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Fair use (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Fair use, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Fair useWikipedia:WikiProject Fair useTemplate:WikiProject Fair useFair use articles

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July 20 § Henry Kulka images

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July 20 § Henry Kulka images. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Di templates

I think the following "di" (which I'm assuming stands for "delete image") probably should be renamed because their current names might cause confusion between fair use and non-free content use.

Pretty much any non-free image uploaded to Wikipedia would probably be an acceptable type of fair use, but that's not really what matters when it comes to WP:NFCC. The NFCC were developed to be more restrictive than fair use which means we should try and avoid mixing up the two terms whenever possible. Templates like {{Non-free}}, {{Non-free reduce}} and even {{uw-nonfree}} seem to have no issues not using the expression "fair use"; so, I don't know why we shouldn't be striving for a little more consistency in naming. There are probably other templates as well that might need to be looked at, but the di ones are the ones I see being used the most. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a reasonable motion but it should be ratified at WP:TFD. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:57, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting the templates be deleted; I'm suggesting that they be moved to a new name. I'm not sure that TFD is needed for that and such a discussion might not even be appropriate for TFD per "Policy or guideline templates" at WP:TFD#What not to propose for discussion here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TFD ("Templates for discussion") also handles renames etc. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, the correct venue for template renames is requested moves. There have been various proposals over the years to change it to TfD, but none of them have gone anywhere. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:29, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus and Pppery: If RM is the best place to continue this discussion, then that's fine. I didn't think TFD was applicable (even if the "D" means discussion) because it clearly states "Templates that are associated with particular Wikipedia policies or guidelines, such as the speedy deletion templates, cannot be listed at TfD separately. They should be discussed on the talk page of the relevant guideline." on the TFD page which is why I started the discussion here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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 {{central|Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria}}
 {{see also|Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions}}
-== Non-free photos of no longer existing bands ==
-The NFCC seems to make allowances for non-free images of bands that no longer exist, even if some of their members may still be living and performing. I think this might be one of the reasons that photos such as [[:File:NSYNC in 1998.jpg]] and [[:File:Cindy Wilson.jpg]] might be considered or at least are claimed to be OK. FWIW, I say "might" because I'm not sure with so many bands reuniting off and on post-breakup which is probably why we use photos like the one used in [[:Culture Club]] instead of one from the band's heyday. Anyway, if, for the sake of argument, such non-free photos can be considered NFCC-compliant per [[:WP:FREER]], then what about posters or artwork showing bands like [[:File:Y PANTS poster for TR3.jpg]]. There seems to be very little primary identification value of a band provided by a non-free poster such as this, unless they all look like stick people. [[:Barbara Ess|One of the members]] of the Y Pants is dead, and the other two might be dead (there seem to be no Wikipedia articles about them); so, any new photos of the three together (e.g. a live performance photo) can be taken. There might be an existing free photo to be found or a better non-free one which could be used like [https://www.discogs.com/artist/258499-Y-Pants this one] which could be used instead. Anyone have any suggestions on how this kind of non-free use is covered or has been covered under the NFCC? -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 10:33, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
-:We'd definitely prefer non-free images of the actual members of bands where free images are no longer possible (this could include concern posters that include actual photos of said members if no other photos are available). I think we should shun away from otherwise pictorial representation of bands ''unless'' we're talking band logos that they otherwise identified with. --[[User:Masem|M<span style="font-variant: small-caps">asem</span>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 13:18, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
-:I don't know how any of this was decided in the past.  With respect to the use of logos, I agree with Masem that a picture would be preferable.  Are there any bands that are known primarily by their logo?  As for using more current photos versus from their heyday, one could use a non-free image from an earlier time period if [[WP:NFCC#8]] could be met.  A case might be made for a classic lineup that was the best known version of a band during the peak of their success although I expect that would be a weak case as we generally don't accept non-free images of living performers unless their particular look was a significant aspect.  Off the top of my head, [[A Flock of Seagulls]] might be able to justify a non-free image based on Mike Score's hairdo of the that era.  The two sample photos you started with stating they might be okay actually look very problematic.  The Nsync photo has a non-free rationale stating that the image copyright holder is Billboard.  The source for the upload was Billboard but the copyright holder is Getty Images.  The little "i" inside a circle icon in the [https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/8258181/nsync-debut-album-us-20th-anniversary-oral-history Billboard article] provides a caption crediting "Steve Eichner/Getty Images".  The Cindy Wilson image doesn't have any commentary about it. -- [[User:Whpq|Whpq]] ([[User talk:Whpq|talk]]) 02:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
-::I didn't notice that about the NSYNC photograph. That's a good catch which means it probably can't be used per [[:WP:NFCC#2]]. Whether it should be tagged per [[:WP:F7]] or taken to FFD, I guess depends on how contentious you think things are going to get. As for the other B-52's photo, I've actually been mulling taking that to FFD for quite awhile now and was going to do so later today, but just wasn't entirely sure. I don't think it's non-free use is really justifiable, but one of the persons shown in the photo is deceased though there's another non-free photo of him being used in [[:Ricky Wilson (American musician)]]. It is odd though that you'd add that photo to one article, but not also add it to the other since the justification (if you believed it to be valid) would naturally apply to both articles. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 03:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
-{{od|3}}{{ping|Masem|Whpq}} Do either of you have any opinion on [[:File:The Kinleys.jpg]]? Neither of [[:The Kinleys]] seem to have died and their appearance doesn't seem to be the reason why they're Wikipedia notable. In fact, it's quite possible that they look not all that different today from how they looked in 2000. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 08:31, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
-:{{u|Marchjuly}}: Whether [[The Kinleys]] are notable enough or not should be discussed elsewhere but until a freely licensed image becomes available then it is acceptable to use this image. They don't appear to be performing or even appear together as the duo, so I'd say it's ok for now. [[User:Ww2censor|ww2censor]] ([[User talk:Ww2censor|talk]]) 09:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
-::{{ping|Ww2censor}} Thank you for the response. FWIW, my mentioning of notability wasn’t referring to The Kinleys notability as it pertains to whether an article can be written about the group, but rather to point out that their physical appearance isn’t necessarily why there’s a Wikipedia article written about them. They’re not a [[:visual kei]] type of band that was known for how they looked as much as the quality if their music. There’s no elaborate costuming or make up involved so I was just curious if just showing them together was enough per item 1 of [[:WP:NFC#UUI]]. [https://mobile.twitter.com/1041theranch/status/1194971706638643201 This Tweet from 2019] shows them making an appearance at a radio station. So, if they’re doing such things, then a free equivalent might not be unreasonable to expect. — [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 11:23, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
 ==Discussion at [[:Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July 20#Henry Kulka images|Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July 20 §&nbsp;Henry Kulka images]]==