Talk:Association football

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Joseph2302 (talk | contribs) at 07:24, 28 June 2023 (→‎Requested move 26 June 2023: opp). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured articleAssociation football is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 20, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 10, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
October 15, 2007Featured article reviewKept
June 11, 2022Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

Template:Vital article


FIFA vs IFAB

A chance to be aggressively British (and informative and truthful). I think the IFAB vs FIFA relationship has been poorly defined. In effect (My interpretation) football is not governed by FIFA, but by IFAB. FIFA is the executive and judicial branch, with the asterix that the Swiss courts and the international Court of Arbitration for Sports also has something to do with it. But the legislative branch is clearly the IFAB, although then 50% of the IFAB votes are with FIFA. IS this interesting, relevant in the context of this article.

Soccer

It’s called soccer. Please revert title. 2600:4040:2F63:8600:E921:14B4:EABA:9771 (talk) 18:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's called soccer in the USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and a few other English peaking countries where another strong code (or codes) captured the name "football" first. It's football in the other English speaking countries. The official English name is "Association football". HiLo48 (talk) 00:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is not and will never be such thing as a "official English name" of anything 149.154.222.99 (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Read the FAQ mate 2402:800:629C:E333:BC46:3E23:9CB1:DCAD (talk) 15:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article is written in British English, though? Soccer is a seldom used nickname with humorous connotation in British English. Therefore, should the article not reflect that while paying heed to the diversity of names used in all other languages? SteadyJames (talk) 08:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Being written in British English isn't the same as being written from a British perspective. The article's perspective is global, not British. However, it does mean that once introduced, the sport can be called simply "football" in most mentions, unless it ambiguous in a particular sentence. BilCat (talk) 08:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So why can't those differing perspectives be shown, especially as they are so contested in the case of the word soccer. In italy, it's called Calcio; in Hungary it's Labdarúgás. Both also call it Football. Likewise, it would take a strange person to dislike the use of soccer in all circumstance, but the majority of the English speaking world do not recognize it as more than a nickname. Therefore, in those places, it is true that it is a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 09:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, 'nickname' literally means 'alternative name' SteadyJames (talk) 09:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's NOT a nickname. That's been made patently clear to you on your Talk page. I will keep reverting every time you change an article to say that it is. Your editing has become very disruptive. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, if there is a dispute, let's discuss it here with references before it is edited. I'm new to Wikipedia and just getting to grips with the established processes and requirements necessary before edits are made, but it is my understanding that opinion or opinions do not constitute evidence.
I will start with a dictionary definition of the word nickname.
From Merriam Webster Online (accessed 11 February 2023).
Nickname (one of two)
1
a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2
a familiar form of a proper name (as of a person or a city)
Because the accepted and universal full name of the sport in question is Association football, soccer is thus defined by the above as a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 11:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "soccer" is a nickname for association football. "Football" isn't, though, it's just dropping the word "association". – PeeJay 14:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. 'Soccer' is a nickname for Association football; 'football' in this context is both the shortened and the general name for association football and for all codes of football respectively. I will go ahead and make the edits. As I am new to editing on Wikipedia i presume that this course of is ok now that my proposal has been met with support? SteadyJames (talk) 19:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is nonsense. Soccer is used as the official name of the sport in North America, and by many clubs in Australia. This covers a majority of the world's native English speakers. An official name can NEVER be accurately described as a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 01:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Soccer” isn’t the official name for the sport anywhere, it’s just the name the governing bodies in those countries use for the sport officially known as association football. – PeeJay 21:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who determines what a country's official name for the sport is? If it's the highest laws of the land, then in the U.S., "soccer" is used in 21 USC 387a-1 and in several state codes (e.g. WAC 296-17A-6809 for Washington); same in Canada. Soccer is the most common name and de facto official in several English-speaking nations, so calling it a nickname is wrong. SounderBruce 22:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Australia many clubs use the word "soccer" in their formal names. For legal reasons all these clubs would be registered with the relevant federal government body as businesses, using those names. That's about as official as you can get. It's simply NOT a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the official name should be as defined in the sport’s official ruling documents. According to football's original and current Laws of the Game (1863 and 2022), the sport is defined as just "football". There for, it can be argued that if an official name should be required, it would most likely be just ‘football’. As far as I am aware, the game is played by the same rules--or at least by rules derived from yet still in principle the same--in the USA,? SteadyJames (talk) 08:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's called football. You people are ridiculous. Fifa. No s. Stupid Americans 78.86.130.228 (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus to label soccer as a nickname, and you should not be making changes during an active discussion based on one user's agreement. It is the most common name for the sport in certain regions of the world. Plenty of articles on other concepts and terms (e.g. trunk/boot, sneaker/trainer/tennis shoes, diaper/nappy) are written in one variant of English without having to denigrate other variants by classifying them as nicknames. SounderBruce 20:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that consensus requires more than one corroborative post, I am still unaware as to exactly how quorum is reached. I'll try to learn more before my next edit. However, I disagree that defining something as a nickname in anyway denigrates a word or it's use. As you can see from my previous post that includes a dictionary definition for "nickname", soccer clearly fit the perimeter more than adequately. In fact, using that definition it s hard to capable soccer as anything but a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 21:00, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that the word soccer cannot be considered a mere nickname, because official governing bodies affiliated with FIFA such as the Canadian Soccer Association and the United States Soccer Federation use it in their names. Besides, Football Australia and New Zealand Football only changed their name to remove soccer and include football recently. It's unusual for official entities to use words considered as nicknames in their titles. TLSOSLT (talk) 15:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would say thet the use of the nickname soccer in any "official capacity" (whatever that might or could mean in relation to a sport) is erroneous when the name is and always has been stated as "football" in the Laws of the Game (1863 and editions thereafter). Governing bodies in North America and Australasia were originally known by the "Football Association" with the name of the nation as a prefix etc. only to then include soccer in efforts to differentiate and promote the sport in competitive markets dominated by subsequent codes--its marketing. The fact Australia and New Zealand have corrected their erroneous uses of the word soccer only further supports the fact that it is a nickname. However, beyond the Laws... it's difficult to understand fully what "official" might or could mean in relation to a sport--it's not like FIFA hand out fines for marketing mishaps and rule-bending is it? It would be rather petty to try an outlaw a nickname, after all. SteadyJames (talk) 09:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly have no idea what has happened in Australia, and are ignoring what others tell you. You're talking garbage. Please stop now. HiLo48 (talk) 09:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We appear to clearly be talking the difference not between "nicknames", but of formal and informal WP:COMMONNAMES for the same subject. Koncorde (talk) 11:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The specific reverted edit in question here defined soccer as a nickname, which in the English speaking world is largely correct. In this context--and as i understand the guidance provided by wikipedia--soccer nor Association football--from which soccer is extracted as a diminutive nickname--can be considered as the most commonly used name for the sport; however, both are--for various reasons--used at different times and with varying frequency to refer to the sport in question here.
Furthermore, the word 'soccer' fits the definition of a nickname as defined in the dictionary definition shared above in this thread (Merriam-Webster Online, accessed 11 February 2023), in that it is, in differing measures, both:
"
1: a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2: a familiar form of a proper name
"
Soccer's use as a nickname is accurate in relation to 'Association football' from which it is directly derived, and indirectly to 'football' as 'football' is defined in the Laws of the Game (1863 to 2022). The Laws of the Game are applicable in all jurisdictions. SteadyJames (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Except "in the English speaking world" is largely not correct. And the COMMONNAME of the article is different to other popular usages. In this article for instance we are required to differentiate from a multitude of other football games - per the article at Football where Association Football does not hold a universal monopoly. The description of it as a nickname is functionally not accurate as it is formally known as soccer in other areas of the English speaking globe whereas just as football does in the UK, whereas specifically in the UK soccer has retained a form of informal basis. Trying to parse which is the primary usage is why both are referenced equally. This has nothing to do with WP:OR from the Laws of the Game, jurisdictions etc. as that is not an authoritative source on popular usage. Koncorde (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain with citations how ““in the English speaking world" is largely not correct.” The name for the sport in Africa and South Asia is Football.
I understand the common name for Association football to be Football as referenced above. Please let me know if you are referring to a Wikipedia-specific definition used for editing when typing "COMMONNAME".
There is no problem using the nickname soccer when differentiating between codes. Indeed, this is where nicknames like soccer are most useful. No one is claiming that Association Football is the only code of football nor that it holds a monopoly--such arguments here are straw man fallacies within this discussion and, without evidence, should be dropped.
As pointed out further up in this thread by another editor, it is perhaps not relevant to discuss formal and informal distinctions of word usage here; we are talking about the definition of what is a nickname and whether soccer is a nickname for football. A dictionary definition for 'nickname' has been posted twice in this thread already without a direct reply—I’m not sure what more I can do to encourage its inclusion in the discussion. Yet, if reference is needed in relation to the real name(s) or common name for the sport, The Laws of the Game (1863 and thereafter) should be considered a primary source—they remain the highest and perhaps the only authority on the matter; the Laws… name the sport as football. The name defined in the Laws is commensurate with the sport's most popular name in the English-speaking world (see links to football in Africa and South Asia above), and in most other languages too (via a loan, direct translation, transliteration or a combination of these). Indeed, even US Soccer’s own webpage on the Laws... links directly to the IFAB pdf without translation: this document, of course, calls the game football. This would seem to reflect a parent-child relationship between US Soccer and the institutions of world football, not least the IFAB in their capacity as the custodians of the game. As an extension, because the retroactively applied name of “Association football” adds clarity to this system of nomenclature, it’s accurately used as a long name when distinguishing between football and other less popular codes. Likewise, there is no challenge to the use of the diminutive nickname soccer, which is thereafter derived from Association football, to help distinguish between codes of football. This discussion remains on whether or not soccer is a nickname for football.
The use of ‘soccer’ does not hold an informal bias in the UK, it is a seldom used nickname there that—as in other regions—is used by those associated with other codes to differentiate from Association football; it is also occasionally used in a humorous way, sometimes in the media.
The proliferation of different codes of football demanded new ways to differentiate from their progenitor—by this point known somewhat/semi-officially as Association Football after its most prominent codifying body, the Football Association. However, the newer codes under development by independent clubs and codifying bodies were considered by those involved with them as codes of football and thus maintained the use of the world football in their naming. For instance, this naming protocol remains true of rugby players today who, irrespective of their code, are often still called rugby footballers or just footballers. However, in common use, the latter definition is seldom used when talking about Rugby footballers and Association football players in general because of the confusion it causes, In these instances, players of Association football are known as just footballers, while those playing Ruby are more generally known as rugby players or by related terms.
As the proliferation of football codes solidified into the development of apparently completely separate sports, alternative terms and words were developed to differentiate between these codes. As mentioned above this began with the simple addition of relevant prefixes, such as ‘Association’, ‘Rugby’, and later ‘American’ before the word football. Based on this initial nomenclature, children playing the games in English Public Schools developed simplified, diminutive nicknames to differentiate between the codes of Rugby and Football. Among these new nicknames were soccer and rugger—both of which remain in consistent use by the minority of pupils in England that attend Public Schools. And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad. SteadyJames (talk) 08:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Soccer is not a "nickname" in the USA, it IS the name of the sport - therefore asserting it is the nickname is not accurate in the same way claiming Australian Rules Football being called "Football" in Australia is not a nickname there either - it's just the name. I stopped reading at that point because you started waffling. Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Soccer" is a nickname in the USA, just like "football" is a nickname in the UK for the sport of association football. Anything other than "association football" is a nickname. Those nicknames might appear in the names of governing bodies, but that doesn't mean they're not nicknames. I have a government/official name; among one group of friends I have one nickname, and among another group I have another nickname; that doesn't make either nickname my actual name, nor does the use of one nickname among one group stop the other nickname from being a nickname. – PeeJay 22:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's is inaccurate. We do not define "nicknames" on wikipedia by their differentiation from another word - but on what reliable sources describe them as. Football is Soccer in the USA, Canada and Australia hence the usage of those terms in those countries. In contrast Football is the primary name of the sport in England other countries. This is why every single article on English wikipedia for footballers biographies pipes "Association Football" to "Footballer" or "Soccer" dependent upon their country of origin. I'll keep linking to WP:COMMONNAME and its subsidiaries such as WP:UEIA which are clear we list alternatives as known without using diminishing terms such as "nickname" when they are popular or common names elsewhere "Beijing also known by the nickname Peking". Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The argument posited is not debating whether or not the popular name for Association football in some geographic locations is soccer--that is patently obvious via the know usage of the word. The argument is that, for the majority in the english speaking world, soccer is just a nickname. It is incorrect to assume that a nickname is a pejorative term (certainly not when using the dictionary definition supplied); likewise, it is erroneous to assume that alternative names for things cannot also be used or considered--as is often the case--as the preferred name for something. Indeed, as with the use of soccer, nicknames prove very useful when differentiating between codes of football. However, being a preferred name for something does not mean that it is not or cannot also be a nickname; it is a false dichotomy to assume so.
On naming conventions from WP:UEIA
"Whenever something else is demonstrably more common in reliable sources for English as a whole, and this is not a question of national varieties of English, use that instead."
One final point: you have used the phrase "alternative name" to describe soccer's use. Nickname is a more efficient way of saying "alternative name". SteadyJames (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting perspective, but it doesn't really fit into the spirit of what we describe in Nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "sprit" of the word nickname? We have a cited dictionary definition for the word that should be considered primary here. SteadyJames (talk) 11:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have? YOU might have. I haven't seen it. I'll bet it's cherry picked. This is simple. Nicknames almost always refer to names for people, not sport. Adding that word to this article is unnecessary, and seems primarily driven by your desire to prove that those of us who have ALWAYS known it as soccer are wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care who's right and who's wrong. I want clarity, Here's the definitions of nickname with discussion points relating to the word 'soccer' for a third time...
"The word 'soccer' fits the definition of a nickname as defined in the dictionary definition shared above in this thread (Merriam-Webster Online, accessed 11 February 2023), in that it is, in differing measures, both:
"
1: a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2: a familiar form of a proper name
"" SteadyJames (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite hilarious that you use an American dictionary definition to justify what you claim is British English usage. Sorry. That just doesn't work. HiLo48 (talk) 08:01, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
are we not talking about global usage of the word on it's own terms? I used the Webster dictionary because I was told british english does not extend to british definitions of words and their use. The OED is the principal historic dictionary for the english language in totality but is behind a paywall,so here's the Collins' British english definition:
"
Nickname
COUNTABLE NOUN
A nickname is an informal name for someone or something.
Synonyms: pet name, label, diminutive, epithet
VERB
If you nickname someone or something, you give them an informal name.
(Collins English dictionary, Online https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nickname (accessed: 18/02/2023)
"
Again, looks pretty accurate to me, and especially so for the majority of english speaker. Maybe you can offer some sources in support of your own opinion? SteadyJames (talk) 08:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, post 1863 the Laws..., the only consistency in nomenclature has been the use of the noun 'football' as the sport's given name. Association football was retroactively applied as a necessary long name needed for clarification following the subsequent codification of rugby football and other football codes. It is from Association football that the diminutive nickname soccer is derived. Pertinantly both association football and soccer are absent from IFAB literature. SteadyJames (talk) 11:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Australian rules football was codified in 1859, BEFORE soccer. It has naturally been known as football ever since in the areas where it is played. Other forms required more specific names right from their arrival in the country. So soccer was never known as football, or association football, in Australia until its national body began to try claim the name 20 years ago. And rather than following international conventions, that change was more driven by a desire to try to change the poor image of the game in Australia. Many clubs are still officially soccer clubs. In Australia, soccer is the primary name. Here is an example from a club close to where I live. Please follow that link, and tell me they are using the word "soccer" as a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 21:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a straw man. I am not and have not debated the fact that the codification of australian rules football happened before that of association football. This isn't even relevant because it wasn't the first football code either. It's a red herring.
The original name for the governing body for association football in Australia was actually ""Commonwealth Football Association". This body was then superseded by the Australian Soccer Football Association, which was formed in 1921" (Football Australia wikipedia page).
Just because clubs or even football associations use the nickname soccer alongside association football to distinguish it from other codes does not change the face it is a nickname (please see dictionary definition posted twice on this talk page and referenced several further times herein. Nor does the use of the nickname soccer as the preferred term for association football in specific geographies change the fact that the majority of the english speaking world use it infrequently as a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 07:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Liar. It's NOT the majority of the English speaking world. And that club I linked to DOES NOT use the nickname soccer alongside association football. It uses ONLY :soccer". In a way that's obviously NOT a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 08:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, are the citations used to build the wiki pages I have referenced also lying too? This page is concerned with Association football as defined in the Laws... if those clubs that use the nickname soccer in their titles are playing by the same rules, they are playing association football as defined in the Laws... if you continue to throw around unfounded allegation I'm going to have to ignore you and report you. SteadyJames (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All I know is that the word "soccer" may have originated as a nickname, but languages change over time, and today, "soccer" is the most common and even official name for football in some countries, as others have pointed out with evidence. I think that calling the word a nickname in the article would be biased towards certain regions and against the idea of "representing a worldwide view of the subject". Besides, in my opinion, the terms used in the official rulings of a sport should always be mentioned and preferred if possible, but that's not always possible, because sometimes other terms are more popular or even official in another capacity, like "soccer". "Penalty shootout" is a similar case. The Laws of the Game refer to it only as "kicks from the penalty mark", but "penalty shootout" is more common, and that's why both terms are used on Wikipedia articles, with preference to the latter because it's much more prevalent. TLSOSLT (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my reply above to points on:
-official names in sport and what we are discussing in this thread.
-representing a worldwide view.. with reference to football in Africa and football in South Asia
I agree, when common naming or nicknames are more popular than codified terms defined in the Laws... then they should be included for clarity on the Wikipedia page. This is true of the useful nickname 'soccer'. However, such inclusion does not change the fact that they are nicknames. For instance, if there is a sub-page on penalty taking in Association football, it might be useful to the reader to define exactly how that part of the game is codified with the use of relevant terms from the Laws... and then expand the explanation thereafter on the different circumstance in which the game proceeds with penalties, and perhaps even some resulting implications. SteadyJames (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should try to engage with the substance of the discussion before writing it off? Or, if you feel unable to proceed, say nothing? SteadyJames (talk) 13:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I and many other editors have tried to engage with you on this matter, many, many times. You are ignoring the bits we say that you don't like, and that refute the points you make, over and over again. You ae even lying about things. Your minor edit above made a sentence say "And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad." That is simply wrong. You have been told it's wrong many times. So, please read Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. And follow that advice. HiLo48 (talk) 22:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Without actually counting, I think there are about 5 editors that have contributed to this discussion--that in no way represents "many" in any form of the english language.
Rather than ignore anything, I have in reality, replied to every point raised in opposition and have done so in good faith in a civil manner, often with references, as requested. The same cannot be said for those opposed to the reverted edits, in your case you seem to be projecting your own faults onto others: I have provided a dictionary definition for the disputed noun 'nickname', no one--not least you--has offered a reason why it does not fit the definition other citing your own opinion that it is incorrect without any justification--referenced or otherwise.
In regards to:
"And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad."
Look at the Laws.. nowhere does it mention soccer. Its football. All FIFA members recognise football. none recognise only soccer.
Further, in regards to differentiating between codes in the UK:
"By the 20th century, rugby football was more commonly called rugby, while association football had earned the right to be known as just plain football."
(Encyclopedia Britannica Online, Accessed 16/02/2023). Furthermore, in his celebrated social history of football "The ball is round" (2006:) David Goldblatt does not mention the use of the nickname 'soccer' very much--if at all. The ball is round is a brilliant and authoritative read on the history of football with mention of other codes too. It's highly recommended.
Please do try to reply using reason and with cited sources. SteadyJames (talk) 16:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't go by the "Laws of the game", and the quoted Britannica article very blatantly states "No longer just a nickname, soccer had stuck" even if we were to use it as any kind of authoritative source. Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that the Laws... are not relevant to this page? thats crazy if so, and completely contradictory to all the separate discussions on this talk page. Surely consistency is paramount?
The operative word in the quote that you use is "just". In this context "not just" mean not limited to; ie inclusive of but with additional values and attributes, that remain undefined in the article. Indeed, the only thing this quote highlights is that soccer remains a nickname--surely you can see that,right? It's just basic logic. SteadyJames (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "just" is a very important word. It means it isn't "just" a nickname but has become something else with the article explaining how it had become the primary usage in the US and elsewhere. Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you agree that it is a nickname, then? The mental gymnastics here are insane. SteadyJames (talk) 08:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
'We don't go by the "Laws of the game"': whatever was meant by this, at least two editions of this document are used many times as references, and multiple terms used therein appear in the article, such as "goal line", "field", "match officials", "kicks from the penalty mark", etc. So that statement is not entirely true. It is true, however, that the "Laws of the Game" cannot be used to decide what the sport itself is called, or whether word X is a nickname or not, because regional linguistic differences need to be respected. Regardless, this whole discussion is going nowhere. Saying that association football is "more commonly known as football or soccer" is concise, accurate, and it doesn't need changing. TLSOSLT (talk) 20:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The "Laws of the game" are not the authoritative source on whether or not "soccer" is a commonly used word, and in some countries the primary term. Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The last thing I have to say on this matter is that the first sentence of the lead in the article's current version is really good and shouldn't be changed. TLSOSLT (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't good because soccer isn't a common name for football . Just because it is the preferred name used in your geography doesn't make it so elsewhere. SteadyJames (talk) 08:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are two related issues here: 1. under what circumstance are the Laws... the authority on the sport known commonly in the english speaking world (see referenced wiki pages of football in the english speaking world) in the Laws... themselves as football? How have you choses when or if the Laws.. are and are not applicable to the accuracy of this page? Please can you supply cited justification or logic beyond 'it is my opinion that..'.
2. What is the definition of the word nickname and how does it apply to the use of the word 'soccer' in relation to football in english speaking world? Please attempt to refute that the definition of the word 'nickname' (as posted here and referenced several times in this thread) does not adequately describe the nickname 'soccer' and its relationship to football, in particular association football. Please use more than just opinion. SteadyJames (talk) 07:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How can the name that was used almost exclusively for the game in Australia until this century be described as a nickname? And you lie. The sport is NOT commonly known in the English speaking world as football. A majority of English speakers call it soccer. Now, this has been pointed out to you before, yet you persist with the lie. Why? HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
there is no need for misplaced accusations. I have used references to demonstrate how the english speaking world calls it football, not by the nickname soccer. Please take a look at those referenced postes in this thread and respond with more than just 'I think' replies. SteadyJames (talk) 07:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. You're lying. HiLo48 (talk) 08:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, here are the references used to prove that the majority of the english speaking world don't call it 'soccer'. Football in Africa; South Asian Football federation. Here are a few others for good measure:Football in Asia; Football in India. Although I'm clearly not a lier it does appear that you only see what you wish to see. SteadyJames (talk) 08:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't sources, they are wikipedia articles, and it is somewhat odd to claim Africa, South Asia and Asia as "English speaking". Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those wikipedia pages are sourced, though. Heres a list of which countries use football or soccer: https://www.topendsports.com/sport/soccer/sport-name.htm you will see most english speaking cvountires use football. as you can see, only a small handful use exclusively soccer.
Where I am from, it is common knowledge that large parts of Africa and most of South Asia are considered part of the English speaking world--do you really need me to provide references for that? Here's the wiki page for South Asia. languages of South Asia. I can provide other sources, but is that really necessary? It a bit like demanding citations for saying that Canada is English speaking. SteadyJames (talk) 16:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now I know you're trolling. The English-speaking world is not a list of languages on a webpage that mentions it once or twice, but a group of countries where English is the primary speaking language of the majority of the population - or an otherwise official language. The argument is not that Football (or linguistic variations thereof) isn't used by a lot of countries but that soccer is specifically used by several prominent specifically English speaking countries (which is mentioned at the top of said web page). Blatant WP:NOTHERE going on. Koncorde (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If by troll you mean someone that disagrees with you.
India alone has 125 million native speakers of English. Hindi and English and the two official languages of India. indeed, the page you linked to says as much. Then there’s Pakistan, Nigeria, Kenya etc etc. all are apart of the english speaking world. Or are they the wrong kind of native English speakers, if you know what I mean? The jigs up, mate. Please start to use references in reply or just accept that your don’t know what you’re talking about and allow the edit to stand. Soccer is a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to remove the pipelinking of Association football in the Men's & Women's FIFA World Cup pages, but was unsuccessful. GoodDay (talk) 02:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to suggest to other editors here that SteadyJames is no longer adding anything useful to discussion here, and it has clearly become time to ignore him. HiLo48 (talk) 09:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. Koncorde (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The most popular sport on the globe is called football in almost all other languages, everyone around the globe will know what sport you mean when you say football,futbol,fotbol,futebol,voetbal,fodbold, except for the English speaking countries outside the UK, the second F in FIFA stands for football, its called FOOTBALL because you play the sport with your foot. I really don't care about the opinions of a bunch of Aussies and Americans. 143.176.246.244 (talk) 06:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And the "A" in "FIFA" stands for "Association", therefore it's "Association football". And it's not just played with your foot. The ball can be touched with any part of the body other than the hands, and goalies can use their hands. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is like saying in tennis the ball is played with the hands. Associate football is retrospectively applied to the game known by those involved with it as football, as defined by the rules of the game. SteadyJames (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mixed-gender

It says in the infobox that it is gender separated. However, since this is supposed to be a general article about football, and not the FIFA which explicitly outlaws gender mixing, this is not quite true. For example, in the highest swedish professional league Allsvenskan, both men and women are allowed to compete. It should not say in this article that it is gender-separated. 78.69.118.151 (talk) 17:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Literally everything you said is 100% wrong. The Allsvenskan is a men's league, the Damallsvenskan is a women's league. This is not like NFL v XFL, all official football leagues in the world play to the Laws of the Game, there isn't a league called "the FIFA" that plays by different laws. There are not teams in Sweden playing with six men and five women in competitive games - I mean, you'd remember if you saw that, so I don't know where you got that idea from. What would they do in European games in countries where women can't play alongside men? Forfeit? 90.240.29.158 (talk) 12:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There aren't many men-only leagues in the world. A woman could play in the Allsvenskan if she was good enough, same with the Premier League. I doubt the same is the case in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but certainly in Europe, the leagues we tend to think of as "men's leagues" are actually open; the only restriction is on men playing in women's leagues. – PeeJay 18:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, everything I just said is not wrong. Allsvenskan does not forbid women from competing (although Damallsvenskan forbids men from competing). The Laws of the Game are not the only rules in football, and rules may vary between different leagues. You are correct there isn’t a league called “the FIFA”, well observed; FIFA is the international governing body of football. I will state it again very clearly for you: since this article is about the game of football, and not the rules of the world cup or premier league or whatever, it should not state that the game is gender-separated, as that varies a lot. separated. 78.69.118.151 (talk) 02:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any sources for the assumption that the leagues in developed countries which we consider to be men's leagues are actually elite mixed leagues that have never chosen to sign a player from their all-female reserve teams? The "About" section on the Allsvenskan website says "Allsvenskan.se is run by the Swedish Elite Football Association. The Swedish Elite Football Association is an interest organization for the 32 clubs in Allsvenskan and Superettan. The mission is to drive the development of national men's elite football; sporting, financial, commercial and administrative." [1] Seems a bit odd to me that non-gendered teams are publicly stating that they are only investing in the men's game. If you go on any Premier League team's website, in the "teams" section, it will say men and women, not "first team" and "women". [2] [3] I can't believe this is even a discussion when no women have played officially in any of these mentioned leagues. 84.69.100.29 (talk) 15:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No While it may be true that there may be limited instances in which men are permitted to participate with women and vice versa, none of these are mainstream, and even when they do exist, they are effectively 'de-jure' (officially, but not in practice). The article should not say that football is mixed sex, because FIFA (the international governing body) prohibits it, so the article should reflect the highest governing body, and not more minor instances. In addition, the premier league in the UK (as an example) is for men's teams, and can be strongly evidenced by no women ever appearing in it over its history. Lawrence 979 (talk) 18:36, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide evidence that FIFA prohibits mixed-gender football to take place. There is no such rule, and women can freely take part in so-called "men's" matches, but please, do entertain us with such a rule... – PeeJay 18:45, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3950e57162ea513d/original/ihf3yx6kw3insqt6r0i6-pdf.pdf See page 9 Lawrence 979 (talk) 19:01, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
These are rules for ”FIFA competitions”, and not the game of football. The FIFA’s role is not to regulate the game of football, which this article is about. The Allsvenskan (and many other leagues) is just as much as football as the premier league, but since no rule in the laws of the game states it must be gender-separated, this article should not state that. 78.69.118.151 (talk) 14:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IS this article about FIFA football or the overall game of association football? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given that FIFA doesn't get a mention until the third paragraph of the lead, I'd say it's clearly the latter. HiLo48 (talk) 01:33, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The International Football Association Board maintains the Laws of the Game (LOTG), which are quite brief. FIFA co-ordinates intercontinental competitions (and oversees the continental and national federations). FIFA competitions have extra or stricter rules than LOTG: e.g. the max and min length and width of the pitch are a narrower range than Law 1; the ball must have much higher certification than Law 2; shirt designs are subject to stricter rules than Law 4; extra officials are not optional as in Law 6; etc. etc. LOTG says nothing about mixed-sex competition. A quick google football "first woman" "a men's team" gives this news story from May 2021:

For the past 25 years, women in the Netherlands have only been able to play in mixed teams up to and including the under-19s. From next season, they can compete in amateur men's teams up to the Tweede Divisie, a mere two tiers below the top flight Eredivisie.

My summary would be...

Most regulated football competitions for adults are single-sex, include all those at elite level. Gender-blind teams are more common at younger age levels and in less formal events, although some are nearly all male in practice.

...though this would still need proper sourcing. It is plausible that in some places, all teams or competitions at the very youngest age levels are gender-blind. "Less formal events" includes not just street football but also competitions organised by groups not affiliated to any FA. I would link to pub league but the linked article describes FA-linked events. Maybe beer league? jnestorius(talk) 01:15, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2023

contact = Limited change it to Full and add references beside contact [1] 80.233.39.116 (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Blogs are not reliable sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://jobsinfootball.com/blog/basics/is-soccer-a-contact-sport/

Football pitch

A football pitch describes any area on which association football, in all of its derivative forms, is played. "Football field" does not adequately describe a football pitch under all circumstances which the game and its derivatives are played. Therefore, I would like to change the application of "field" in the introductory text to "playing area".

Because football can be played on a variety of surfaces, it is not adequate to use the words "field" and "pitch" synonymously. While it is true that the Law of the Game for 11-a-side Association football (real football) define the playing area as "the field of play", it cannot be assumed that all derivative form of football based on "the laws…" are played on a field. Indeed, as derivative forms of football have progressed, the game is frequently played on a variety of surfaces, including but not limited to grass, dirt, gravel, concrete, asphalt, parquet and rubber. All such areas are pitches, yet not all pitches are situated in fields. SteadyJames (talk) 19:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this article should only (or mostly) be about association football "proper", that is, the sport that started with the publication of the Laws of the Game by The Football Association in 1863. The current version of the Laws that are kept by IFAB evolved directly from that original set of rules. Therefore, this article should follow it, reflecting its guidelines and terminology. Variants of football such as futsal and beach soccer, which have different sets of rules and playing areas, have their own separate articles already. The Laws of the Game use the terms "field", "football field" and "field of play", so it's not inaccurate to use them in this article as well. Besides, it states that the pitch must be either "wholly natural" or of a green "artificial surface". TLSOSLT (talk) 16:37, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with such a strict definition is that misses the obvious fact that those subcodes (if you will) of football referenced are directly derived from the Laws of the Game and in principle maintain most of the same rule, albeit augmented to meet different needs and circumstances. Unlike other codes derived from the Laws of the Game--such as rugby football and American football--these subcodes are recognisably the same simple game. They might be a family of games but i think that's talking it too far. SteadyJames (talk) 13:03, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of players

The number of players defined in the introduction is inaccurate and should be updated.

The Laws of the Game define that there should be no more than 11 and no fewer than 7 players per team if a game of football is to proceed.

In addition, alternative forms of football that are derived from the laws of the game and maintain the central premises of Association football also vary in the number of players included on teams. Although these varient games can include teams comprised of one player or unlimited numbers players per team, it is more typical to have between 5 and 8 players per side. For Example, these varieties of football are commonly known as 5-a-side, 7-a-side or by other relevant corresponding denomination or specific name.

With this considered I propose that the text be changed to reflect this. SteadyJames (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the sake of brevity, it's better to keep the information that the game is "played between two teams of 11 players" in the introduction, because it's already mentioned in Association football#Players, equipment, and officials that "a match should not continue if there are fewer than seven players in either team". It's also rare for official matches to start with fewer than 22 players on the field in total. As for other varieties of football, I already shared my opinion on the matter in another section. TLSOSLT (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've regularly played in games that have started and/or ended with few than 11 players on one or both teams. Any less than seven and the game is either abandoned or postponed in one way or another. It is accurate to say that football is a game "played between two teams of no more than 11 players" SteadyJames (talk) 13:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the purpose of introducing the game we use the proper number of the main game, and then later on go into detail of variants. Koncorde (talk) 20:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where I live, it's accurate to say that football is a game played between two teams of no more than 18 players. That's why this article is call Association football. HiLo48 (talk) 22:36, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The proper numbers are teams between 7 and 11 player with designated goal keepers.

No one is debating the name of the game is Association football (straw man). SteadyJames (talk) 10:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The proper number is 11 aside. That the rules provide leeway for less is not the issue of sentence #1 in the article. Koncorde (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name

The name section should acknowledge that football is the global name for the sport, and that “soccer” is secondary. At the moment soccer—a nickname for most English speakers—is presented equally to the games actual name. SteadyJames (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer isn't secondary in those countries where Soccer is the primary term (usually due to conflict with other "football" games that take precedence). We've covered this before. We explain the context fully in the article in the Name section. Koncorde (talk) 00:08, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a very long thread called Soccer near the top of this page where this user spent many weeks unsuccessfully arguing pretty much this same point. Regurgitation is pointless. HiLo48 (talk) 00:34, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]


  • What I think should be changed:
    −
    The final of the men's tournament has been, in recent years
    		+
    Since 2009, the final of the men's tournament has been
  • Why it should be changed: To conform to MOS:SINCE. The already cited source implies the 2009 date.
  • References supporting the possible change: [1] [2] [3]

Dvbnadfb (talk) 17:16, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Cheers! Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 17:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Next time, please make sure to create a separate topic to put your edit request in. Thank you! Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 17:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8490351.stm. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  2. ^ https://en.as.com/soccer/super-bowl-vs-champions-league-final-which-is-the-most-watched-sporting-event-n/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
  3. ^ https://en.as.com/soccer/tv-ratings-how-many-people-watched-the-2023-champions-league-final-n/. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Requested move 26 June 2023

– These are soccer players, not "soccer", just like Zinchenko is called Oleksandr Zinchenko (footballer), and not Oleksandr Zinchenko (football).

I know it will take a while to update Category:American soccer players, but I've started by RMing the appropriate USMNT players. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 15:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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