point. Here is Wikipedia. You have no right to classify the climate based on a map. The source must clearly state that Valencia has a semi-arid climate. This sentence must be citable.Even if the source provides maps or even tables, you cannot write on the basis of such data that the city has an X climate - Wikipedia's rules prohibit this. I wasted so much time on this discussion because you simply don't know Wikipedia's rules. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 17:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion So how do you want us to classify a climate? Based on nothing or simply whatever you want? It is based on climate data. What's the part about not understanding that?
You are not being neutral on this and you are reversing my edits solely based on your point of view, ignoring the sources and climate data that classify Valencia's climate as hot semi-arid. Since you don't want to reach a consensus, it's better to do an RfC. Farell37 (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can try in RfC, but the problem is that you are trying to enter change based on your interpretation of the map, thus breaking Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, classifying the climate basing on climate data is not original research when the source of climate data comes from a respected organization, which in this case is AEMET. So we cannot speak of original research. Furthermore, AEMET is the best source of climate information in Spain, so there is no verifiability problem here Farell37 (talk) 18:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a joke? Your "classifying" the climate basing on climate data is Original Research!!!!!! EVEN the source of climate data comes from God. You can try in RfC, but the stable version ("Valencia and its metropolitan area have a Mediterranean climate (Köppen: Csa) bordering on a semi-arid climate') contained a compromise and was neutral towards both the thesis about the Mediterranean and semi-arid climate, showing the problem from a broader perspective (agglomeration). Your version focuses only on the city area within administrative borders (because, as you wrote, the metropolitan area has two climates), it is not neutral and is based only on your interpretation of the map thus breaking Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. Your chances for consensus are rather slim. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please cool down! So how do you think climate classification is done? Through nowhere? Or just like magic? Does AEMET classify the climate of the city of Valencia as semi-arid just because it carries out original research and because it wants it to be semi-arid? Have you ever tried looking for other Wikipedia page where the climate classification doesn't match the climate data? I could give you a thousand examples, but it would take a long time.
There was another user here in the discussion who said that the city's climate is hot semi-arid and that its metropolitan area is a transitional between the Mediterranean climate and the semi-arid climate. He was based exactly on what I was based on. Farell37 (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my God. It is impossible. Did you really write that?: "Does AEMET classify the climate of the city of Valencia as semi-arid just because it carries out original research and because it wants it to be semi-arid?". Man, this isn't about that at all. You didn't read at all and you didn't understand Wikipedia:No original research. I think it would be better to notify the administrator. The administrator should make sure you understand Wikipedia's policies (Wikipedia:Competence is required). You had an edit war and a long discussion because you don't understand the Wikipedia:No original research at all. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does the AEMET source provides you that the city itself is semi-arid?[6] [7] I'm not making any original research, when the data comes from AEMET. Since when this is original research? Where is the source that shows the city it's not fully semi-arid? Again, the metropolitan area is actually a borderline, but the city itself is fully semi-arid as you can see. Farell37 (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not about the source as such. AEMET is reliable source. I'm writing this for the last time. Next time I'll call the administrator. Wikipedia:Competence is required The source (AEMET) must write directly and in a quotable manner "Valencia has a semi-arid climate" or similar per Wikipedia:Verifiability (there must be a quote as proof for the term). The source doesn't say this. AEMET only presented maps to your own interpretation. Your own interpretation (even if the source is from God) always is the original research. Simpler: You want to have a source consistent with Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research, AEMET must publish a work in which it interprets its maps and writes directly that Valencia has a semi-arid climate. Only the description of the interpreted maps is a source in accordance with Wikipedia rules, not maps at all. You, as a Wikipedia user, have no right to interpret maps because it will always be OR. Always. These maps must be interpreted by the source (not you). Always. Remember, Wikipedia:Competence is required, you have a responsibility to understand the rules of the Wikipedia. This is mandatory/obligatory. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Calling an administrator for what? I'm not disrespecting anything. Both you and I were doing edit warring, which is why it has now been stopped and that is why we have to reach a consensus.
And do you know that there are exceptions that is not considered original research? One of them is acceptable media, which includes graphs, tables, charts that prove that a certain region belongs to that climate. This is what climate classification is based on. There is no Wikipedia page that cites a source that specifically says "this climate is Mediterranean". They are based on climate data and in this case it is not original research. A proof of that see this: Talk:Los Angeles#Semi-arid climate? It's based on climate data to me and the other user to classify the climate. The climate data shows that Los Angeles is hot semi-arid. not mediterranean. The user agreed and we changed it. He is an experienced user of Wikipedia. It's not about original research and you can see there's no source that especifically says the climate is semi-arid. Farell37 (talk) 19:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tables and charts are a form that allows reading data without interpretation by user of the Wikipedia like you. Maps are different. There are no administrative boundaries of the city or the territory of the metropolitan area marked on the map. Where the Mediterranean climate ends and where the semi-arid begins is presented graphically without description, so it depends on your interpretation and your knowledge of where the city and metropolitan area boundaries are. It is unacceptable for your interpretation of the map / your original research, to be presented in two articles. There would be no problem if there was one version, e.g. all studies, maps and sources presented Valencia with a semi-arid climate. But no. There are sources also for a Mediterranean climate and other climate classifications present Valencia with a subtropical climate. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 20:00, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are the only person who thinks that for a certain climate to be proven, it is necessary to have a specific source that says so. Again, look for Wikipedia pages that cite sources that specifically say the climate is Mediterranean, for example. Are you going to ignore that? I'll give you examples to help you: Milan, Rome, Paris, New York, Madrid, Lisbon, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Bucharest, Berlin, London, etc. I could give many more examples. Do you think that the fact that so many pages don't have a specific source that the climate is Mediterranean or something like that is everyone's original research? In this case it is an exception and is not considered original research. Farell37 (talk) 20:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that many articles about cities use the above-mentioned methods that violate the Wikipedia rule. It is possible that in some time this will be discussed in more detail in the RfC, which may result in a final decision on this matter. However, there is another problem in Valencia case that I wrote about earlier. Maps are different compared to tables and charts. There are no administrative boundaries of the city or the territory of the metropolitan area marked on the map. Where the Mediterranean climate ends and where the semi-arid begins is presented graphically without description, so it depends on your interpretation and your knowledge of where the city and metropolitan area boundaries are. For example, on the map I see the city of Valencia as Csa (Mediterranean climate) and the metropolitan area (in my eyes) has both a Mediterranean (part area) and semi-arid climate (part area). Therefore, there can be no room for interpretation here. The Valencia agglomeration lies in two climates (Mediterranean and semi-arid) - and here we agree. There are no city or metropolitan area boundaries marked on the map. So we have to take your word for it despite the fact that they differ from the standards because most sources write about the Mediterranean climate. Therefore, in the current situation, there is no chance that you will introduce a semi-arid climate as the only one for Valencia. Besides, the current version (stable version) at least contains some compromise, presents both climates (Mediterranean and semi-arid). Summary: you are trying to remove the Mediterranean climate from two articles, even though there are (not very reliable, but still) sources writing about the Mediterranean climate. And you base your thesis only on the fact that you read something like this from an low quality map without marked borders, despite the fact that you yourself stated that the borders of the semi-arid and Mediterranean climate run through the agglomeration of the Valencia. The more I analyze your idea, the more I am sure that your actions are ridiculous. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you aware that there is a possibility that these sources are outdated and do not correspond to the new reference periods (1991-2020)? The climate classification is based on the most recent climate data, that is, from the most recent reference period (1991-2020 in this case), not on old data. The city of Madrid previously had a Mediterranean climate, but due to climate change, both natural and human causes, Madrid's climate has become semi-arid. Some cities may change their climate classification over time and why do they change? Due to recent climate data.
If on the Valencia page we actually include the metropolitan area, then the Mediterranean climate is not removed. What I want to do is separate the 2. Just say that the city of Valencia has a semi-arid climate, as climate data shows and the metropolitan area of ​​Valencia has a transitional climate between Mediterranean and semi-arid.
Now, you're saying that most Wikipedia pages that don't specifically cite a source that says directly for example "the climate is Mediterranean" is a violation of Wikipedia, is absurd. So many pages breaking Wikipedia policies? If it were just occasional cases I would still believe in you, but that's the majority of them. If we are to take this seriously, then we would have to remove the description of their climate classification in most cities, just because they do not cite a specific source that says so. It is absurd to think that all pages that have a climate section and say their climate classification without citing a source that says, for example, "the climate is Mediterranean", but it shows the climate data that proves its climate classification. And what's more, most pages are of this type that I said above.
The RfC will be used to find out whether this is really against Wikipedia's policies or not. If not, you have no reason to complain and changes will be made based on climate data. Farell37 (talk) 21:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think about this wording?:
Under Köppen climate classification, Valencia's metropolitan area has a transitional climate between Mediterranean climate and Semi-arid climate
And this source[1] clearly shows a color that belongs to semi-arid designation and the formulations and calculations are also stated there. Maps for Spain and Southern Europe are also found in Wikimedia commons showing semi-arid color for the area around Valencia (and some slight colors for mediterranean)
This one [2] is even more obvious, with BSk/BSh deignation where Valencia and its airport are shown, Csa apeears to the south and should have lower priority compared to BS.
And I think nothing would happen if I don't highlight @TravelerFromEuropeanUnion to see the sources I and @WhatamIdoing have provided here.PAper GOL (talk) 08:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC) PAper GOL (talk) 08:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This huge discussion seems to have spiraled out of control. Someone up there seems to doubt whether Valencia is a Semi-arid climate, or at least whether the cited source proves it to their personal satisfaction. I therefore give you four sources saying that Valencia is, indeed, in a semi-arid climate.
  • Situated on the east coast about 185 miles south of Barcelona, Valencia has a semi-arid climate...[8]
  • While the south of Valencia is semi-arid in nature...[9]
  • [10] has a map clearly placing the city of Valencia inside the semi-arid region
  • [11] has a table listing the city of Valencia as BSk (=the Köppen climate classification code for hot semi-arid climates).
Note that "original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists". These reliable, published sources obviously do exist and clearly do contain the "material" that Valencia is semi-arid. Therefore, saying that Valencia is semi-arid cannot possibly be considered WP:Original research within the meaning of our policies.
For context, "Seventy per cent of Spain's surface is subject to a semi-arid climate with recurring droughts and strong seasonal variability of rainfall" (doi:10.1787/5kgj3l0ggczt-en), so this should not be a very surprising result.
I have also found one source that lists Valencia (specifically the Valencia Airport) as being classifiable under both Bsk and Csa (=hot dry summers/Mediterranean). If someone would like to argue that Valencia is both Bsk and Csa, then I suggest trying to make the most of this source, but I do not think it is credible to claim that the city of Valencia is definitely not semi-arid. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BSk means COLD semi-arid not hot (hot has BSh designation if you notice the third letter).PAper GOL (talk) 08:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. (I think maybe I won't fix my typo.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly! Thank you for sharing another reliable sources that proves the climate of Valencia city is hot semi-arid. Climate data of Valencia clearly shows that the city itself is hot semi-arid and can be enough to proof that. The AEMET maps are also clear, besides to the climate data. The metropolitan area is transitional, because there are zones with mediterranean climate as well, but again, the city itself is fully hot semi-arid (BSh).I don't know if @TravelerFromEuropeanUnion refuse to believe that Valencia's climate is semi-arid, but the fact is that AEMET sources and climate data prove that Valencia's climate is hot semi-arid.
In this case, it cannot be considered original research, because the climate data comes from the best source (AEMET) and meets Koppen's criteria. Original research means adding information that is not written in the sources, or adding content that has no source cited or comes from unreliable sources. Farell37 (talk) 13:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Farell37, you still don't understand the Wikipedia:No original research. AEMET only provided inaccurate maps without marked administrative boundaries and tables, you are breaking the OR rule by interpreting this data. For there to be no original research, AEMET or another source must interpret the maps and tables and display a result that can be cited. Literally, based only on AEMET data (tables and Koppen' maps), all we can say is this: "According to the opinion of an user Farell37 who interpreted the maps by Koppen and tables provided by AEMET, Valencia has a semi-arid climate". There's no simpler way to explain Wikipedia:No original research. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion, no, you're wrong. They're not breaking any rules. First of all, "AEMET only provided inaccurate maps" means "I don't think this is a reliable source". Second, understanding what a map, table or chart actually says is not "interpreting this data" in any way that is incompatible with our Wikipedia:No original research rules.
Third, and most importantly, when multiple different reliable sources say the same thing, some of them using the exact words "Valencia has a semi-arid climate", then it doesn't matter what the source you disagree with says or whether it's been misinterpreted. OR means that not a single reliable source in the entire world, in any language, has ever said that thing. The options per policy are:
  • At least one reliable source in the world says that Valencia has a semi-arid climate, so it's not original research.
  • Absolutely no reliable sources anywhere in the world, in any language, ever, has ever said that Valencia has a semi-arid climate, so it is original research.
Your choices therefore are:
  • You don't know what OR means, or
  • You don't believe that the reliable source quoted above actually says "Valencia has a semi-arid climate".
The option that sounds like "Sure, I guess that technically that reliable source says Valencia has a semi-arid climate, but I don't agree with the source" is not OR. That option might be Wikipedia:POV pushing, but it's not OR. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Farell37, cool down a bit. So far, two other users (PAper GOL, WhatamIdoing) have commented but they do not have exactly the same opinion as you. The above sources from WhatamIdoing cannot be confirmed at the moment - 23 may, 7:00PM 1UTC), because Google Books displays a message about too many views of the book and not display the content. I have to wait until the sources is available again. WhatamIdoing say: "I have also found one source that lists Valencia (specifically the Valencia Airport) as being classifiable under both Bsk and Csa (=hot dry summers/Mediterranean). If someone would like to argue that Valencia is both Bsk and Csa, then I suggest trying to make the most of this source, but I do not think it is credible to claim that the city of Valencia is definitely not semi-arid" and also given by one of the sources with this: "While the south of Valencia is semi-arid in nature". This source proves nothing in this discussion. I would like to remind you that neither I nor anyone else denies that the Valencia area and its metropolitan area has also a semi-arid climate. The entire discussion here is solely about the fact that the new changes pushed by Farell37 remove information about the Mediterranean climate altogether. The stable version of the article contains both climates, both Mediterranean and semi-arid, which means it contains a compromise. The above discussion also proved that the user Farell37 tried to remove the Mediterranean climate even though he did not have new sources provided by the WhatamIdoing user, and based everything only on what he saw on Koppen's map and based on the number of rainfall, which in this case is a violation of the Wikipedia:No original research. Also, the above discussion proved that the user Farell37 tried to remove the Mediterranean climate, despite the fact that the Valencia metropolitan area also has a Mediterranean climate, and there is not a single person here who would deny this. I support user PAper GOL's proposal (Under Köppen climate classification, Valencia's metropolitan area has a transitional climate between Mediterranean climate and Semi-arid climate), but with a change to simplify the first sentence on the top of Valencia#Climate and Climate of Valencia:
1) "Valencia's metropolitan area has a transitional climate between Mediterranean climate and Semi-arid climate"
or
2) "Valencia metropolitan area have a Mediterranean climate bordering on a semi-arid climate"
or
3) "Valencia metropolitan area lies on the border of the Mediterranean and a semi-arid climate"
with the place for more detailed information (Koppen clasification, abbreviations Csa, Bsh) in the body of the article + information from other climate classifications. This sentences are consistent with the opinion of all users participating in the discussion here and is neutral. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Do you have any problem putting "Valencia has an semi-arid climate, while the metropolitan area has a transtional climate between Mediterranean climate and semi-arid climate"? Because the article is about the city of Valencia, not just the metropolitan area. The metropolitan area is included already in the Climate of Valencia page. We can still mantain the mediterranean climate, just adding the metropolitan area. Everyone here agrees that the metropolitan area is a borderline between mediterranean and semi-arid. The other users have the same opinion as mine: the city of Valencia is hot semi-arid. City is not the same as metropolitan area.
Putting these phrase would have no more controversial things. Everyone here agrees that the city of Valencia (not the metropolitan area) has a semi-arid climate. It's important to separate the things, because the city of Valencia is not borderline, it's actually semi-arid. So separate the things and saying "Valencia has an semi-arid climate, while the metropolitan area has a transtional climate between Mediterranean climate and semi-arid climate" is correct. Farell37 (talk) 18:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What the traveler says is "You must clearly verify with the source that the city is semi-arid and not Mediterranean at all".
I admit that the OR part is a bit tough. I know one website that provides Koppen/Trewartha classification of a location by giving the location's coordinates. here is the link, it shows the difference between journals for the classification.
Problem is, that this source shows the classification for only one coordinate and not for a large urban area.
By the way, why do you insist on differentiating between the city proper and the metropolitan area? Climate and Biome are not something one would research and classify for small areas.PAper GOL (talk) 19:07, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The city of Valencia falls clearly on a hot semi-arid climate, while the metropolitan area is actually a borderline. You can see that the thereshold is 512 mm for Valencia city and 498 mm for Valencia Airport. If the precipitation values are lower than the thereshold, is classified as semi-arid climate, aridity indices prevail over other climatic groups, even tropical ones. This is not original research: see Koppen's climate criteria. That's why is important to separate the city and metropolitan area. If both was borderline, then good, no need to separate. But in this case is not borderline. The city of Valencia is fully hot semi-arid, while the airport is borderline between cold semi-arid and hot semi-arid. Farell37 (talk) 19:15, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly PAper GOL. Farell37 - first of all: I don't see on the maps that Valencia, within its administrative borders, has only a semi-arid climate, so don't write word of "everyone". I neither confirm nor deny it. The maps are too imprecise and do not mark the city boundaries. Second, climate is a concept subject to broadly understood Geography, administrative borders are an artificial political creation. Urban planning and settlement (metropolitan area) is part of broadly understood Geography, which is the same as climate. Therefore, we can safely omit what the climate is like in the territory of artificial political borders. for climatic issues it is more reasonable to use Valencia area / metropolitan area or similar., not city proper. Thirdly, as PAper GOL mentioned: Climate and Biome are not something one would research and classify for small areas. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 19:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion @PAper GOL I understand that the maps are inaccurate and therefore resolving the issue of putting together Valencia and the metropolitan area due to this confusion would be a resolution. However, you are completely forgetting the climate data for the city of Valencia. This climate data fits perfectly into the hot semi-arid climate, not the Mediterranean climate. That's why the city of Valencia is hot semi-arid, not Mediterranean. Separating the 2 is essential, as Valencia's climate data does not show it to be Mediterranean. In relation to the biome, this is insignificant in this discussion. Nobody talked about biomes here. I am proving that Valencia's climate is hot semi-arid based on climate data, not biomes. I never said that the Valencia biome was semi-arid or Mediterranean. Farell37 (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Farell37: and Fourthly, it is ridiculous to forcefully distinguish between two types of climate in Valencia area, because they differ only "slightly" in rainfall. The climatical differences are minimal, and you present it as if they were two completely different areas in terms of climate (Valencia city proper - Valencia metropolitan area). TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 19:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion I am sorry, but precipitation within semi-arid climates varies CONSIDERABLY between semi-arid cities. Do you know why climates are semi-arid? Because of the thereshold.
To calculate the threshold precipitation, it depends a little on the type of climate classification you use. According to the Koppen climate classification, thereshold is calculated as follows:
Multiply the average annual temperature by 2. Then multiply by 10. This is the result of umbral precipitation. Then, it is important to take into account the % of precipitation that occurs in the hottest months of the year (april to september on northen hemisphere and october to march on southern hemisphere):
-If less than 30% of the average annual precipitation occurs in the hottest months of the year, then no value is added. Example of a mean annual temperature of 17.5 in which less than 30% of precipitation occurs between the hottest months of the year. 17.5*2 = 35. As I said, it is multiplied at the end by 10, so the threshold precipitation in this case is 350 mm.
-If between 30 and 70% of the average annual precipitation occurs between the hottest months of the year, then +14 is added to the result of multiplying the average annual temperature by 2. Example of a mean annual temperature of 17.5 in which at least 30% of precipitation but less than 70% occurs between the hottest months of the year: 17.5*2 = 35+14=49. Multiply by 10 and the hereshold is 490 mm.
-If more than 70% of precipitation occurs in the hottest months of the year, then +28 is added.
But why is important to take into account the % precipitation that occurs in the hottest months of the year? In the hottest months, evaporation of water from the soil and plants can be high, which can worsen the region's aridity. Therefore, even if some precipitation occurs in the warmer months, if this amount is not enough to compensate for evaporation and provide adequate water for vegetation and other organisms, the region can be classified as semi-arid. The more rain that occurs in the hottest months of the year, the greater the thereshold needed to overcome evaporation and sustain local vegetation and ecosystems.
Now take a look to the climate data of Valencia. Does the annual precipitation is lower than the thereshold? If yes, than it's semi-arid. This is not original research, this is Koppen climate criterias: [12] Farell37 (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, This would be routine calculation because we have the sources for the formulas and the value of the parameters.PAper GOL (talk) 19:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it's about routine calculation and it's an exception of not being original research. Farell37 (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes the data for the city's Station is BSh and I can verify it if I get access to its coordinates. But its just one station inside the city proper and one in the suburbs. We cannot say that all of the city is fully semi-arid.
And no. There is no obligation to separate the city proper from the metropolitan area, especially for a broad concept like climate.PAper GOL (talk) 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Valencia airport is a borderline between a cold semi-arid climate and hot semi-arid climate, because the annual average temperature is 17.9ºC for 1991-2020. The city itself can be considered hot semi-arid without any problem, because we are talking about the city, not metropolitan area. See Los angeles. It's a similar situation, but I reached an agreement with another user and we separated the 2, because the city of Los Angeles is semi-arid in the new period, while the metropolitan area is a borderline between Mediterranean and semi-arid. Farell37 (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Farell37, your behavior looks like this, sample data: on plaza in Valencia city center rainfall is 431 mm, it is obvious that the climate is semi-desert, but 1 meter beyond the city limits in the park there is already 435 mm, it is a completely different climate - Mediterranean, because Koppen gives 434 mm as the boundary between both climates - the Koppen tables are clear :D :D Later you write that it is necessary to distinguish these two places, writing in the article that the square in the center has a different atmosphere than the park 1 meter outside the city limits (metropolitan area). I hope that with this example I have shown the absurdities you strive for. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Please stop engaging in these types of behaviors. You are millimeters away from breaking the Wikipedia:No personal attacks rule. I'm basing it on weather stations and the way you're reacting is disrespectful. AEMET's professional meteorological station is used to collect climate data for the city of Valencia and its data shows that the city is semi-arid, not Mediterranean. Of course, precipitation can vary across the city, but again, more than 30% of the average annual precipitation occurs in the summer months and that's why it's semi-arid. Farell37 (talk) 19:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The LA metropolitan area is quite massive and is not even comparable to Valencia, Los Angeles may not comprise even half of the metro area. And it also has a dozen of stations (LA downtown, LAX airport, San Bernardino, Anaheim, Santa Ana, etc.)PAper GOL (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of you seem like to assume good faith right now, and this way I don't think we get any results from this discussion.PAper GOL (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For my part, I believe it's because I want to include Valencia's semi-arid climate. I would like to do this to differentiate the city a little, since there are differences in this. Also, I have no idea how big the Valencia metropolitan area is. I already see the spanish wikipedia page to see how big is metropolitan area [13] And from what I understand, I think it's the red area, but I can't confirm nothing. Farell37 (talk) 20:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Farell37, please learn to read with understanding and think about what the author wants to convey. It's not about the source on which you made your interpretation. My previous comment is not about that at all. It's about your forcible dismemberment city vs metropolitan area. This may not have been nice, but I used this example to show you how your arguments can be seen. I wrote this for you to sit down and think a little about what other users are writing about. You don't use any reflections, you just write over and over again that you use Koppen maps and the AEMET table, blah, blah, blah. These are the same problems with you as before. You can't totally understand Wikipedia:No original research and now - what we trying to tell you. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Koppen criterias is not original research. Please understand that. It's about routine calculation. I don't know if you understand the point. Farell37 (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Farell37, I understand. And thank you. You just made an argument against yourself. You took the rainfall number and compared it to guidelines by Koppen, right? Everything is understandable. But two issues arose.
  1. Koppen is just one climate classification, and Wikipedia's rules are clear: different opinions must be taken into account. In the Koppen classification, some difference in rainfall changes the climate classes, but they may do so differently than in other climate classifications.
  2. rainfall number and compared it to guidelines by Koppen? Ok, but where do you get the climate data with rainfall numbers and other rainfall data? From the climate station. One is in the city center, the other at the airport in the metropolitan area. So when you have rainfall data from a station in the city center and compare this data to the Koppen guidelines, you have a picture of the climate of the city center (where the climate station is). These are not figures from other districts within the city's administrative boundaries. so what right do you have to write in an article that the entire city has the same climate as the climate station in the city center? You write that the (whole city by administrative borders) Valencia has (only and the only) a semi-arid climate because you interpreted Koppen's guidelines for station in the city center.
Therefore it is important to give a broader climate picture (metropolitan area) and not focus on mm of rain from a climate station in the city center. Remember, please read and think about what the author wants to convey. TravelerFromEuropeanUnion (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(I think airports are more typical locations for climate stations, but a large city could have many.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion I am not arguing about the other climate classifications. Just from Koppen. It is the most used of all the others, but I agree that other climate classifications can be used. There is nothing to discuss here.
Now I don't see a problem in separating the 2. Many articles separate the 2 things, because they have different climates. There are microclimates and the topography of Spain means that the country has enormous climatic diversity. South of Valencia, the climate becomes Mediterranean precisely because of the topography and then further south near Alicante, it becomes semi-arid again. This occurs in several areas of Spain (and in other countries with great climatic diversity where topography is a factor that makes a difference). Weather stations in the city are designed to study the city's climate, not exactly that specific area of ​​the city.
I don't know what the problem is and why there is so much confusion just to separate the city of Valencia with its metropolitan area. The classification would only be (and does not mean that it will be) changed in the next 10 years, it is not changed every year. Farell37 (talk) 21:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TravelerFromEuropeanUnion Alright, forgot it. I got it! Now you have finally touched on a problem which is the other climate classifications. The rest is not a problem, the fact that the weather station is in the city or over there or over here. The city's meteorological station aims to study the climate of the entire city, not exactly that specific area. Now, the only problem may be the other climate classifications due to the Mediterranean and semi-arid transitions. It may cause some confusion in this case.
Either way, this is the only problem I see with separating the 2 things. The city of Valencia is a hot semi-arid, but the airport is already a transition between the cold semi-arid and the hot semi-arid. Other areas of the Valencia metropolitan area are Mediterranean. If we include the airport, then we will change the description to this: "Valencia and its metropolitan area have a transitional climate between Mediterranean (Csa) and hot and cold semi-arid climates." The cold semi-arid is because of the airport Farell37 (talk) 21:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to run the calculation. Published reliable sources have done it for you.
I agree with Traveler that it is ridiculous to sharply distinguish between tiny differences. That could put us in the situation of changing the category if the area had an unusually wet or dry year. We don't want "It's ___ – oh, oops, they got an extra 3 mm of rain this year, so we need to change the classification". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Beck, Hylke E.; Zimmermann, Niklaus E.; McVicar, Tim R.; Vergopolan, Noemi; Berg, Alexis; Wood, Eric F. (30 October 2018). "Present and future Köppen-Geiger climate classification maps at 1-km resolution". Scientific Data. 5: 180214. Bibcode:2018NatSD...580214B. doi:10.1038/sdata.2018.214. ISSN 2052-4463. PMC 6207062. PMID 30375988.
  2. ^ "Valores climatológicos normales: Clasificación climática de Köppen". aemet.es. AEMET. Retrieved 23 May 2024.

General confusion in WP between the Valencian Community and the city of Valencia

I've just edited the page because there was a link to a Valencian Community page, instead of one for the city of Valencia, which is the subject of this page. Related to that, I've come to the conclusion that similar problems happen in many other pages, for example persons born in other parts of the Community are categorized as People from Valencia instead of People from the Valencian Community. I really don't have the time to fix that, I'm posting this just in case anybody can do anything about it. Jotamar (talk) 22:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clumsy writing

Lead makes no sense. It is the third-most populated municipality in the country, with 807,693 inhabitants within the administrative boundaries of the commune (commune? so an oddball way to say municipality? (2023) and 1,582,387 inhabitants (2021) within the metropolis (so no longer taking about municipalities here?)

Basically lead section opens with something like Valencia is the 3th most populated municipality in Spain, with 807,693 inhabitants in the municipality (but let's give municipality a different obscure name here to confuse readers) and 1,582,387 inhabitants in something that is not a municipality: awkward writing. Separating concepts is due to stay accurate. That's why a maintenance template {{Awkward}} was inserted there. On a different note and needless to say, the article is primarily about the municipality. Editor TravelerFromEuropeanUnion claims about finding a compromise. I think that staying accurate without removing information was a fine compromise (I would just simply remove information about the population of a moot metropolis [sic] that is not the central topic of the article, but this one [es] from the lead), but such editor disagrees. Mentioning that Valencia is both the third most populated municipality and the third-most populated urban area or metropolitan area in the country (provided that there are sources about any of those claims) is another possible compromise.--Asqueladd (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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