Talk:Kosovo

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The current description of the highways refers to the Macedonian border, but that country is now called Northern Macedonia. 98.51.241.186 (talk) 05:58, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, thank you! Typical Albanian (talk) 18:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove this sentence:

The official conventional long name of the state is Republic of Kosovo, as defined by the Constitution of Kosovo, and is used to represent Kosovo internationally.

and replace it with this one:

The Constitution of Kosovo defines the state's official conventional long name to be Republic of Kosovo.  It is used to represent Kosovo internationally.

The active voice is probably better, and the "and is" element sounds a little ungrammatical. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 01:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Question: why not The official conventional long name, as defined by the Constitution, is Republic of Kosovo? The part about being used to represent Kosovo internationally seems self-evident. M.Bitton (talk) 13:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like your wording better than mine, and I agree with your reasoning. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 04:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Typical Albanian: You're engaging in WP:OR & personal opinion rather than following the encyclopedia's guideline of neutrality with your edit here. The Operation Horseshoe article itself states that there is doubt as to whether the plan existed and whether that specific plan was carried out when Albanians were expelled during the Kosovo War.

Besides the German minister Loquai who stated that it was not authentic, I'll add Wolfgram from the European Journal of Communication here:

As to the actual existence of such a plan or its contents, no credible evidence has yet surfaced, although the German Defense Ministry claimed on 19 April 1999 to have delivered such evidence to chief prosecutor Louise Arbour in the Hague. None of this material has seen the light of day at the trial, and the entire Operation Horseshoe story failed to materialize in the prosecution’s case against Milošević, although such evidence, if it existed, should have been critical to their case.

And there are other RS/scholars who doubt it. For example, Professor Raju G. C. Thomas of Marquette University who writes in Yugoslavia Unraveled: Sovereignty, Self-determination, Intervention that: "[the political scientist] Kelly Greenhill points out in her chapter in this book, there is no evidence that such a "Horseshoe Plan" existed." (p.17); "Daalder and O'Hanlon claim that Milosevic set out to put Operation Horseshoe into effect in November 1998 and that the coordinated attack (was to) involve a broad swath of territory, in the shape of a horseshoe, moving from the northeast down to the west and back to the southeast of Kosovo... However this depiction of Serb intentions is wholly at odds with the actual pattern of outflows during the crisis.." (p.228)

Therefore, at best we can say the fleeing and expulsion was an alleged ethnic cleansing plan codenamed "Operation Horseshoe" but that this has been questioned. However, attributing the expulsions to Operation Horseshoe is unnecessary altogether when it is sufficient to simply describe the events plainly as they were. --Griboski (talk) 19:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back: The lead sentence was established as a result of a March 2023 RFC: Talk:Kosovo/Archive_33#RFC.

You state the RFC's scope only extended to the use of the word country. But this is not true.

As can be seen from the discussion, the initiator proposed: "Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition."

The closer stated: "Based on all of this, the consensus seems to be that the opening sentence of the article should read as laid out in the proposal "Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition."

That is the consensus and stable version that's been there ever since. If you want to change it, you should seek consensus and/or file an RFC. Unilaterally removing it is unproductive.--Griboski (talk) 21:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a blatant misrepresentation... In context it is clearly only provided as an example "Should the lead sentence of this article on Kosovo describe Kosovo using the specific word "country"? For example: Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition. ?" The RfC is about a specific word and nothing else. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The results of the RFC are plainly obvious, regardless of how you want to twist it. I'm just letting you know that you need a new consensus to override the existing one. --Griboski (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you are denying the existance of the words "For example" or are you disputing their meaning? To most the meaning of "For example" is obvious, but if you think it isn't then explain. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you ignoring the closer's conclusion and the consensus/stable version stemming from the RFC result that's been there for the past 14 months?

Kosovo's recognition has been an important aspect since its declaration of independence. Major countries like Brazil, China, Greece, India and Russia do not recognize it. It is reasonable to note this status in the lead, as it always has been in some form. Perhaps it should be tweaked, but this should be done via consensus building.

This article is a controversial topic with divergent views. Outright removal without consensus won't get you what you want. --Griboski (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not ignoring anything, a consenus/conclusion only exists in its given context... It can't be disconnected from that context. Unless I'm missing something nobody is proposing that we don't cover it in the lead, what has been challenged is covering it in the very first sentence. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:49, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC close literally states Based on all of this, the consensus seems to be that the opening sentence of the article should read as laid out in the proposal "Kosovo, officially the Republic of Kosovo, is a country in Southeast Europe with partial diplomatic recognition." Khirurg (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is laid out in the proposal is an example... The only part of the sentence in question was the word "country" so there is no way to interpret the close as being a consensus on the entire sentence. The close literally could not be what you say it is, the closer did not have that power in this context (they can't make a supervote and only three editors of thirty eight editors even mentioned the "partial diplomatic recognition" part). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great point. The way the RfC was formulated did not state explicitly that the opening sentence should include "partial diplomatic recognition". Botushali (talk) 02:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to the RFC, the opening sentence was "Kosovo... is a landlocked partially recognised state in Southeast Europe".[3] The RFC replaced the word "state" with "country" and the part about partial diplomatic recognition was shifted, according to the initiator's example. A part that by default had been there for some time. So even if you are right, there's no agreement to remove that part completely as you did. --Griboski (talk) 03:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not how it works... Its those who want to keep it who need to get consensus to do so. Again I did not remove it completely, it is still noted in the lead of the post-edit version. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it suffices to add a footnote at the end of the sentence to mention that some states do not formally/diplomatically recognize kosovo. recognition is fleshed out in more detail further below Aferditaa (talk) 04:28, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes are clunky and the RfC close was quite explicit. Khirurg (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i'm not sure that your opinion about footnotes being 'clunky' - despite the fact that it is literally a letter as opposed to a number (in the case of a citation) - should be a determining factor here. i think this seems like a perfect place to put a footnote, following wikipedia guidelines Aferditaa (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've already been over the RfC close, in context it explicitly does not do that... The close can not exceed the discussion in scope, opinion, or detail and this one does not do that barring an assumption of bad faith on the part of the closer (if they did what you say then they supervoted, which they're not allowed to do... So either you're wrong or you're wrong...). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]