Talk:Jair Bolsonaro: Difference between revisions

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"Dilma Rousseff, along with other terrorists of the time, would have been tortured (even though her cell mate stated that she never truly was tortured, nor has ever proved through medical examinations)." Implying that she was de facto a terrorist, a terminology commonly used during the dictatorship to misinform the population so that people did not think that the government was limiting the right to exercise political opposition but rather ending with "terrorism" (citation to this are a lot of brazilian history books that I don't remember the name). Also, the "cell mate stated that she never truly was tortured" have no citation, and in my own reseaches I only found that this information is a lie created by non trustable media blogs, actually I found an entire interview with her cellmate stating that they were tortured. I'm removing this section from the article.

PS, for some reason, compating the link through wikipedia '[ ]' is not working, so here is the interview: https://noticias.uol.com.br/politica/ultimas-noticias/2016/04/01/ela-jamais-entregaria-os-pontos-diz-ex-companheira-de-cela-de-dilma.htm -- 179.212.91.12 (talk) 04:08, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

this article by her cellmate does not say whe was NOT tortured. At least not explicitly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.79.238.188 (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the notorious case of the discussion with Maria do Rosário. Bolsonaro's exact words in portuguese, widely available on video, were "você não merece" [1], which translate to "you do not deserve", not "you are nor worthy" as reported by the Huffington Post [2]. The Huffington Post article has an incorrect translation, either by incompetence or intenttional bias. Do not repeat that error in this article. Fbergo (talk) 12:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't remove content which is backed by reliable sources. That constitutes vandalism and, if you persist in this behaviour, sanctions (such as blocking) may be applied. Consider yourself warned. Pay attention to the sources. Regardless of your opinion on The Huffington Post, this site widely considered a reliable source in this wiki. Altering the content of the articles contradicting the sources for your own biasis is vandalism. I advise you to stop it.

And also, respect the wp:status quo of the article. Coltsfan (talk) 12:21, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Congratulations on claiming that the Huffington Post is more reliable than the videos of his actual speech [3] (at 0:12) and later mentioned in session [4] (at 0:36) and hundreds of articles in the mainstream brazilian media (such as the one that I added as a source and you repeatedly removed) in order to defend the mistranslated quote on the article. Fbergo (talk) 12:31, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is his speach in english? No. So we are talking about the translation of the word here. You are trying to change "worth" (which is what he was trying to say) for the word "deserve" because you believe this word is more soft (a classic case of 'push pov'). Do not use wikipedia to transmite your political bias, whatever they are. And no WP:POINT either. Coltsfan (talk) 12:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please read this article from The Guardian, which I suggest be added as an english-language source alongside the Huffington one: [5] . The whole matter started in a live TV interview in 2003 ([6]), where his words translate directly to "does not deserve" (and the Guardian uses this as translation in the article body). Many years later, in december 2014, Bolsonaro gave an interview to a print newspaper, Zero Hora (the actual interview is this one, but may be behind a paywall depending on geolocation: [7]), where he expanded on the previous discussion. The compensation he had to pay is related to this 2014 print interview, not the 2003 one. It would be helpful to expand the paragraph to clarify and contextualize the matter (that spans over a decade). I will no longer edit the article about it, but do consider weighting in different sources. Huffington is knowingly a left-wing outlet, and it is expected to have a bias when reporting on a right-wing politician. Fbergo (talk) 13:28, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on who you are asking, even The Guardian can be called left wing (or right wing). This doesn't say much. The thing is: you are trying to sugarcoat what he is saying. But fine, you are saying that The Huffington Post is too left wing? Great. How about The Telegraph? How about Time.com? even the freaking Guardian again? Are they all left wing? All of these sources say that Bolsonaro meant to say that that woman was not "worth" being raped. So there you go: multiple WP:RS backing what is said on the article. Coltsfan (talk) 14:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Você não merece" can be either, worthy or deserve, and can be interpreted both ways. Don't try to impose a lighter character to the sentence as this is a obvious case of language manipulation made by him. -- 179.212.91.210 (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

he did actually worse because when asked why she did not deserve to be raped, bolsonaro stated "because she is ugly". hence "you are not wothy" is more accurate. https://politica.estadao.com.br/blogs/coluna-do-estadao/depoimento-de-bolsonaro-no-caso-maria-do-rosario-e-adiado/

Bolsonaro defended a voluntary birth control. http://bahia.ba/politica/bolsonaro-defendeu-rigido-controle-de-natalidade-para-pobres/

BBC and Guardian think he is - I am just confused to his actual far right agenda which I can't seem to find anywhere. I am not sure being against racial quotas and same sex marriage makes one far right - and yet the article indicates these are representative of his far right attributes. Reaper7 (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• @Reaper7: In agreement, I have speedily changed that part to "right-wing populist" until further notice. This is a high-profile politician in the news, so we need to get it right.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  20:16, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, we use reliable sources, not our personal judgement of what is "far-right" to decide who is far right. Since your change was not predicated on policy, but instead on your personal opinion of this guy, I'm reverting your change. Also, don't put WP:NPOV tags for no reason please. If you have a concrete explanation of what material is missing, that's backed up with sources, present them on the talk page, and then add the tag. Don't add the tag just because you don't like the article. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 20:25, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Reaper7: Editing "strikes me as" to "makes one" doesn't change what you're doing. Wikipedia isn't a forum, so it isn't for us to decide what constitutes far right in Brazil. And let me ask you what you try to accomplish by making Wikipedia a WP:BATTLEGROUND? Do you think labeling him as right rather than far-right will make him more palatable to the "leftists" you hate so much? I doubt it. Equivocating on the label because a few editors think he's not extreme enough to be far-right will only make Wikipedia viewed as less reliable a source. So I ask you to reconsider what you're trying to do when you push your anti-leftist agenda on Wikipedia. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 23:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I spinned it off to Attempted assassination of Jair Bolsonaro, but was reverted by Coltsfan. In my opinion, the attack is not that significant for his biography. The section about his campaign currently contains only a couple of sentences, and a lengthy paragraph and subsection about the attack seems WP:UNDUE to me. wumbolo ^^^ 13:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You just applied copy and paste to the text from one article to the other. Rewrite Attempted assassination of Jair Bolsonaro with other words and more content and it should be fine. Coltsfan (talk) 13:28, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we only include a sentence or two on this article, then my article can be restored (per WP:SPINOFF). wumbolo ^^^ 13:32, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read WP:COPYWITHIN. Might enlighten things a bit. Coltsfan (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did exactly what the guideline said. What's the problem? wumbolo ^^^ 14:17, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You said "In my opinion, the attack is not that significant for his biography". Really? The guy almost died, a candidate for the presidency of a country, and it's not significant? That's just plain wrong. Second, you just copy and paste the content. We'd have two articles with the same text. Better be in one place then. This is not a case of forking. Like i said, if you have wrote the other article with different words, or a different approach, that would be a different thing. Other than that, the attempt on the congressman's life is very relevant to his article here. Coltsfan (talk) 14:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. The first edition of the article doesn't have to be more than a stub. --Pudeo (talk) 13:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The attack and its outcome is a current event. Spinning it off into a second article will only make it harder for both versions to agree with each other as new information becomes available. The historical importance of the attack will only be accurately perceived after the election cycle, and it is good practice in editing wikipedia to be cautions and avoid attempting to report events in real time like a newspaper (WP:NOTNEWS). For now, it seems appropriate to keep everything about the attack within this article. Fbergo (talk) 15:29, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To me the quote attributed to Bolsonaro sounds more like he is advocating people use condoms and the like rather than the poor being sterilised against their will. The quote is in English, fortunately, as I cannot read Portuguese, so I may be missing an implication or something in what he actually said. Anyway, is he actually saying something a bit dubious here or is it quite innocent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tapirium (talk • contribs) 01:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He means birth control not in terms of condoms, but in terms of governmental birth control (think China's one child law). According to the article, currently Brazil bans any form of governmental birth control. Basically, he wants to stop the poor from reproducing via induced sterilization. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 01:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree with Tapirium. He does not appear to be stating he wishes to sterilise the poor. Reaper7 (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

China hasn't had a policy of sterilization though, as far as I know, advocating contraception or family planning does not mean sterilization, which is an extreme thing, especially if you have no choice in the matter.Tapirium (talk) 02:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article specifically says induced sterilization. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 18:11, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the section: Birth control of the poor, it states that, 'Bolsonaro provoked considerable controversy for public remarks made in July 2008, when he advocated the forcible sterilization of poor people'. I suppose this qualifies as induced, forcible is a somewhat stronger term though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tapirium (talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn’t read 1/4 of the article out of sheer embarrassment. It’s clearly written by someone who dislikes Bolsonaro and misrepresents information. --Lecen (talk) 21:30, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Could you be specific? This isn't worth for anything — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.183.36.250 (talk) 01:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

”when he advocated the forcible sterilization of poor people”. NOWHERE, in the article, with the exception of the title, is there any quote from Bolsonaro in which he proposes that. --Lecen (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Lecen: This paragraph cites another article that describes this quote. Is it accurate? Jarble (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that Bolsonaro is famous for his "tough speech". He is a politician that uses controversy in order to get media attention (this is well documented by reliable sources inside the article). So what should we do? Pretend he is not controversial in order to give an impression of "fairness"? No. We that would be dishonest. Plus, all the information present in the article are backed by reliable sources. As for the "sterilization of the poor", the problem is not in the lack of sources ([8], [9]). But the new tittle of the section should elucidate things better now. Coltsfan (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some editors in this article have been trying to whitewash Bolsonaro's support for the 1964–1985 military dictatorship or downright totally suppress the word "dictatorship". I'd like to address that.

A. "Was the brazilian 1964–85 military dictatorship an actual dictatorship?"

• Yes. And that is not even up for debate. It is a consensus among historians, scholars and journalists that this period in time was a dictatorship. Basic characteristics of a democracy, such as the right to oppose the government, did not exist. Any political dissident was arrested, tortured or exiled, typical characteristics of a dictatorship. (source, source, source, source).

B. "Why is Bolsonaro's support for that regime so noteworthy and what does this have to do with its brutality?"

• Simple. Bolsonaro doesn't support the 1964–85 military government despite it's brutality. No. Actually, it's one of the reasons why he supports it. In fact, he has made this one of his signature battle cries over the years. Let me give a few examples.

1) He has voiced his admiration for Colonel Ustra, a notorious torturer and human rights abuser (source, source, source).

2) Bolsonaro once said that the biggest mistake of the brazilian dictatorship was the fact that they "tortured [people] but did not killed [them]". (source)

3) He has mocked the death of political dissidents of that regime and has also openly mocked some efforts to find their remains, claiming that "dogs look for bones" (source, source).

4) A major part of his support comes exactly from the supposed "toughness" of that dictatorship (source, source, source, source, source, source).

So when users like Dilidor removes the phrase "a dictatorship known for constant human rights violations", he is not only removing information backed by reliable sources, in violation of WP:V, he is trying to sugar coat it. What makes Bolsonaro's support for the 1964–1985 military dictatorship so peculiar, is the fact that he supports a regime that is best known for its brutality and was actually a model for other military regimes in the continent.

So, it's not a matter of "that information lacks RS". It's not a matter of "that content is up for debate". So, if it's not that, it must be something else. So, i'd ask people to stop with the WP:POINT. Bring your own sources, discuss it first, and then talk about removing valid information backed by reliable sources. Actually, as you can see, a lot of what i wrote here is not even on the article! So, who is doing the PUSHPOV here? I was the one who expanded his biography and added other information other than his controversies. But apparently some people are trying to either turn this article into a "Love letter" or into a "diss track". In my opinion, it has to be neither. But the truth must come first (when backed by WP:SOURCES). Coltsfan (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your accusation of "whitewashing" suggests that you have an agenda of mud-slinging. My deletions have been an attempt to retain a neutral point of view, but you are endeavoring to take a side in the "widespread contention" over the man's politics. —Dilidor (talk) 16:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not "mud-slinging". I'm stating the things as i see them. But look, look how this article was just 5 months ago. There were 3 lousy unreferenced paragraphs in the section "Political career". While the "Criticism" section was pretty beefy. I'm trying to help mantain an article that is both accurate and truthful. But i'm not gonna create a false balance, by saying that the guy's accomplishments have the same weight as his controversies, when the sources themselves don't swing that way. An article can be neutral and truthful at the same time, we don't have to sacrifice one to achieve the other.

The interpretation should be like this: 'the article says the man defends the 1964–85 military dictatorship. Why is this peculiar enough to be mentioned? Ah it's because of the nature of said dictatorship. Does it have reliable sources to back it up? It does, really, more than one, actually. Good'. Like i said, an article can be neutral and truthful at the same time. But if we have to "hide stuff", twist meanings and "play with words" in order to give an impression of neutrality, that means we're throwing WP:NEUTRAL out the window. If you take the time to read the sources i posted, you will see that not mentioning that fact would be a very neglectable move. Coltsfan (talk) 17:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coltsfan: "I'm not mud-slinging. I'm stating the things as i see them." So you say potato…. Stating things as you see them is putting forward an opinion and making a value judgment. Leaving out a value judgment ("the regime was characterized by human rights violations") is not "hiding" anything; it is merely avoiding stating one editor's opinions and value judgments "as I see them". That's why I keep deleting it. —Dilidor (talk) 18:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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I am requesting that the section on birth control for the poor be improved or removed. It states that Bolsonaro advocates the forceful sterilization of the poor then gives a quote from him that does not, to me, clearly state or even imply this. Clearly there are articles condemning him for such a stance, I fully accept that he may indeed have, or have had, such a belief, however, his quote ought to show clearly what his stance is, or else remove the quote and show why others believe him to hold these views. Forcible sterilization of the poor is obviously a subject that is important to have included, it is something that he is accused of, I do not wish to remove any mention of the matter. Merely to have the article clearer to readers such as myself who are ignorant of Brazilian politics. Regards Tapirium (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have at least 3 sources (1, 2, and 3) that say otherwise. This source, for instance, says he tried in his career to put forward three laws that reduce the minimum age for clinic sterilization. WP:V says: "readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up." How to be truthful to that if we're gonna ignore the sources in order to "manage the tone" or to get PC? Doesn't make much sense. Coltsfan (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not arguing whether he holds the position or not, merely, suggesting that the following quote: "It is no good talking about education because most of these people are not prepared to receive education and will not educate themselves. Only birth control can save us from chaos," attributed to him does not really (at least not to me) show that his views are what is stated in the rest of the article. If he holds such views and is outspoken about them then isn't there a Portuguese speaker who could find us a better quote? He seems to have a reputation of being outspoken and opinionated on all sorts of controversial issues, this one in particular has received plenty of attention, so, I presume there are better quotes. Many journalists would have quizzed him on it, let's get a better response from him.Tapirium (talk) 18:20, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coltsfan, I'm really worried about your misrepresentation of sources and I truly hope that is caused by lack of understanding of Portuguese. One of your sources says "Let's bring back Eugenics and save our race by removing ugly people from circulation. How wonderful." This is not journalistic work, it's a biased and unethical political activism. You have to provide reliable sources, do you understand this basic requirement to edit on Wikipedia? Now, back to Bolsonaro. I'm Brazilian from Ceará (one of the sources, O POVO, is actually owned by my first cousins), and I'll translate each of Bolsonaro's quotes (all sources provide the same quotes, but I'm using Folha de São Paulo, which is regarded as the most reliable among them):

1) "I'm not allowed to say it, that I put forth, but I wish Brazil had a program of family planning. A man and woman with good education will hardly wish to have another son to be dependable on government aid."

2) "Poor people are useful [in the eyes of politicians] for one thing only: to vote. Voting ID in one hand and a degree of ignorance in the pocket, to vote on whichever party is in power."

3) "We must adopt a rigid birth control policy. We can no longer make demagogic speeches, asking for resources and means from the government to aid these miserable people that grow more and more throughout our country."

4) "I'm in favor of death penalty and of rigid birth control, because I see violence [crime] and poverty growing more and more in our country. Who has no means to raise more children than is capable of, shouldn't have them [more children than can afford to raise]. This is what I'm in favor, I'm not worried about having votes for the next election."

5) "It's pointless to talk about education, because the majority of the population is not prepared to be educated [due to the precarious situation of public schooling in Brazil] and wont be educated. Only birth control will save us."

6) "It's about time we discuss a policy to contain the demographic explosion, otherwise we'll be wasting time voting government aid only." [he mentions government aid programs for the poor, such as "bolsa-família" and "vale-gás", which has no good translation without sounding awkward]

7) "We have to provide the means for those who, unfortunately, lacks education and has no way of preventing unwanted pregnancy. Because we [people with better education and higher income] can, while the poor cannot."

Nowhere, Bolsonaro suggests any idea regarding "forced sterilization of the poor." It was an unethical title placed in the newspapers articles and it's even worse to see Wikipedia, which is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia, to push forward. Even less a few editors who seem to be carried away by their own personal political opinions. What Bolsonaro seems to indicate from his words (nowhere he says exactly what he has in mind) is that the government should facilitate means for the poor in Brazil to have access to birth control measures, such as educational campaigns, birth control pills, government funded tubal ligation and/or vasectomy. --Lecen (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]