Talk:Seanad career of Mary Robinson/GA1

• Introduce Seanad Éireann in the sentence where it first appears, to help readers who might not be familiar with the term.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link Irish Bar (Bar of Ireland); Labour Party (Labour Party (Ireland)); Catholic Church (Catholic Church in Ireland); contraception; divorce; juries (jury).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• work as a lawyer does not link where you might expect it to – I would amend the text so that it reads ‘Her legal career and academic work continued’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• independent senator – it could perhaps be made clearer (in a separate note?) that an Irish senator sits in the Seanad Éireann.

 Not done I don't think it's necessary to specify that a senator sits in the senate, particularly when I have now specified that Seanad Éireann is the Irish senate.Xx78900 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More comments on the main article to follow. I will cross out any comments that I think have been addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, I had a bit of time tonight so I was able to make a few changes per your review thus far. I have also removed the italics from the word "Seanad" throughout the article, per the recommendation left by the person reviewing Legal career of Mary Robinson, comments here. Xx78900 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider splitting parts of this section into subsections, as a way of making the text more accessible.

 Half done Open to feedback on the actual subheading titles!Xx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks OK. AM

• The paragraph on contraception should be split to make it more readable, and given an appropriate title within the section (see my first comment).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• There's no need to put illegitimate children within quotation marks.

 Not done I disagree: This is a term that was previously used legally but is now outdated and considered offensive.

Understood. AM

• within the church - ‘within the Church’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link Seanad Éireann in the caption.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not doneI tried to do so, but inserting the link broke the image and it appeared as the link of source input. Not sure how to fix it.

Now sorted. AM

• a total of sixty – consider amending to ‘a total of 60’ (see MOS:NUMERAL).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• she wrote an article for The Irish Times – move the link to the top of the section.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link Northern Ireland, contraception; Belfast; customs; adoption, out of wedlock (Legitimacy (family law)), counsel.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• would later, in 1985, lead to controversy – ‘led to controversy in 1985’ is imo more suitable here.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Also in 1970 she married - ‘In 1970 Robinson married’.

 RemovedXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• with whom she had had a relationship since they were law students and who was then practising as a solicitor (and the rest of the paragraph) - this level of detail isn't needed in an encyclopaedia article.

 RemovedXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Avoid to the floor (see MOS:IDIOM) unless it is linked to Floor (legislative).

 Done (linked)Xx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Avoid TD (use ‘Teachta Dála’, linked).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Could the Irish Theological Association be red-linked?

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link pluralist (selecting the correct link from Pluralism).

 Done (I chose Cultural pluralism)Xx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• called by then-Taoiseach Jack Lynch sounds clumsy, consider amending it to something like ‘called by the Taoiseach, Jack Lynch’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This date was significant as the legal voting age had recently been lowered from 21 to 18, but the updated electoral register would not come in to effect until April. - amend to something like ‘two months before lowering of the legal voting age from 21 to 18 came into effect’?

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• they effectively – ‘it effectively’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The personal details regarding Robinson’s family (e.g. those that appear in the last paragraph of this section should be removed), as they are not relevant to the topic.

 Half done I removed the bit about her daughter, but not her mothers death - I believe that in the source it might mention that it had an impact on her campaign, I will double check on Monday and adjust then.Xx78900 (talk) 09:24, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. AM

More to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• It’s not clear to me why the last paragraph is included in such detail. That Robinson was narrowly re-elected to the Seanad is all that matters, surely.

 DoneYou're right. I was writing this article and that of Robinson's legal career at the same time so some things got muddled. Shortened now.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This long section could do with being split into subsections.

 Half done I've added subsection, though now the bit about FLACs is just floating under The right of women to sit on juries - thoughts?Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• the Ireland entered – ‘Ireland entered’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• A result of this membership were that two key goals of Robinson were met – ‘Two key goals of Robinson were thus met’ is more concise.

 Done

• as conditions of – ‘as a condition of’.

 Not done Is this correct? I'm talking about two things, both of which were conditions of entry.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now not sure, so let's assume you are right. AM

• That same year, Robinson first served on the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities, which she remained a member of until her retirement from the Seanad. Also in 1973, Robinson - 'In 1973 Robinson first served on the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities—which she remained a member of until her retirement from the Seanad—and she’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link called to the bar of England and Wales (Call to the bar); Fine Gael (moved from later in the section); Oireachtas; Conor Cruise O'Brien; penal reform.

 Half done All of the above linked, though I didn't include "of England and Wales" in the call to the bar link.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Robinson again introduced – ‘she again introduced’ sounds better imo.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Put a comma after defeated in a vote to improve the prose.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• This led to Robinson - There’s a lot going on here, I would replace this with the thing being referred to, to help readers know what is being being referred to.

 Done

• widely publicised – is too vague imo.

I would contend that if it wasn't widely publicised it wouldn't really be worth mentioning - and axiomatic to such a phrase it would be unwieldy to list everywhere it was publicised.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for nor being clearer, I meant that the context of being "widely publicised" needs to be more specific, perhaps 'widely publicised throughout Ireland'? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• political traction – I’m not clear what this actually means.

She was hoping that as a result of their being a more liberal party in government, she as a liberal politician, would be able to further promote her own political agenda.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this, but other readers might also benefit from the text being rephrased (or expanded?) to help with this phrase, which is slightly idiomatic. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:03, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Also in 1974, Robinson sought to address the issue of - ‘In 1974, Robinson sought again to address the issue of’?

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Then-senator Michael D. Higgins participated in the debate - Then-senator seems redundant, as only serving senators could take part in the debate.

Yes, but Michael D. Higgins is best known for, like Robinson, later being elected president of Ireland (a role he still occupies). I think for future readers who may not have the exact dates in their head about when each was a senator/president and may not be aware that the president couldn't weigh in on parliamentary debate, it could be useful to specify. I'm open to changing the wording though, or if you feel passionately that it is inappropriate, removing it entirely.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I don't think you can assume that readers are aware who the president of Ireland currently is. I would consider replacing Then-senator Michael D. Higgins participated in the debate, arguing with 'Senator Michael D. Higgins, who participated in the debate, argued'. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:09, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 14:02, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The debate was eventually adjourned, but no further debate ever followed - ‘The debate was abandoned’?

Well, adjournment implies debate will be returned to. I suppose it was effectively abandoned, but on a technicality it wasn't. That said, I understand that sometimes such nuance is best left to source material. What do you think?Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can leave it as it is. AM

• I think a new paragraph could be made after Robinson had more success.

 Done, but after having added subheadings, are the pargraphs I've split a bit short? Let me know.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comma after seeking to adopt.

 Done

• sat on a jury - ‘sat on a Republic of Ireland jury’?

 Done, I said "sat on a jury in Ireland". Ireland is used throughout the article to refer to the nation as opposed to the island, with Republic of Ireland only being mentioned in a quote from Robinson. I can change this if you like? Though I personally feel it unnecessary, given that Northern Ireland is specifically mentioned where relevant.Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• permitted every Irish citizen – ‘gave every Irish citizen’.

 Done, though I said "granted" instead of "gave".Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comma after and be accepted.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Consider deleting the vague-sounding for quite some time.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• (or PLP) – ‘(PLP)’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More comments to follow, the article is a lot better than this rather alarmingly long list of issues to be addressed might imply. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:41, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is, in fairness, also a rather long article! I really appreciate the thoroughness of your review, I think it's helped the page greatly!Xx78900 (talk) 22:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Starting in 1977, and lasting until 1987 - consider putting this at the end of the sentence and simplifying it to ‘from 1977 to 1987’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The second paragraph could do with some copy editing—and as there is too much text for a single paragraph. Much of the text consists of details about events that Robinson was not directly involved in, and at least one sentence is too long. Examples - Among the most prominent issues tackled by Robinson in her third term as a senator - ‘In her third term as a senator, Robinson’; Though officials within the Labour Party were largely sympathetic to Robinson's cause, they – ‘The Labour Party was sympathetic’; first the subject of a dig by archaeologists – first excavated’ (linked to Archaeological excavation).

 Done I added a paragraph break and subheadings- do they seem appropriate?Xx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A definite improvement (I've copy edited and added a few links as well, please comment if you want). Amitchell125 (talk) 16:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The caption, whist still giving the significance of the image, needs to be shorter (see MOS:CAPSUCCINCT).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link barrier contraception (Birth_control#Barrier).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• who had need to use; to get a prescription for same - the text needs to be copy edited here.

 Half done I've made changes, do you think they're appropriate?

I've tweaked it a bit, let me know if you're not happy. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• she was called to the Inner Bar – 'Robinson was called to the Inner Bar’.

 Done

• and was far more conservative – are you meaning to imply here that Haughey was conservative?

As a member of establishment, and particularly in comparison with Robinson, it would be difficult to see him as otherwise, but no, what I am meaning to imply is that the bill Haughey put forward was more conservative than the one Robinson had attempted to pass in the first, ie it had restrictions on the sale of contraceptives that were absent in Robinson's bill.Xx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. AM

• (who would later become a Supreme Court judge) is off topic and should be edited out.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• though nothing else would materialise – why though?

I guess because I think the text implies that the Seanad would discuss the draft, but it turned out that they didn't. It can be removed though, I'm not too fussy.Xx78900 (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. AM

• on the sixth count – it’s not clear what this means to readers perhaps unfamiliar with Irish election procedures. Is there a suitable link?

I'm not sure how to change it, and amn't sure whether you are familiar with Irish election procedures so forgive me explaining them here in asking your advice. In Ireland we use a system of government called proportional representation, in which more than one candidate is elected for each constituency, thus allowing for representation that is, as the name implies, more proportionate to the electorate. This is achieved via a single transferable vote, whereby every voter ranks the candidates numerically in their order of preference. If there were 7 candidates, say, in an area where 2 candidates are elected, there are two ways in which the 2 who get elected are chosen. Either they would meet a minimum threshold of first preference votes, or, if that threshold isn't reached by any of the 7 candidates, the candidate with the least amount of votes are eliminated, and their votes are redistributed to the voters' second preferences on the ballot, and so on and so on until the threshold is reached. So, if someone is elected on the sixth count, it means that five candidates had been eliminated and their votes redistributed before enough of their second, third, fourth, etc. votes pushed Robinson over the threshold. I'm not sure that I can summarise such information succinctly within the article, and amn't sure if I should link to PR or StV. Any thoughts?Xx78900 (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I understood the system myself, but your explanation was very helpful for me. Perhaps adding a couple of useful links into the article would work, I'm thinking of Single transferable vote and Elections in the Republic of Ireland. These could be placed either somewhere within the text, or in a separate 'See also' section. Thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 05:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done

• The first paragraph has copy editing issues, e.g. which sits for the first time later than the Dáil, was even more so, which makes little sense to me.

 Half done I've attempted a fix. I'm trying to say that the first day that senators assemble is later in the year than the first day the Dáil meets as, after the Dáil has been elected, the Taoiseach makes nominations for the Seanad. It cannot meet until after the government has already been formed.Xx78900 (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link Fianna Fáil; Catherine McGuinness.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Unlink The Irish Times in the second paragraph (duplicated link).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• two-and-a-half hour long – consider replacing with ‘150-minute-long’.

 Not done Why? Personally I think two-and-a-half hour sounds more natural, though I will change it if you strongly feel otherwise.Xx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. AM

• among the most – ‘one of the most’, as there was only only one of them.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link referendum; European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (European Convention on Human Rights).

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• eighth amendment – ‘Eighth amendment’.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• that the ambiguity of the bill - ‘that ambiguities within the bill’ sounds better imo.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• both Spring and the Labour Party generally – either ‘Spring and the Labour Party generally’ or ‘both Spring and the Labour Party’.

 Done, though I do think the former sounds better personally.Xx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I would consider of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher as being excessive, and causing the sentence to be overlong.

Yes I think you're right. Which do you think is better: "with the British Government" or "with Margaret Thatcher's government in Britain"? The second is still long but it adds precision. Not really tied to either one of them.Xx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The former. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:40, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• there should be a comma after preceding the election.

 Not done Are you sure? That makes the sentence run strangely in my head. Again though, if you're certain, no problem.Xx78900 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. AM

More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The first and second paragraphs could be combined, seeing as the first one is so short.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Link table (Table (parliamentary procedure)); compendium.

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Why is humiliating within quotation marks? It looks editorial (see MOS:EDITORIAL).

I did this because it is used in the source and I feel that it is relevant to mention that it was a humiliating experience, but inappropriate for encyclopedias to label something subjective as fact, hence the quotation marks. I would rather remove the word entirely than just the quotations, though I am open to other suggestions.Xx78900 (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It normally works if it is stated who (or which source) said what is in quotes, to ensure readers can see you are not being editorial. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:35, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

O'Sullivan refers to the practice as "rather embarrassing" rather than humiliating, which isn't the same thing. Consider amending which ended the "humiliating" practice to something like 'which ended what the historian Michael O'Sullivan refers to as "the rather embarrassing practice". Amitchell125 (talk) 16:41, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 DoneXx78900 (talk) 19:57, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]