User talk:FactOrOpinion

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I just made an edit on a page and forgot to describe the edit before publishing it. I don't see how to add the description about what I did subsequent to publishing. Thanks. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! Unfortunately, you cannot add or change the edit summary once you publish your changes - see Help:Edit summary#Fixing. To prevent that from happening again, you can go to your Preferences and check "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary (or the default undo summary)". Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) You can't add an edit summary to a prior edit. There are two things you can do; you can make a "dummy edit", or in other words an inconsequential change(like removing a space) and add your edit summary to that edit, like this: "Dummy edit: fixed spelling on prior edit". Or, you can post to the article talk page to describe your edit. 331dot (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to both of you for taking time to answer my question! FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To FactOrOpinion - I didn't want to clutter the WP article's talk page, so I decided to address your questions and comments on your talk page.  
Regarding your question, you asked, "I'd like to add the main Court Listener link for U.S. v. Flynn to Flynn's page, but I'm not sure where. My sense is that the External Links section should be for biographic info about Flynn, not about the case. Is that right? I'd add it to the Plea Bargain section but can't figure out what to write."

I don't really know how to answer that because I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. I've only been on WP for less than 2 months so my guess is that you know much more about how WP operates than I do.  That said, because I still don't know the ropes here, so whenever I have a question that pertains to a specific WP article, I go to that WP article's talk page and at the very top right hand side, click on "new section" and ask my question.  That way, my questions do not clutter up or detract from "sections" that other WP editors have initiated.

Regarding your comments: The 2/21/2018 Protective Order is a court order governing the "Discovery" process after Flynn pleaded guilty in December 2017. There are several ways we know that the 2/21/2018 Protective Order included the "FBI notes" (a.k.a. FBI 302s) and that Flynn, Flynn's lawyers and the court were in possession of them since 2018:
1. In 2018 court filings, Flynn's lawyers quote from those very same FBI notes
2. In December 2018 the Judge rejected Flynn's lawyers description of those FBI notes.
3. In 2019 court filings, Flynn's lawyers continue to quotes from those very same FBI notes.
4. In December 2019 the Judge, once again, rejected Flynn's lawyers description of those FBI notes.In short, the  2/21/2018 Protective Order included all information, including but not limited to FBI notes that the prosecutors have on the defendant (Flynn).

Like I said on the talk page, "the content of the FBI notes have been in the general public since 2018, RS has been reporting about them via Flynn's case since 2018, and this WP article has been reporting on them since 2018 as well. On top of that, the 'trap' notion has also been discussed in RS and this WP article since 2018. So, there is literally nothing new about the FBI notes or the notion of 'trap.'While Bill Barr's release of the physical copies of the FBI notes are the only thing "new" to the general public, the content of them is not new to the general public, and the physical copies are not new to Flynn, Flynn's lawyers, or the Federal Court.  

So, on Mike Flynn, we have a guy who lied to the FBI about national security issues, who then pleaded guilty in court two times to lying to the FBI over national security issues, and who now says he (Flynn) lied, while under oath, to the court both times he pleaded guilty so he wants to withdraw his guilty plea.  By the way, if Flynn is now admitting he lied to the court, two times, then does that mean Flynn is admitting he committed perjury? To quote Judge Sullivan on Flynn lying to the FBI about national security issues, "a high-ranking government official who had betrayed the government’s trust by lying.  Mr. Flynn deceived not only F.B.I. agents, but also senior White House officials, who then repeated his lies to the American public. This is a very serious offense. This case is in a category by itself.”

On Bill Barr: RS report that Bill Barr's actions in Flynn, Mueller, and Ukraine is Bill Barr trying to cast doubt on the FBI's legitimate investigation of Russia working with or coordinating with Trump's 2016 campaign to undermine 2016 US elections. [1] [2] [3] To quote another Judge, [4] "Barr’s handling of the report by the special counsel, Robert Mueller, saying that Mr. Barr put forward a “distorted” and “misleading” account of its findings and lacked credibility on the topic.  Mr. Barr could not be trusted, Judge Reggie B. Walton said, citing “inconsistencies” between the attorney general’s statements about the report when it was secret and its actual contents that turned out to be more damaging to President Trump. Mr. Barr’s “lack of candor” called into question his “credibility and, in turn, the department’s” assurances to the court."
Sadly, several RS report that Bill Barr acts as though the taxpayers pay him to be Trump's personal attorney [5] [6] [7] [8] - I sure hope Bill Barr's not doing that; if true, that would be a travesty of justice that would be of concern all Americans. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:07, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi BetsyRMadison, thanks for your note. I’m going to reply here rather than on your talk page because it’s easier to view all of the exchange that way. If you prefer that I respond on your talk page, just let me know.

Re: my question, although you created your account more recently than me, you’ve actually posted more to WP than I have, so I doubt I know more about how WP operates than you do. Certainly you seem more familiar with the codes used for formatting; prior to commenting on the Flynn talk page, I’d only ever used the visual editor. Thanks for the suggestion re: creating a new Talk section; I’ll either do that or post my question to some other place where I can get help, like the Teahouse (but I should probably do some searching first to see if I can find an already existing answer that addresses my question). I’d already been wondering if U.S. v. Flynn should have its own page, and if a page is created for the case, that resolves my question. But I haven’t ever created a page from scratch, and I’m somewhat inclined to wait a bit and see how the appellate court rules on the mandamus request and how Sullivan rules (if allowed) on the Motion to Dismiss, as those will determine whether the cases ends soon with charges being dismissed. If they’re dismissed, then a separate page might not be warranted; otherwise, it probably is warranted.

IANAL, but as best I understand, the Protective Order applies to all discovery materials provided by the government to Flynn’s legal team, regardless of when they were turned over. For the materials that the government turned over, they didn’t do it on a single date, but they turned over over 22K pages of documents (let’s call that “Group A”). Flynn’s team submitted motions to compel production of additional Brady material in 2019, and the Government opposed, saying that it had already satisfied its Brady obligations, and the motions to compel additional Brady production were denied by Sullivan in a long ruling on 12/16/2019. Some or all of the requested material was nonetheless turned over by the DOJ in April (let’s call that “Group B”). When you refer to quotes from and descriptions of “those very same FBI notes,” I don’t know whether you referring to Group A or Group B or both. It sounds like you’re saying that Group B is a subset of Group A, and the Group B materials were simply made public in 2020. But unless the earlier quotes were from Group B, it’s not clear to me that Group B really is a subset of Group A. I’m not questioning that Flynn’s legal team quoted from and described FBI notes in 2018; they did. I’m just saying that quoting from / describing notes from Group A doesn’t imply that they also possessed the Group B material unless the quotes are clearly from Group B. The only way for me to resolve that would be to read their 2018 filings and compare quotes in those to the Group B materials, and right now, I don’t care enough to invest the time. For example, I did a quoted Google query on “What’s our goal? Truth/Admission” (a partial quote from Priestap, ““What’s our goal? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?”) and date-limited the search to before April, 2020, and there are hardly any results, and the couple that I looked at are simply backdated pages, not results that truly precede 4/2020.

Re: “If Flynn is now admitting he lied to the court, two times, then does that mean Flynn is admitting he committed perjury?,” my understanding is that it’s technically perjury but that many lawyers would argue against it being charged as perjury, since innocent people do sometimes plead guilty. On the other hand, if Flynn lied in his Jan. 2020 personal declaration, which was made under penalty of perjury, or if he lied to the court about something else, that’s more likely to lead to a perjury charge.

As for Barr, unfortunately, I’m inclined to agree with those who characterize his actions as if he were Trump’s personal lawyer. FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In both 2018 & 2019 Flynn's lawyers quote from the very same FBI notes that Bill Barr released to the public in April 2020. Yes, in 2018 Flynn's lawyer's were in possession of those FBI notes which is how they were able to quote them in 2018. In your scenario the FBI notes would be part of Group A. The physical copies Barr released in April 2020 include emails from FBI agents, Lisa Page & Peter Stzrok, discussing Flynn - here's a link to a 2018 Politico article discussing the exact same emails between the same two FBI agents [9]. Here's a few 2018 links where Flynn/Trump's people start a notion of "perjury trap" [10] [11].

There is only one person who caused & who is to blame for Mike Flynn to lie to the FBI over serious national security issued: Mike Flynn. Flynn pleaded guilty to willfully & knowingly lying to the FBI. BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:06, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison, re: "In both 2018 & 2019 Flynn's lawyers quote from the very same FBI notes that Bill Barr released to the public in April 2020," it's hard for me to check this for myself without knowing the dates you're referring to, which would let me look up the briefs and/or court transcripts to check the quotes. And even if I assume that that's true, if X pages of notes were released in April 2020 (and I haven't gone back to check what X is), unless we have quotes from each of the X pages or an explicit statement that all X pages were previously provided to Flynn's counsel, their having previously quoted from some of April 2020 release pages wouldn't imply that all X pages were given to them; it could instead be that Group B intersects with Group A but also includes some material not in Group A. The handwritten notes attributed to Priestap that I quoted from earlier seem like an example of something that wasn't previously given to Flynn's legal team. I don't have a Post subscription and don't want to use my limited monthly views for this. I did look at the Politico article, but it just makes a general reference to the Strzok/Page emails without quoting any (and again, even if they quoted from some, the question would be whether the specific emails they quoted from were also in the April 2020 release, so I'd still need to check).

I know that Flynn twice pleaded guilty to willfully & knowingly lying to the FBI, and based on the evidence I've read to date, I believe that he is guilty. But I also recognize that innocent people are sometimes railroaded / sometimes get bad counsel / sometimes plead guilty when they aren't, and in general I try to be willing to change my mind when that's warranted. Right now, I think the April 2020 public release is mostly about a public relations effort by Barr, trying to create cover for the Motion to Dismiss (which doesn't present a good argument in my view) and/or for Trump to later pardon Flynn. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:12, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. BetsyRMadison, I just came across this appendix to Judge Sullivan's 12/16/19 ruling about the motion for additional Brady material: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6234142/144/1/united-states-v-flynn/ It seems like a good summary of what was previously provided, even though it doesn't specify the dates when they were provided. Some of the entries (e.g., #6) substantiate your claim about the Strzok-Page emails, but I'm less clear about the handwritten notes, and "already provided" doesn't guarantee that they provided 100% of relevant documents that exist, only (presumably) 100% of the relevant documents they'd found to date (so if there were some relevant documents that were lost somewhere or where they initially reviewed them and judged them to be "not relevant," they could have either found them later or reevaluated them later; it's possible that (some of) the April 2020 materials fall in that category).

To FactOrOpinion - Both 2018 & 2019 information are in the WP article under "Delayed Sentencing" - which again - is why I asked the questions I did.  Honestly you don't need to reinvent the wheel, just read the WP article.  You may also want to read the talk page archives to see if that gives you more information. WP editors only include what RS report.

If you want to read the briefs for your own information I can get them to you tomorrow, but I don't think you'd be able to use them in the WP article because I think that's what is considered "independent research" or something like that. Anyway, if you read the briefs & want to include something you find, you'd probably have to find a RS that discusses the part of the brief you want to discuss in the article. I'll send you those briefs tomorrow but in the meantime, read the WP article & the talk page archives. BetsyRMadison (talk) 01:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS FactOrOpinion - if you put your computer in incognito mode, you can read the WaPo articles free. Also, if you search "2018 Flynn perjury trap" you'll find a lot of 2018 RS articles on that & do the same for 2019. My point is the idea that "perjury trap" is a brand new or only 6 month old idea is patently false; in fact, it's a lie. Like I keep saying, since 2018 the notion of perjury trap has been discussed within the WP article. Finally, SPECIFICO has made brilliant points on the NPOV, DUE issues as well. SPECIFICO is a very welcoming, fantastic, and hardworking editor who can explain any question you have. BetsyRMadison (talk) 02:49, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PPS FactOrOpinion - I was just reminded of another "allegedly new" topic swirling around the "allegedly new" FBI notes and that is: Mike Flynn Jr. In 2017, several RS reported that Mike Flynn & Flynn's lawyers were negotiating with Mueller to try to get Mike Flynn Jr out of legal trouble [12] [13] [14] [15] Seems at some point, the Flynn family thought it was a good idea to make money off foreign governments and hide their activities from US government. The only reason I'm telling you that is I don't want you to fall for any 'oh look this topic is new' when it's not new at all. BetsyRMadison (talk) 03:22, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison, I did read the WP page, but don't see info in the Delayed Sentencing section that allows me to (dis)confirm that all of the April 2020 materials were provided to Flynn's counsel previously. Re: whether the court materials (briefs, opinions, ...) are RSs, I assume that it depends on how they're used. Certainly quoting from these should be entirely legit. If anything, a primary source is more reliable for a quote than a secondary source like a news article (even one published by a RS), and there are plenty of citations from court docs in WP pages on legal cases. I was already aware that the idea of a perjury trap isn't new and that the SCO discussed Flynn's son with Flynn in 2017 (the idea that Flynn was coerced into a guilty plea to save his son has been around for years and is already touched on in the WP), but the FBI didn't sign any guarantee about that, and suggesting that they'd charge Flynn Jr. also isn't out of bounds given Jr's actual work for Flynn and the possible FARA violations. Thanks for the heads up though. FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FactOrOpinion - It may be more helpful for me if you can you tell me exactly what relevant FBI notes that Bill Barr released that you think are missing from the RS reporting within the WP article? Also, if you do think something relevant is missing, why do you think it is relevant & what do you think makes it relevant? I ask those two questions because the content of the FBI notes are within the WP article (starting in the 3rd paragraph) so I think if you could please answer those questions it would be helpful for me to understand what you're not seeing.

Links I told you I'd get you:

1) Link: 12/11/2018 to Flynn's lawyer's sentencing memo filed with the court [16] where they quote from the 1/24/2017 FBI notes (from the same 1/24/2017 notes Barr released) that the prosecutor gave them as per the 2/21/2018 Protective Order. Things to notice: Footnote 20: acknowledges that Flynn & Flynn's lawyers had possession of the FBI notes before they wrote their 12/11/2018 Sentencing Memo pursuant to 2/21/2018 Protective Order (don't be alarmed that you can't find the UNredacted version in the court docs because they had not been released to the public yet). Also notice: Footnote 20 also confirms that Flynn's lawyers only quoted from "selected" parts of the FBI notes - but they clearly confirm they had possession of those FBI notes prior to 12/11/2018. A few excerpts from 12/11/2018 Sentencing Memo:

• Footnote (20) Certain information summarized or quoted in this Memorandum derives from documents furnished to Defendant’s counsel pursuant to the Protective Order, United States v. Flynn, 17 CR232 (D.D.C. Feb. 21, 2018) (Doc. 22). Undersigned counsel conferred with the Government, which represented that disclosing the selected information does not constitute a violation of the Protective Order.<b
• Footnote (21) Memorandum dated Jan. 24, 2017(23) FD-302 dated Aug. 22, 2017, at 3
• In the Sentencing Memo, Flynn's lawyers brag about how willing Flynn was to cooperate and write, "Flynn has accepted responsibility for his conduct. As the Government has made clear, his cooperation was not grudging or delayed. Rather, it preceded his guilty plea or any threatened indictment and began very shortly after he was first contacted for assistance by the Special Counsel’s Office." (*this is very important because 2 years later (12/2019) Flynn's new lawyer filed a motion with the court claiming that that constituted a Brady violation -- but naturally the judge called bs on that and ruled against that motion.)

2) Link: 12/14/2018 Prosecutor's response to Flynn's lawyer's sentencing memo [17]

3) Link: December 2019 Court ruling rejecting Flynn's new lawyer's claim of 'perjury trap' [18]

4) Link: NYT article discussing the Dec. 2019 Court ruling [19] which further discusses additional content of the FBI notes that Bill Barr released to the public four months later. [20]

There are many court filed documents in the Flynn case, I've only linked to very few of them.

I know you are working in good faith, as am I. With that disclaimer: I feel like much of this is a chase of a red-herring. In 2018 Flynn's lawyers make clear they had possession of the 1/27/2017 FBI notes (that Bill Barr released to the public). Since 2018 this WP article discusses the "content" of those FBI notes reported by RS. But, some people (not accusing you) want to chase the red-herring. What is the red-herring? The red-herring is: 'Gee, since Flynn's lawyers only quoted from "selected" parts of the 1/24/2017 FBI notes, then prove to me that they had the notes.' And that brings us to the red-herrings little brother: 'the 1/24/2017 FBI internal discussions of who, what, where, why & how to interview Flynn.' This will come as no shock, prosecutors & law enforcement have those internal discussions all day, every day in this country when they're about to interview a suspect -- especially a suspect (Flynn) involved in U.S. counterintelligence investigations. Similarly, defense lawyers also make the same types of notes on: who, what, where, when, & how to put forward a strategy against the prosecution. Usually those notes are not made public for obvious legal reasons. My point: no matter who, what, where, when, & why questions were deliberated by prosecutors prior to interviewing Flynn on 1/24/2017, there is only one person who chose to illegally, willfully and knowingly lie to the FBI and that one person is: Mike Flynn - who pleaded guilty two times to lying to the FBI & Flynn admitted he knew lying to the FBI is a crime before he did it.

And who released red-herring & red-herring's little brother? Well, Bill Barr did. hmmmm....

Not to belabor this, but I personally think it's absurd to think that Flynn's lawyers would have recited every single word within the 1/24/2017 FBI notes and therefore, I think it's absurd to chase red-herring & red-herring's little brother.

All herring's aside, the bottom line is: since 2018 the RfC has been met. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:16, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison, this exchange arose out of a claim you made on the Talk page that "since February 2018 those very same FBI notes have been in the possession of Michael Flynn, Flynn's lawyers, and the Federal Court." It's certainly possible that that's true. But I distinguish between knowledge (warranted true belief) and beliefs that might be true but are less certain. We know that *many* FBI notes "have been in the possession of Michael Flynn, Flynn's lawyers, and the Federal Court" since Feb. of 2018. I'm simply not certain that all of the notes released in April 2020 fall in that category. For example, I haven't found evidence that the handwritten notes attributed to Priestap had previously been handed over. To be clear: I'm also not convinced that they needed to be handed over, as I don't find them exculpatory, despite Sidney Powell's and others' efforts to portray them that way. It's not clear to me that it's important for us to resolve whether all of the notes released in April 2020 have been in the possession of Flynn, his lawyers and the court since Feb. 2018, and it probably isn't worth the time it would take to totally resolve it. And before I forget, thanks for the links you provided, which make it easier for me to explore a bit further myself. FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To FactOrOpinion - Firstly: you unwittingly misrepresented a legal filing to the court in your comment here [21] so please scratch out your error and please be more careful in the future.

To be specific: you gave a partial quote from a legal brief and then unwittingly misrepresented it. Your partial quote: "In the Motion to Dismiss, the government asserted that “[the] investigation … seems to have been undertaken only to elicit those very false statements and thereby criminalize Mr. Flynn" Not only did you completely misrepresent the quote itself and its meaning in that paragraph, you then incorrectly claim that "The DOJ did imply a "false statements trap""

That is not true -- not even close to being legally true

1) The context of that quote has zero (0) to do with any notion of perjury trap or false statement trap.
2) The context of that quote had to do with the "merit" of the case and whether Flynn's lie is "material" to the counterintelligence investigation. The merit & whether of Flynn's lies were "material" to the FBI were established as early as 2017 when Mike Flynn pleaded guilty.
3) You also misrepresented the partial quote itself by putting "[the] investigation..." that close to "...seems to have." By doing that, you misrepresent the entire thing.

• here's what I mean: the words, "the investigation" are in the middle of a sentence on page 15 of the legal brief. The words "seems to have" are on page 17. The words "...an investigation" on page 17 cannot be switched to "[the] investigation" because in that changes the entire meaning of the paragraph with ends up misrepresenting what was actually said. As a result, you misrepresented the entire meaning behind both partial quotes you used.

Secondly: And this has nothing to do with your comment on the talk page. The only way Bill Barr would have a chance to drop charges against a defendant who had already pleaded guilty two time to a very serious crime is by pretending that the original case against Flynn had no merit. Bill Barr knew not to make a claim that Flynn was set-up in a perjury trap or false statement trap for several legal reasons so his best bet, his only bet really, was to claim that even though Flynn lied to the FBI the case against Flynn should be dismissed because he original case had no merit and that's because, "the lie" requires demonstrating that the "lie" is “material” to the underlying investigation.

This is an encyclopedia where accuracy matters, so again, please scratch out your error and be more careful in the future. Thank you BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison, I agree that accuracy matters. I'm trying to be accurate. I disagree with your interpretation. IANAL, and I don't know your legal background. I've worked as a researcher with a lot of transcript data, and I'm pretty sensitive to not distorting meanings when excerpting text. A column by Marty Lederman (a Georgetown law prof. whose opinion I respect) brought that quote from the Motion to my attention. Lederman writes "The new DOJ motion to dismiss the charge against Flynn insinuates that the FBI undertook the interview primarily as a perjury trap," linking his claim to page 17 of the Motion to Dismiss: https://www.justsecurity.org/70431/understanding-the-michael-flynn-case-separating-the-wheat-from-the-chaff-and-the-proper-from-the-improper/#Martyeighteen Whether the lies are material to the CI affects whether the interview could be a false statements trap, as a false statements trap – like a perjury trap – requires that the false statements not be material to the ostensible investigation. I don't agree with the DOJ's argument there; Lederman does a good job laying out why not in section 17 of that column. The only words I omitted from the quote were "that—as explained above—," and I disagree that changing "an" to "the" changes the meaning, as both occurences of "investigation" refer to the FBI's CI investigation of Flynn. But it's also easy enough to place "the" outside the quote rather than have it brackets inside the quote. The DOJ didn't explicitly claim a false statements trap, but I agree with Lederman that they suggest one. If I need to edit something, I can certainly soften "imply" to "hint," "insinuate," "suggest," ... Or I can leave it as is, and you can simply say there that you disagree with my interpretation and with Lederman's. FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To FactOrOpinion - You're wrong. You are 100% legally wrong. As a matter of fact, the lawyer, John Gleeson, that Judge Sullivan appointed to file an Amicus Curiae brief with the court [22] completely disagrees with your misinterpretation. You need to start using RS and avoid unreliable sources. I know you're working in good faith, but you are not a lawyer and you have no idea what you're talking about. Be more careful and scratch out the errors in your comment. BetsyRMadison (talk) 19:45, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS FactOrOpinion - Not only did the prosecutor not file any claim that Flynn is victim to "perjury trap," and not only is there no such thing as a "false statement trap" - Mike Flynn chose to illegally, willfully & knowingly lie - no one trapped him to lie, he chose to lie. And, as I've said before, since 2018 the RfC has been met. BetsyRMadison (talk) 19:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison, it's starting to feel like you're giving me orders, which is counterproductive. Re: the NYT article, you haven't quoted anything substantiating your claim that Gleeson "completely disagrees with [my] misinterpretation [sic]" of the DOJ's text, and I'm not sure what you're referring to. Also, if you really want to get into Gleeson's statements, you'd be better off focusing on the primary source, Gleeson's brief (https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.191592/gov.uscourts.dcd.191592.223.2_3.pdf), instead of the NYT reporting about it. You seem to have badly misinterpreted what I wrote. To be clear: I'm not saying that the DOJ's claim in the Motion to Dismiss is true; in fact, I already told you that I don't agree with it. I agree with Gleeson (and Lederman) that Flynn's lies were material. I'm simply acknowledging that the DOJ said what they said, and that it implies a false statements trap. That Entity A claims X doesn't imply that X is true, and acknowledging that Entity A claimed X isn't suggesting that X is true. I agree that they didn't "file any claim that Flynn is victim to 'perjury trap.'" There's a difference between claiming X and implying X, and I only said that they implied a false statements trap, not that they claimed it. Re: RSs, I am free to read whatever I want and use my reading to inform my own understanding. Just Security is an academic site run out of NYU's Law School, and I find the commentary there accurate and thoughtful, and therefore useful to me. Some of their columns are more like legal op-eds, and I won't use those for a citation on a WP page, but I'm not going to limit my own reading to WP's RSs. And yes, there is such a thing as a "false statements trap." It's analogous to "perjury trap," except that it refers to false statements not made under oath but where it's nonetheless illegal to knowingly make false statements (e.g., in an FBI interview). Many people use "perjury trap" to refer to both. I find it useful to distinguish between them, given that the charge here was false statements, not perjury, and Flynn was never at risk of being charged with perjury for the FBI interview since he wasn't under oath. I can point you to lawyers (e.g., Ken White) who make this distinction. FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FactOrOpinion - I'm sure there is more that you and I agree on than disagree on. And, no matter how much you disagree, this is the fact: The DOJ has never filed anything with the court claiming Flynn is victim of "perjury trap."

It seems you did not bother to read the NYT link I sent or you would have known that Gleeson's court filing was within that article. I read both his brief and NYT report on it, but I do thank you for your very wise advise telling me I'd be "better off" reading only the brief "instead of NYT report on it."

Can you point me to where Gleeson says the 'DOJ filing says "perjury trap"' because I can't find that in his brief. The only thing that I find Gleeson says about "perjury" is when Gleeson talks about whether Flynn should "be held in criminal contempt for committing perjury" in court, then says "Flynn has indeed committed perjury in these proceedings, for which he deserves punishment," then says, "There is also ample evidence that Flynn’s perjury obstructed the administration of justice."

I read Marty's blog post you linked and I notice he admits he got a lot wrong about the FBI interview and that could be because, as Marty admits, "This isn’t my area of expertise—not by a longshot. I’ve never been involved in a counterintelligence investigation nor an FBI witness interview."

IMO for any lawyer, Marty Lederman, to make the "perjury trap" claim about the suspect (Flynn) who was not under oath, is not only legally wrong, but sounds nutty. He might be a good lawyer, but even good lawyers can be very wrong at times. Also, any lawyer making the claim that "perjury" (18 USC 1621) is equal to a "false statement" (18 USC 1001) is not only legally wrong, but sounds nutty. For starters, one is under oath & one isn't. That'd be like saying walking equals running. Nope, not the same.

I find it interesting that you say you agree with both Gleeson & Marty when they both say two completely different things. Gleeson, who has decades experience working with FBI & FBI interviews, says nothing about "perjury trap" whereas Marty, who has zero (0) experience with the FBI says some "perjury trap" nonsense about about a man, Flynn, who was not under oath.

None of this is a slight on you. You strike me as a fine, hardworking person so please don't take it so personal, if/when I disagree with you or if/when I disagree someone you quote. Disagreeing is not a personal thing.

Above you spoke of "counterproductive." If you want to keep chasing Bill Barr's red-herring, I could not care any less - I'm pretty sure that was Barr's goal all along - get people to chase his little red-herring so they stop focusing on the very serious crimes Mike Flynn pleaded guilty to so that he (Barr) can get away with his “gross abuse of prosecutorial power” [23]. But for me, I have more constructive things do than to chase Bill Barr's red-herrings. BetsyRMadison (talk) 02:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BetsyRMadison --

Re: "The DOJ has never filed anything with the court claiming Flynn is victim of 'perjury trap,'" I agree. I never asserted it had. In our discussion here, I said that the filing *implied* (not "claimed") that Flynn is victim of "false statements trap." "Imply" and "claim" aren't synonyms. I originally failed to make that distinction on the Talk page, but did add an edit there as well ("edit: and also the difference between an explicit 'claim,' which doesn't appear, versus an implication").

I did read the NYT article, and I saw the link to Gleeson's brief. I did not say that you should "read[] only the brief 'instead of NYT report on it,'" but that you'd be better off "focusing on" the former. Here again, "reading" and "focusing on" aren't synonyms. One can read both but still focus on one more than the other.

I never claimed or implied that "Gleeson says the 'DOJ filing says "perjury trap,"'" so I don't know why you're asking me to show that. I agree that he didn't say that.

Re: "IMO for any lawyer, Marty Lederman, to make the "perjury trap" claim about the suspect (Flynn) who was not under oath, is not only legally wrong, but sounds nutty," he didn't claim that it was a perjury trap (quite the opposite, he argues that Flynn's lies were material). He did claim that the DOJ insinuated it was a perjury trap in their filing, and he did it in a paragraph where he mentions Barr's claim that the FBI was "trying to ... lay a perjury trap for General Flynn.”. We can distinguish between Lederman's own beliefs about it vs. how he interpreted the DOJ's claims in its motion to dismiss. I agree re: the difference between perjury and false statements, but I also know that the phrase "perjury trap" is widely used and the phrase "false statements trap" is not (per internet search results on quoted queries for the two phrases, where the results for the former are >2 orders of magnitude larger), and it doesn't surprise me that many people use the former phrase when they're talking about the latter, even when they're well aware of the difference.

I don't think I'm chasing Barr's red-herring. I'm familiar with the "Firehose of Falsehood" propaganda model. But for better or worse, he's the A.G., and it's a fact that he said what he said. One can acknowledge that he made the claim without agreeing that his claim is true. Encyclopedias sometimes include discussions of notable false claims/beliefs (e.g., pseudoscience). And of course you don't have to be the one to address Barr's claim.

Last but not least, I appreciate your comment about disagreeing, and as long as people are aiming for civil, sincere, and honest discussion (which I think you are), I'm fine with disagreement (and clearly I disagree with some of your interpretations) FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]