User talk:Nøkkenbuer: Difference between revisions

Congratulations to all the contributors to today's featured article. You deserve a lot of applause, recognition and appreciation. What a interesting and wonderful article.

  Bfpage |leave a message  11:45, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I guess, though I only removed one period and added one word. I know this is a mass message and all, but I find that amusing. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 11:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to explain why your edits on Casino Royale were reverted (not by me, I am slow but would have done the same thing.) Fixed image sizes are not good because readers have different devices and different preferences. If you have to change image size, use "upright="multiplier, for example upright=1.2, for an image a bit larger than normal. Exceptions are userboxes and infoboxes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks. I was unaware of that specification. I'm still very new to Wikipedia, so I'm not really versed in these technicalities. I appreciate the revert, and have no problem with it. Your explanation is definitely helpful, and I'll keep that in mind for the future. (That "M" still bothers me, though!) ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:08, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the message, i am trying to remove some disturbing data from the article named Islam, writer should know that there is no concept of painting in photos in ISLAM, By posting such things in the wiki articles can create some serious troubles to the Muslims, and can confuse the readers kindly have a glance on the Painting in the Article.

Sorry, but I think you may have messaged the wrong person. I have done some editing on articles relating to Islam and Muhammad, but I haven't removed any images. If you believe there are some problems with the depiction of Muhammad in one of the articles, I recommend bringing it up on the article's talk page. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not censored, however, so unless you have some serious concerns regarding the accuracy of the content or the legality of it (such as copyright issues and whatnot), I'm not sure if you'll be able to accomplish much. Good luck, though! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:14, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Really, I think we could engage in open debate until our star burns out, without changing anyone's mind. As I indicated in my last comment, we will need a tie-breaker in the form of expert opinions or an RfC. If it's RfC, I'd suggest saving your debate for that. Even then, you should state your position clearly one time and keep further comments selective and brief, lest the discussion become so large that no new arrivals have the time to read and comprehend all of it. I write this only because I know you to be receptive to suggestions (most newer editors believe they already know everything they need to know). When I find some time I'll find a good barnstar for you. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:36, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I appreciate it! I was already planning on giving you a barnstar for tolerating me (and for all your hard work, of course), but I was going to keep that a secret. Anyway, I've already stated my position more than enough; I'm not interested in a long, protracted debate right now, nor do I think it would be beneficial at this time. I'll save it for RfC if it comes to that, though I'll probably just be quoting myself, seeing how I've pretty much covered all relevant points I wanted to make in my posts. The only way I could add more would be to expand my argument further to apply to the specification of any extraneous and superfluous information which could be misinterpreted as implying something more. I doubt I'll go there, though, since that only complicates the issue further. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:46, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

		The Excellent New Editor's Barnstar A new editor on the right path
		Amazing progress as an editor in only 40 days, eager to learn and to collaborate, keeps a level head in a debate, committed to improving Shooting of Walter Scott. A promising editing future. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:16, 16 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOCONSENSUS In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. However, for contentious matters related to living people, a lack of consensus often results in the removal of the contentious matter, regardless of whether the proposal was to add, modify or remove it. Jim1138 (talk) 00:48, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the information, Jim1138, but I am a bit confused. Did I do something wrong? Or are you just letting me know about something which may be important to me? If the former, then sorry for the trouble. If the latter, then thanks! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:14, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was sort of an oopsie. I clicked on the wrong editor's talk link. I realized my error later. It does seem to be a good FYI given some of the discussion on talk:sexism. Keep up the good work! Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 01:35, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! No problem. Have a great day! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 01:36, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings Nøkkenbuer! I made some changes with respect to the linking at article Buer. I was wondering if you are familiar with MOS:LINK? Especially the subsections WP:LINKSTYLE and WP:SEAOFBLUE. Anyway, I try to explain in concise :-) See, if we want to link, let's say, a place called "Riverside, California", instead of linking to both [[Riverside]] and [[California]] separately, we should link to either [[Riverside, California]] directly or through a pipelink [[Riverside|Riverside, California]]. That's WP:LINKSTYLE in a nutshell.

According to WP:SEAOFBLUE, we shouldn't place separate wikilinks one next to another, but use a more specific one instead. For example, if we have three locations: "Upper East Side", "Manhattan", and "New York City", instead of linking to all three separately ([[Upper East Side]], [[Manhattan]], [[New York City]]), we should link to the most specific one, which is "Upper East Side" ([[Upper East Side|Upper East Side, Manhattan, New York]]) in this case. I know, that overlaps greatly with WP:LINKSTYLE. That was my own example though, and maybe not the best one. The manual of style uses [[Ireland|Irish]] [[Chess]] [[Champinship]] instead.

Anyway, I think the whole idea of those rules is to help the readers to distinguish between the relevant and the overtly-general ones, and enable carefully selected linking. For example, in the article Buer, [[Blessed are the Sick]] provides lots of information, whereas [[LP record|LP]] doesn't even discuss the theme, Buer. Well, that's just my own pondering though, but... :-)

I would be happy to answer any questions you might have though! Happy weekend and cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was somewhat aware of it, but I'm not familiar with exactly when to link. There is some information on the WP pages about it, but I see a lot of variety and deviation from these guidelines throughout Wikipedia and on many articles. I was worried that I was overlinking, but I didn't know what was alright. For example, I linked "grimoire" because even though I know what it is, others may not. I see that I did overlink, though, especially regarding the music portion. My bad. I tried to make sure my linking was specific, but that doesn't really help when I'm specifically linking to stuff which shouldn't be linked in the first place. I do notice that many, if not most, articles do link to separate articles adjacent to each other. For example, in the Tome of Magic article, Dungeons & Dragons and role-playing game are linked next to each other. Is this fine, since both links are deemed important and there is not a more specific article to link them both to? Or is this a problem someone should correct? This is my most recent edit to the article. Do you think that's fine? I didn't link Dungeons & Dragons because it is covered in the subsequent link, and isn't directly related to the article. I really appreciate your help, by the way. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:14, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let's move this here, as we're cluttering a public space with a one-on-one conversation.

Here's why removing all unnecessary spaces from a citation is a bad thing. It's about the number of opportunities for natural line breaks in the edit window. When there are no "extra" spaces, the software is more often forced to split a parameter value at the end of a line. This is usually a URL in |url= or |archiveurl=, because they are very long values with no imbedded spaces. URLs are less likely to be split at the end of a line if they are allowed to begin at the start of a line. A split URL is harder to read and to work with.

Just from observation, it seems many editors don't care about that issue, or about anything regarding coding of citations (or about anything regarding coding, as long as it works from the reader's perspective). This is the Whutever editing philosophy.

Those who care no doubt often come from the programming world, as I do, and they have varying ideas and personal preferences. The one I and some others subscribe to is one extra space before each pipe character, and no others. Thus (1) there will be an opportunity for a line break before each parameter, and (2) no parameter value will be separated from its parameter name. There will never be a line break between a parameter name and its preceding pipe character, which is in keeping with the output of the {{para}} template as in the second paragraph above.

There are other citation-related personal prefs as well, like whether to use |author= versus |first= and |last=. This one falls into the category of things that affect what the reader sees, and therefore should be consistent within an article. For these things, one's personal preference has no bearing except when they create an article and get to choose its local conventions.

Other personal prefs have no effect on what the reader sees, such as the choice between |newspaper=, |work=, and related parameters, and thus any need to go around "fixing" those things is mostly just an anal compulsion that is treatable with medications.

Although many of us have our personal preferences that we use when creating a citation, the experienced among us don't go around "fixing" these things on an article-wide basis, as that would imply that "my personal preferences are better than your personal preferences". I sometimes can't resist doing it with individual citations I'm already fixing, such as in this edit. I was converting |author= to the article's convention of |first= and |last=. But I couldn't help "fixing" some other things while I was at it.

So, in summary and generally speaking, unless something makes a real, practical difference, I try to leave it alone, as we have more than enough other insignificant things to battle over.

I seem to have become more verbose since you showed up. :) ―Mandruss ☎ 10:28, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was worried that our conversation on the article talk page may be straying out of what should be discussed on the talk page, seeing as a lot of it was you providing me with general help. Should we delete the discussions there, or just leave them? As for the matter of citing articles: shouldn't there be consistency on Wikipedia, though? I mean, I guess that's kind of what VE is trying to establish (and failing, since the numerous bugs and arbitrary formatting changes have led to significant dissent), but at this time there appears to be a lot of inconsistency, even among Featured or Good articles, when it comes to citations and the spacing and/or parameters therein. But perhaps one should not expect consistency in this area.

I would describe your post as informative and detailed, but not verbose. I just call myself "verbose" because I type a lot and usually submit multiparagraph responses—you know, that and almost everyone tells me I'm verbose. But anywho, don't fear "verbosity"! Embrace it, like I have! If you do, I can assure you that the number of users who respond to you will promptly diminish, and probably even cut in half. If you keep at it, you may even achieve the verbose singularity, where the only person reading your drivel is you! Joking aside, thanks for your responses. They have been both helpful and appreciated. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 16:40, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, just leave it and it will be archived in 4-5 days.

Site-wide consistency would be nice, but the community feels that per-article flexibility is important, that the article's editors are the best judges of what's appropriate for that article, and also there's a lot of resistance to being prescriptive about a lot of things. So a lot of the less-important things are "observe the article's existing conventions".

I don't think VE is trying to accomplish consistency in coding, it's just a lot simpler to program VE if you limit it to only one way of coding. VE is just about isolating the user from the code.

Re verbosity, long discussions get completely out of control very quickly, even when people aren't terribly verbose. where the only person reading your drivel is you! Joking aside - That's not a joke; see WP:TLDR. I confess to skipping large swaths of your comments at NPOVN; I seem to have an ADD problem that prevents me from staying focused that long. And many people just don't care to take the time. If you want to be read, try to be more be concise, although I understand it's not a trivial matter to change one's natural tendencies. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:55, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's problematic when the conventions of an article are either unclear or itself inconsistent, something I have noticed occur frequently. I don't think an official goal of VE is to establish some sort of consistency in the source code; however, I do think that may be an eventual byproduct of VE if it becomes popular enough (and actually works well without the occasional freezes and other bugs). It may also be an side-goal of the project, but that's just me speculating. On a side note, I highly recommend VE for general copyediting. Whenever you see me change all instances of curly quotes to straight quotes, or capitalize/decapitalize a certain term, or fix em-dash/en-dash consistency within an article, I use VE. Its "Find & Replace" function works great for this—you know, when it actually reads the article properly. In that respect, at least, I think VE is great. It's otherwise a very, very beta extension.

Believe it or not, I considered linking to WP:TL;DR and during my first draft of my response to you, I had linked it twice. Perhaps I should have linked it in my actual response to you, as well. I'm not surprised that you (or anyone else) skipped a lot of what I said on WP:NPOVN. I knew I was being lengthy at times, but I was expanding on my views in order to provide a more cogent argument overall. When reading the entire thread (a big task, but one I've done), I believe I fully covered every worthwhile, relevant point in multiple ways. Hence why I said, near the end, that the final multiparagraph post I made would be my last: I read the entire thread, reviewed my posts, and deemed that at that point, I'd be reiterating my argument, since I've exhausted all pertinent lines of thought. My argument had became "refer above". The problem with that position is that, unfortunately, almost nobody actually "refers above". In any case, I take solace in the fact that I made my argument to its fullest and most rigorously comprehensive extent. Whether anyone actually gives a shit is, well, up to them.

You may find this surprising, but many of my posts are me being as concise as I could. I usually read and reread my responses multiple times before submitting them, changing words to be more (or less) specific, rewording, adding or removing idioms, correcting grammar, removing irrelevant or tangential sentences, and even omitting entire paragraphs and arguments to store as a reserve for a future response, if needed. Sometimes, I delete entire paragraphs for the sake of brevity. For example, I looked over this response a couple times (and even considered showing the numerous changes via underlining and strikethroughs to illustrate my point) to make sure I wasn't being verbose.

The problem for me, I think, is that I am too detailed in my responses out of fear of being misunderstood (noted on WP:TL;DR, by the way). Rather than omitting what I consider to be important or essential information for the sake of brevity, I tend to expand on it. I've been known to break a sentence off from a paragraph to use it as the lead for a new one. I try to always paragraph my responses, however long they may be, and make sure that every paragraph has a leading sentence which summarizes or explains the following paragraph's contents. At least in this respect, I'm not that bad.

You're right, though; I should try to be more concise. I just fear that after reviewing my posts so many times and stripping away all unnecessary content, all that's left is valuable information I wish to convey. Maybe that's the problem, though: I want to convey more information than is necessary.

(TL;DR)  Summary: Following article conventions can be a problem when these conventions are hard to determine, especially when the convention is inconsistently applied in the article itself. I don't necessarily think that an official objective of VE is to establish consistency in the source code; however, this could be a byproduct of VE becomes widely used. As an aside, I really recommend VE for copyediting; it's "Find & Replace" tool is great. Believe it or not, I actually was going to add a link to WP:TL;DR in my original revision. I removed it, though, since I thought it was unnecessary. Perhaps I should have left one link in. I'm not surprised that you (or anyone else) skipped a lot of what I said on WP:NPOVN. I knew I was being lengthy, but I was trying to ensure my argument was as cogent as possible. I believe I achieved that, even at the expense of brevity. I'd like to point out, though, that my posts usually are as concise as I could make them. I do a lot of editing before submitting them. But yes, you're right; I do need to be more concise.

(I tried.) ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 17:54, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent summary! BTW, the wiki editor has find and replace, too. Click Advanced and look for the icon at the right end of the toolbar. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:26, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent perhaps, but lackluster to me. If I'm not building, I'm not making my point! As for the S&R, I am surprised that's there. That makes my editing so much easier when editing in source. Before, I've been doing S&R in VE, only to switch to source to finish up the technical work. At least when it comes to. copyediting, either could work for me. Thanks! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 05:03, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did you decide not to make links of citation parameters in the Scott article? I've lost touch with that. The last I recall is that I said it shouldn't be done with VE; is that why it was dropped? If you don't do that, I'll probably remove all existing such links, as the article should be consistent in that regard. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, I've just been busy, that's all. I can do that now, or in the next day or two, if you want. On the matter of VE: is the only problem here the spacing? if so, I've found it easy to simply do the edits in VE and edit in source afterward, replacing instances of " = " with "=". ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, VE also appears to stick quotes around the refname for any ref that it touches. And possibly other evil things that I'm not aware of. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:12, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I could remove those as well if needed. I personally don't see why that should be a problem, though. Help:Footnotes, in particular WP:REFNAMES, states that it's optional, but the quotes are probably there to make sure nothing breaks. They do serve a purpose, albeit they aren't always used. But eh, I don't mind using source to edit. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 00:04, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to compliment you on your clear and well written response there. Dougweller (talk) 09:05, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'm going to be submitting some more edits to the article in the hopes of resolving this issue. We'll see if it works. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 09:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See my proposal and feel free to weigh in. (concisely! ;) ―Mandruss ☎ 12:58, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a higher authority? Can I appeal to anyone? I feel like I'm being stonewalled because someone has a personal bias. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 21:13, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I made this its own section and added a title to it, but feel free to change it to whatever you think is most appropriate. As for your comments, not really. An RfC could be used to establish consensus when an ongoing dispute continues. Doing so may backfire, however, since the likely projects which would be alerted would be those listed on the talk page (Sociology, Human Rights, Discrimination, Women's History, and Feminism). If you try to call in support, that would pretty much be meatpuppetry. Of course, using an alternate account to fake consensus is sockpuppetry. The only thing you can do here is present your arguments in as rational, respectful, and cogent a manner as possible. It is up to your interlocutor(s), in this case other editors, to decide whether they're willing to change their minds or consider other opinions. If they do not, there's nothing you can really do. Although bias is a problem which conflicts with the very principles of Wikipedia, it's technically not something you can hold the person accountable for by means of administrative intervention.

We're all biased in our own way. The goal, then, is to work together to weed it out. If some refuse to participate in this sort of collaborative effort, then shame on them. Unless they're breaking a specific rule, police, or guideline, however, there's not much that can be done. The best advice I can give in the matter is to simply seek dispute resolution. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We regret to inform you that your color nomination, #347BFF/white, failed the WCAG AA contrast test for Normal Text and has been withdrawn. Please reply here if you have any questions. Thank you,―Mandruss ☎ 01:31, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requiescat in pace. At least I tried. (I still prefer the green ones anyway!) ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 01:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your objection in your edit summary here, please note that my edit summary clearly indicates that I reverted to your edit. I did not revert your edit, nor did I claim to. Please read the edit summary more carefully in future. Thanks.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:33, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that. It was late and I was up for 18 hours, so I was getting very tired. Apologies for that. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I misread your last edit, which was a dummy edit. My revert was unnecessary. Must learn to look closer. I and others generally begin dummy edit editsums with the link: dummy edit. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:13, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I usually add that tag at the beginning, but I forgot. Apologies! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Need your help with a test. Did you receive a ping from my talk page just before this? ―Mandruss ☎ 15:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so, Mandruss. At least, I didn't receive any notification about one. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, can you hang around for a few minutes for another test? ―Mandruss ☎ 21:40, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah sure. I'm up now, and I'll be available for numerous hours. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Did you just get a ping from my talk page? ―Mandruss ☎ 21:45, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can see it on your talk page, and I see that it should alert me, but the only notification I received was to your response here. My preferences do allow it so that Mentions alert me, so it's not that. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:49, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, that tells me what I wanted to know, and I'll try to explain. I already knew that a ping doesn't work unless a valid signature is added in the same edit. What I wasn't clear on was whether it could be fixed by re-editing and added only the signature. It appears the answer is no. For the ping to work, (1) The ping has to be formatted correctly and the username has to be exactly correct, including capitalization, and (2) a validly formatted signature has to be added in the same edit as that ping. If either is not the case, the only fix is to add a second valid ping and a second valid signature in the same edit, as if the first attempt didn't happen. Observing other editors' edits, it seems even many quite experienced editors don't understand this, and they're believing they have pinged someone when they have not. In some situations, that can be a non-trivial error. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:58, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if this was intentional. Even if so, if you think it could and should be fixed, perhaps you should propose it at the village pump (maybe phabricator?). Or is this just you testing to see for your own understanding? Either way, I don't mind. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:04, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just me testing to see for my own understanding. I wanted to know what is the easiest fix that works, for my own use. It's a known problem and it's significant enough that it would have been fixed if it was fixable. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:07, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, no problem. Glad to help! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:15, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Manual_of_Style#Linking "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader." Thanks for asking. See you on the wiki. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 02:49, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that, but I believe what the sentence is saying is that one should avoid linking within quotes as much as possible if it:

• clutters the quotation;
• violates the principle(s) of leaving quotations unchanged; and/or
• misleads or confuses the reader.

(Note that quotes can be changed for typographical conformity, to correct minor errors, clarify the quote, or omit "extraneous, irrelevant, or parenthetical words, and unintelligible speech".)

Am I incorrect in my interpretation? I was under the impression that linking for clarity is appropriate so long as it satisfies the criteria above, and does not misrepresent the quote. I don't think linking the economist to whom the quote in question is clearly referring is none of this. I see links within quotes frequently, too; It can be found in normal but prominent articles like Racism and Sexism, featured articles like Rosewood massacre and Nature fakers controversy, and lesser known articles like Black Lives Matter. I just chose these at random. Should all links in quotes be removed in these as well?

If I am mistaken, please do correct me. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 03:20, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would stick with putting explanatory use of wikilinking in article text, only, as a general practice, and let quotations be verbatim without wikilinking. That's what is consistently most helpful in the articles I watch most closely. And that's how I read the rule quoted above about quotations from the Manual of style. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 12:47, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What should be done about the other articles, then? Should something be done about them? As precisionist as I may be, I doubt this particular rule qualifies as reasonably deserving inconsistency. On a related note, there appears to be discussion of this in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. Perhaps you and I can chime in there, or continue the discussion as a matter of policy and not just personal editing differences? If not, that's fine. I might respond, though, since I'm interested in this matter now. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:51, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the way I would relate this to the precisionist approach is to reserve wikilinks to blocks of text created by Wikipedians, and leave blocks of text created by external authors who are directly quoted without wikilinks. That's what I do as I update articles with high numbers of page views to good article status. I'm glad to be informed of the ongoing Manual of style discussion, although I think I will be busy with other things (including a new Edit-a-thon) that will keep me too busy to join in there. Thanks for your further comments. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 15:22, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure thing. If you have the time, I recommend checking out the discussion on the talk page, if only to read the comments. There has already been one thoughtful reply, and I've added my opinion in as well. I won't revert your changes to the article, though I really think that economist fellow should be linked somewhere in the article, since he appears to be relevant to the contents. Have a great day! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 15:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Red Slash said: "it's been widely reported and everyone will want to know it."

When a closer sees the words "everyone will want to know it", I think he will ignore Red Slash's !vote, as Wikipedia editing has very little to do with giving readers what they want to know. Tabloids give readers what they want to know. know. Besides, people who want to know it will find it in the body, so what does that have to do with the lead? Maybe Red Slash didn't mean it the way it sounded, but I don't see how it could be in any way connected to policy or established editing principles. I'd suggest not adding clutter responding to clearly incompetent !votes. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, if you say so. Thanks for the advice. Also, I think I may have made a mistake with threading discussions in the !voting area. Should I move all those discussions to the Threaded Discussions section? I can do that real quick. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 10:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Matter of opinion, but I'm for allowing some replying to !voting, and moving to Threaded when the number or total length of replies exceeds some threshold that's also a matter of opinion. I think we're fine at this point, but I'm not suggesting I should be the only one making the decisions. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:05, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm completely fine with that suggestion as well. Perhaps over 5 replies from at least two other people qualifies as moving it? If I, for some reason, have to build, I'll immediately take it to the Threaded Discussion section. In any case, I support that decision. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on length of replies as well as number. One reply could be too much (e.g., one of your essays!), while three could be ok. I think I'd move 5 regardless of length. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:20, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, that as well. I just usually don't see people post lengthy responses like I do, so I'd assume it'll be an infrequent occurrence. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:22, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You've already found one supporter at Ayers Rock. CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 06:15, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad. I've responded in the talk page already. Although you appear to have given your approval, it doesn't seem that you have explicated your opinion on my suggestions. Do you personally approve and support it? Or do you still have problems with it? If the latter, perhaps I can remedy it in further edits. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 07:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Nøkkenbuer. You asked a couple questions during this discussion on @Guy Macon:'s Talk page which I never got around to answering. I didn't intend to be rude; I was waiting to see if similar discussion would arise at the RfC and didn't want to duplicate the conversation. Anyway, you wondered "why you claim that Christian atheism is considered a religion, since I see no mention of it as such in the Wikipedia article". When I said Christian atheism is indeed categorized as a religion, I was referring to the Wikipedia category link at the bottom of that article: Christianity and other religions. Since the article does explain that Christian atheists still adhere to other 'beliefs', just not the one about the existence of a God (or in some cases, believe that God has died), I think the categorization is valid. It can also be described as a "theological position", but the two definitions are not mutually exclusive. When I referred to your assertion about "irreligious but still otherwise adheres to Christianity" being nonsensical because adherence to Christian beliefs is the definition of religious, you responded: "it's as nonsensical as Christian atheism or Cultural Christian. It simply implies that someone adheres to Christian principles, beliefs, or culture, but rejects the religion and its institution. It's not extremely common, but it occurs." I think, perhaps, the examples you've picked do not support your assertion as well as you have hoped. A Christian atheist is still religious, while a Cultural Christian is not (according to our articles on each). Adherence to Christian beliefs does indeed mean religious, so my point that when you say someone adheres to Christian beliefs "but rejects the religion" is nonsensical, it is rather evident. I think much of the confusion, and the core of the disagreement, stems from your position that atheism is a form of irreligiousness, while my understanding of atheism is that it specifically relates only to belief in deities, and otherwise has no bearing on a person's religiousness. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 17:21, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry, I didn't take offense at any point. I appreciated your voicing your concerns, even though I didn't completely agree with them. What matters just as much as the intended message is the received one; if my intended message is not properly received, the former is undermined by the latter event.

The reason why I wouldn't categorize Christian atheists as adhering to a religion is because I don't believe Christian atheism fits the definition and criteria of "religion". Religions typically require some component of faith, and entails doctrines or dogma to which followers are expected to adhere. Christian atheism may have a set of common or core beliefs, but it does not operate as a religion. From my understanding, there is no organized institution for Christian atheism, nor are there any qualifying tenets to which must adhere to be accepted as a Christian atheist. There is no recognized body or community of such individuals who identify as a group, either globally or in some spiritual capacity, to do any such accepting, nor are there any churches or community centers wherein Christian atheists gather. Just because a certain ideology or view adheres to a set of discernible beliefs, that doesn't qualify it as a religion. They are as much a religion as is capitalism, in my opinion, and I don't see any reason to consider either a religion. As for the article category, I'd say it is misplaced or at least poorly worded. It should say "Christianity and related beliefs" if it wishes to classify Christian atheism and like groups as categorically related to Christianity.

You're certainly right that "religion" and "theological position" are not mutually exclusive terms. In fact, religion is the organized and codified manifestation of a theological position with accompanying beliefs which explain the world, justify certain conduct, and serve as a guide for future conduct. These in turn can then proliferate into many through schism and reform. I would classify Christian atheism as solely a theological position, however, but not a religion. What defines religiosity, in my opinion, is both adherence to a particular religion's beliefs, doctrines, and tenets; and an identification with, or adherence to, the organizational body which governs the religion. Being an irreligious Christian is basically being a Christian renegade, someone who has alienated themselves from the Church and rejects the authority of the Church. Although it is uncommon from my understanding, irreligious Christians do exist. What defines Christian religiosity is identification with, or adherence, to the Church. This is different from a nonpracticing or nonobservant Christian in that the latter only fails to perform the religious duties expected from their religion; meanwhile, an irreligious Christian rejects these duties altogether and the organized body which perpetuates them.

The current article on Christian atheism does not support the claim that it is religious with the singular exception of its (in my opinion, misplaced) categorization as among "Christianity and other religions". If anything, I'd say that the article indicates that Christian atheists are irreligious, even more so than cultural Christians, the latter of whom still practices certain religious customs out of cultural identification. Even by our article on religion, I don't see how Christian atheism qualifies as a religion. Christian atheism is not a "world view that relates humanity to an order of existence". It possesses no "narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe", nor does it exhibit "organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures". It does not "include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration (of a deity, gods, or goddesses), sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trances, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture", nor does it "contain mythology". Christian atheism is a form of atheism with an appended set of beliefs which consider Jesus Christ as a model of virtue, and which may retain some aspects of Christianity. Again, I don't see why you would classify it as a religion.

You are correct that I belief that atheism is a form of irreligiosity. I don't consider it exclusively a form of irreligiosity or type of irreligion, though. Atheism is a theological position which describes a set of beliefs regarding the existence of a deity or deities. Both religious and irreligious people can be atheists; I consider Christian atheism to be in the latter category because I do not believe it qualifies as a religion. In that respect, I coincide with your definition, but you are also incorrect in your understanding of how I define atheism. I apologize for the misunderstanding, however, since I believe it may have been caused by my wording.

If you disagree, feel free to express your disagreement here. I'm glad to continue this discussion, if you so wish it, and I am fully willing to admit to erring if you convince me of my error. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 13:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They are as much a religion as is capitalism ... I'm quite convinced that capitalism is a religion; the state is the Church and Wall Street is its Mecca. We all must follow capitalist teachings dutifully, lest we be consigned to a life of hell on this very earth. Indeed, the Church will actively persecute any and all denouncers of the faith. Come to think of it, capitalism is the only religion with consequences - a supra-religion? [Apologies for the interlude; I'll show myself out.] Alakzi (talk) 14:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, and the Charging Bull is our God, whereas Marx is the Devil. You have irrefutably refuted my audacious claim that capitalism is not a religion, potential stalker, and I admit unconditional defeat. Alas, if only I saw sooner! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 14:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

:-) I feel a little sorry for the admin who's gonna have to close that RfC. Alakzi (talk) 15:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hey now, I'm not that verbose! I'm just... thorough. Right? But yes, may mercy be upon the admin who must close it, and may integrity be his or her cardinal virtue so that he/she doesn't skip over my responses. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 15:57, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re your edit summary here (and subsequent edits): That was me. In my summary I linked to pages that hopefully explain why, but it’s because that isn’t paragraph spacing, at least not so far as the wiki software and web browsers are concerned. We use colons to indent replies, but it’s actually a form of list, like * or # lists. Blank lines between items cause them to be rendered as multiple separated lists (rather than multiple items in the same list). For instance, one such break in one of your comments generates the following HTML:

… far more difficult than expected.</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
</dd>
</dl>
<dl>
<dd>
<dl>
<dd>
<dl>
<dd>
<dl>
<dd>
<dl>
<dd>Similarly, we should specify …

This can be problematic, and particularly disorienting for users of screen readers that read out each list opening and closing. So that’s why I made that edit. Hope that all makes sense! —174.141.182.82 (talk) 00:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not sure if that's an appropriate edit to make, though. And by that I mean I legitimately don't know. Some people may object to it, however, especially since the alternative is such a pain. Should I not be paragraphing in the way I have been, then? Should I not place an empty space between my paragraphs for readability? What do you think? ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 00:20, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You could simply begin each indented paragraph with a <p> (paragraph) tag, which should give you the same spacing you’re looking for.

Like so.

But personally, I would use:

::::… blah blah blah. {{pb}} <!--

-->Lorem ipsum …

That’s {{pb}} for the reader’s readability (it does

this), and the commented-out blank line for my own if needed. Both methods produce much cleaner code, but this one also keeps my whole comment in a single list item so it doesn’t read as multiple comments. But really, wikimarkup is just kinda bad for how we’ve come to use Talk pages.

As for appropriateness, WP:TPO says that fixing formatting errors is okay. This is definitely a formatting error, and one that’s potentially disruptive to some users. At any rate, thanks for hearing me out! —174.141.182.82 (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks! I'll be sure to use {{pb}} from hereon out. Have a great day! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 16:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please see the draft for conscription I have posted under Alright Then in Talk:Sexism. The working version is available on my sandbox if you want to join us on editing it. There's no reason for multiple people to be working on multiple forks from the same first draft. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 00:36, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I might later, after I've had some sleep. Note that I may make significant edits and delete or reword a lot of stuff. Afterward, you can either revert it if you think you should, or work off it from there. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 00:43, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Sorry for putting this on your talk. I didn't realize we had also discussed it on Talk:Sexism.

Sup. From the looks of your userpage, you might be from a scandinavian country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JKruger13 (talk • contribs) 22:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not surprised, since my name comes from both Scandinavian and Germanic lore. Sorry to disappoint, but I am unfortunately from neither, though my heritage my be. I actually live in Texas, USA. What's up? ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) HAH! I thought you are from Norway or Denmark :-D I'm from Finland myself, and it's funny how people usually mistake my country for Scandinavia. Well, we have mingled with the Scandinavians for almost 1 000 years though. Seems there is a own section dedicate to that at Scandinavia#Finland. That's the case also with Iceland, although the Finns have no Scandinavian heritage whereas the Icelanders do. There is also a specific geographic term that covers Finland as well, that is, Fennoscandia. :-P Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh how I wish it were so! I've always wanted to live in the Nordic north. Interesting tidbits of information, by the way. Why don't Finns have Scandinavian heritage? That seems strange to me, seeing how close they are to Scandinavia. It appears Finland is considered to be among the Scandinavians as well. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 15:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

. JKruger13 (talk) 15:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

TL;DR ... [1] maybe you can try and be a bit more concise? - Cwobeel (talk) 01:00, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any suggestions for accomplishing this? Every time I post, I read over what I typed and make numerous edits. A lot of the time, what I post is the concise version. I make sure every response has as much substance per word as possible, and I omit most to all unnecessary material. My response are long, yes, but they're thorough. If you have any specific recommendations I could use, though, I'd appreciate it. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 06:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As a fellow Wikipedian who has frequently found the elusive teal deer nibbling at the edges of my longer posts (I've lost track of how many of these deer I've attracted thus far), I think you have little about which to worry. I've read some of your longer contributions recently, and I don't think you've been unnecessarily verbose at all — it's just that the subject matter has been, well, complicated. I've found your explanations to be easy to read, your responses methodically structured, and your vocabulary more than adept and suitable for the topics under discussion. I still find myself in disagreement with you on some things (specifically two topics: "Tyson on Philosophy" and "atheism in the Religion: field"), but at least I can be confident that those disagreements are over the substance of our respective positions, and not due to any failure on your part to convey your positions. Kind regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 21:16, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article has now been re-edited by me, and I believe its structure is better than it was here when you called attention to its unconventional nature at the article's talkpage. In subsequent discussions there I largely supported your position and agreed with the argument that we should be using FA music articles as our models for improving Ayers Rock (band). I would like to thank you for your contributions to that discussion and hope that you are pleased by its current structure.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate it and apologies for the absence. I've been busy with personal issues and the like. The new structure is an improvement, but since it doesn't conform to how the FA articles do with there being a single History section and the two "eras" falling under their separate own subsections therein, I'm concerned this issue will be raised again sometime in the future once it's scrutinized for GA or FA status. In any case, I think it's better now. Thanks! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 18:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are being contacted because of your participation in the proposal to create a style noticeboard. An alternate solution, the full or partial endorsement of the style Q&A currently performed at WT:MoS, is now under discussion at the Village Pump. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:33, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is an RfC that you may be interested in at Template talk:Infobox country#RfC: Religion in infoboxes of nations. Please join us and help us to determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your recent edit on the lead section of the Dog intelligence page, the sentence that you deleted was neither uncited nor irrelevant - it was in the text of the article with its citation and it was in context with the previous sentences, and it is a direct quote. You might acquaint yourself with WP:CITELEAD as citation is not required in the lead.William Harris • talk • 09:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for the mistake. I was doing some quick editing and didn't see it in the main body. Thanks for reverting it. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 19:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nøkkenbuer, it is an easy enough mistake to make, I am usually quite harsh on uncited and controversial material myself, Wikipedia's policies are not always easy to find and sometimes I disagree with them. If you can make this error so can others. Therefore, I have rewritten and cited that sentence in the lead paragraph. If I am unhappy with a piece of writing I post this at the end of the sentence:^{[citation needed]} Then I give whoever may have written it a month to either provide a citation or it is deleted, or amended by something with a citation.

Please bear in mind that if you want to talk back to someone from your home page, you must call them using their user name (copy-n-paste it from their signature in edit mode) e.g.(look at this in edit mode):

Hi William Harris,.....

Wikipedia will then deliver them a message telling them where their name was mentioned and provides them with a link back to here. I just happened to drop by to see if you had read my message. Happy editing! William Harris • talk • 09:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! You too, William Harris! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 03:06, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Got your message - nicely done :-)

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:Notifications#Triggering events/Mentions and MW:Manual:Echo#Technical details, your edit here probably didn't notify Hgilbert. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 09:56, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know, Jim1138. I'm still getting used to talk page discussions, so I sometimes forget about these things. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 21:18, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of need a notification sent popup. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 23:08, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is an RfC at Template talk:Infobox#RfC: Religion in infoboxes concerning what should be allowed in the religion entry in infoboxes. Please join the discussion and help us to arrive at a consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted some of your edits to this article, specifically the use of brackets around ellipses. Please see the manual of style. Cheers! 🖖ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 00:27, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your concern; however, according to the MoS section on ellipses, bracketed ellipses are "optionally" permitted "for precision", usually "to make it clear that the ellipsis is not itself quoted". There is no recommendation against doing so and, in fact, I think that may have been where I got the idea. For the sake of precision, and especially since ellipses are sometimes used by the author of the text being quoted, I usually bracket any added ellipses I can find in an article (where appropriate) when performing my usual minor cleanups. This is the first time my edits have been reverted for this reason, so I might as well ask you: do you recommend that I cease bracketing ellipses as part of my usual minor cleanups? And if so, should I go back and revert those changes on previous articles I've edited (which may number in the hundreds)? Thanks for your time. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 01:10, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

True, brackets are optional; however, that's prefaced by "An ellipsis does not normally need square brackets around it, because its function is usually obvious—especially if the guidelines above are followed." As for the precision you note above, "this is usually only necessary if the quoted passage also uses three periods in it to indicate a pause or suspension." Would I recommend you not add them any more? Yes. Would I suggest you revert the ones you've done? No. 🖖ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 01:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While I don't dispute the language of the MoS section, I personally interpret it as merely commentary on when bracketed ellipses is necessary and why it's permissible to not do so, not a style recommendation that editors must follow. Nevertheless, I'm fine with the reversion and it would be incredibly pedantic of me to dispute it. I'm already pedantic enough as it is! Thanks for restoring my other changes I made after reverting my edit, ATinySliver, and have a great rest of the day / night! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 03:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And you as well. 🖖ATinySliver/^ATalkPage 04:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Kurt Metzger, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Ugly Americans. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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Just letting you know, I have completed the page swap that you requested :) —Frosty ☃ 12:06, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it's much appreciated, Frosty! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 18:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is to inform you that an attempt is being made to overturn an RfC that you voted on (2 RfCs, actually, one less than six months ago and another a year ago). The new RfC is at:

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Allow private schools to be characterized as non-affiliated as well as religious, in infobox?

Specifically, it asks that "religion = none" be allowed in the infobox.

The first RfC that this new RfC is trying to overturn is:

• 15 June 2015 RfC: RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

The result of that RfC was "unambiguously in favour of omitting the parameter altogether for 'none' " and despite the RfC title, additionally found that "There's no obvious reason why this would not apply to historical or fictional characters, institutions etc.", and that nonreligions listed in the religion entry should be removed when found "in any article".

The second RfC that this new RfC is trying to overturn is:

• 31 December 2015 RfC: RfC: Religion in infoboxes.

The result of that RfC was that the "in all Wikipedia articles, without exception, nonreligions should not be listed in the Religion= parameter of the infobox.".

Note: I am informing everyone who commented on the above RfCs, whether they supported or opposed the final consensus. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Nøkkenbuer. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

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Sorry, I don't know what kittens are for, but I just wanted to let you know that I really like your comments on Talk:John_A._McDougall ! Well-reasoned, detailed, calm, and professional, even in the face of angry editors!

Sjb0926 (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Sjb0926! I have largely discontinued my activities on Wikipedia, especially given how discouraged I was after that whole fiasco. I see little benefit in trying to constructively address what I understand to be issues with Wikipedia articles, Wikipedian culture, and Wikipedia generally if the overwhelming response is hostility, defiance, and libelous impugnations. I am not interesting in power play nor in sheer eristic, but in dialectic synthesis among my peers. My dialectics may be eristic, too, but they are nonetheless predicated on constructive cooperation. That sentiment, particularly the latter, seems to be lacking among many of those with whom I have interacted.

It is disappointing that it seems nothing has changed on that talkpage since then; the same characters are still strong-arming the false consensus. Nonetheless, I appreciate your appreciation! I hope against hope that whatever future experiences you might have on Wikipedia will be nothing like mine have been, which is perhaps the greatest wellness I can wish given the circumstances. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 09:50, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Veganism Talk page, as this is not about veganism. --Zefr (talk) 20:21, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Zefr, I noticed that you did some editing to the NIH reference on Vitamin B12. I was the one who filled out that citation and made the changes you seem to have partially reverted, so I am naturally curious about your rationale. Was my edit, or at least the parts which you reverted, inappropriate and why if so?

Just to clarify, I added the archive as part of my usual citation cleanup to prevent link rot and preserve a snapshot of the cited material to ensure that changes in the source itself do not accidentally undermine the point of its citation in the article. I added the author parameter per my interpretation of the template documentation at Cite web § Authors and § Publisher and because I have never seen the publisher parameter defined in that way in any citation I have encountered. My addition of access-date is for obvious reasons; I understand that it might not be required for this particular source, as may be the case with webpage archival, but I consider it good practice to include anyway. Do you believe I am mistaken about any of the aforementioned? Is there some precedent or policy about which I am not aware?

I am not disputing your edit so much as I am asking for clarification. Of course, I prefer the content of my edit be retained, but I might as well ask for your opinion here rather than just revert it. I also understand that this may seem like a rather minor issue, but this is typical editing behavior on my part, both generally and within this particular article (see my other citation edits). As a result, this minor issue actually has significant importance about the citation style in this article, especially since I have cleaned up and filled out multiple citations in this way and intend to do so with others. If you take issue with such edits, as you seem to have done here, then perhaps you could inform me about why I should change my editing behavior. Thanks for your time. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 06:00, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nøkkenbuer: Simply, the cleanup edits I made were 1) the ODS is a non-person department of NIH, and therefore illogical to identify it as the "author", 2) the URL is updated regularly by the ODS-NIH source (most recently as shown, 11 February 2016), so did not seem a link rot issue to me, thereby not needing an archive URL, and 3) the accessdate was fine and could be reinstated. --Zefr (talk) 14:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the input, Zefr. Specifically, my rationale for defining the ODS as the author beyond the aforementioned is because the documentation specifies it is appropriate "to hold the name of a corporate author", which I took to mean that non-person entities are allowed (unless I misunderstand what is meant by "corporate author"). Do you disagree? If so, then given you described it as a "department" (and since this was my second choice), do you think the ODS might be better placed under department, despite being left undefined in the Cite web documentation? There is a brief definition in Cite news § Periodical, which is almost certainly applicable in Cite web, but that doesn't provide much clarity either. Would that be better in your opinion? As for archival, is there any issue with including it anyway despite perhaps not being necessary? I fail to understand why, as a general practice, one should ever exclude archival so long as there are not specific reasons for doing so, especially since WP:LR states that (my emphasis) "[e]ditors are encouraged to add an archive link as a part of each citation".

Lastly, more generally, do you take any issue with me otherwise filling the citations in this article as I have been? If so, and you suspect more reversions will be likely, then some attempt at addressing it now might be appropriate. If not, then after whatever decision is made about this particular citation, I will just proceed with my usual editing. Naturally, my questions are not just about this specific citation, but about this issue as a basis for informing better editing practice overall, so I hope you do not take this is just pedantry on my part. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 17:37, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1) I don't think ODS would be a "corporate author", as that would define an official writing something on behalf of a company - not the case for the unknown ODS author; 2) I removed the archive URL because it is unnecessary when the government source, NIH, is known to update its publications regularly; I felt this was more a matter of keeping the WP code minimized and clean. As this seems to be an area where you work, you should proceed as normal, and I will not interfere. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 20:21, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I anticipated that the discussion would lead to some wonky exposition, and considered just posting on your talkpage instead, Zefr. After reviewing the pertinent policies and guidelines, however, I decided that it technically is about the article, so I might as well start there. In any case, thanks for moving it here.

I don't think ODS would be either, I just conjectured that the statement of "corporate author" would be an example to illustrate that non-person entities are allowed. It's not really important, though; I was just curious about whether you could help clarify this policy for me. I understand now that author is at best a dubious parameter for something like the ODS and that, upon retrospect, department would have been better if it is added anywhere outside publisher at all. I only opted for the former since it was more common, it seemed to qualify, and the latter was even less clearly defined.

As for the archival parameters, I would still retain them in this instance (and almost any other instance) because I consider an archived copy of the exact page that was used for the citation to be more important than excluding the information on the basis of code minimization. Given that you seem to disagree, though, and favor the latter over the former, I will just leave the citation as it currently is (after readding the access-date). I have no interest in disputing this just to make a point and risk it being mistaken as POINTy, and I recognize that this NIH article will probably not be going anywhere for the rest of Wikipedia's life. Whether this particular citation lacks it does not matter much at this time, so I'll just drop it.

Again, I appreciate your input. Have a great day! ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 22:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have started the draft here :) Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, EtienneDolet! Sorry about the absence; I have been busy with other matters. Fortunately, there is no rush, so I hope you are okay with my contributions being sporadic and a bit slow. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 04:47, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Like Anarchism, Wikipedia is voluntary labor :) Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quick question: do we have to have that long quote for 2nd citation? Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:47, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not necessary and many Featured Articles do not quote so extensively, Étienne Dolet, but it is something I tend to include anyway just to give some context and provide a relevant excerpt from the article which is pertinent to the article text its citation is intended to support. Moreover, I noticed that some of the text that I omitted from your original draft included content from that exact paragraph. In order to include that content without having it occupy space in the main article, I thought it might be worthwhile to include as quote in the citation. I understand that it may be superfluous; I just add it so that readers understand the context without having to actually read the whole article. If you think it is excessive and do not care to include it, I have no issue with its omission. I will leave it entirely up to you. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 12:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Generally we stay away from these journals as there have been concerns raised about them. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:38, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you moving my edit's content to the talk page and informing me here, Doc James. If you don't mind me asking, though, has there been any previous consensus on usage of the Frontiers journals? I assume so, given your comment and edit reversion. For example, are there any policies or guidelines or other such documentation about it? I am asking because I am genuinely curious and would like to be informed about them to better understand the current status of using the Frontiers journals in citations. Moreover, since you are obviously among the most experienced Wikipedians, especially in WP:MEDRS but almost certainly in WP:PG generally, you would probably be the one to ask. I am not aware of any and had I known about any such recommendations, I probably would not have bothered to include the journals at all.

To briefly explain the rationale for my edit: I checked the Asperger syndrome and Autism talk page archives and found almost no mention of the journals nor the "intense world" theory, none of which suggested any consensus nor even significant discussion on the matter. I also checked the WP:MEDRS and WP:FRINGE talk page archives and even did global advanced searches for both the journals and "intense world", none of which provided much help. Given that the journals have been occasionally cited, and lacking any indication that I am violating any previous consensus on the matter, I decided to proceed with my edit.

Thank you for your time and for any elucidation you can provide me on this matter. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 17:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We discuss concerns around predatory journals Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#Predatory_journals and than provide a list here. This makes me hesitant.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:02, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(TL;DR at bottom) I was aware of Beall's inclusion of the Frontiers journals in his predatory journals list, Doc James, but decided to proceed anyway because:

• the aforementioned citations in other articles;
• the qualifications Beall used to describe his own list were "potential, possible, or probable" and no indication of likelihood was given on any of the listed items, which I found to be unhelpful, especially given the scope of "possible" and "potential";
• the aforementioned list by Beall is the opinion of one person (albeit a scholarly one) whose claims do not appear to be supported by much of any explicated rationale or evidence, especially with regard to Frontiers journals;
• the aforementioned list is also controversial and criticized as unfair, particularly to open-access publishers, of which Beall is a well-known critic;
• my attempts at finding sources describing (or criticizing) the status of Frontiers as "predatory" did not yield much and that yield was rather mixed, overall inconclusive, and primarily consisted of blog posts (1, 2 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11);
• despite the alleged problems of Frontiers Media, including with its peer review process and internal policies, I erred on the side of including the content due to the aforementioned factors leading me to conclude that the Frontiers journals are problematic, but I hestitate to consider them predatory;
• those two particular scientific articles have been cited hundreds of times each, including in what appear to be well-established and reputable (or otherwise non-predatory) journals such as Nature, Neuron, Molecular Psychiatry, Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, Journal of Neurophysiology, Biological Psychiatry, PLoS One, Brain and Cognition, and Cerebral Cortex, among others (many seem to merely be citations, but most are paywalled and thus cannot be checked by me), at least according to Google Scholar; and,
• the "intense worlds" theory is a notable hypothesis for autism and Asperger syndrome that has received significant media coverage (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, and 14, among many others) and thus deserves a duly-weighted inclusion in Wikipedia, albeit not necessarily in the Asperger syndrome article (maybe its own article?).

I agree that there appear to be problems with Frontiers Media, but I would consider it more of a borderline case before I would treat it as an outright predatory publisher. I take the same position with the Hindawi Publishing Corporation, which I understand has similar issues.

Given that you are "hesitant" to include the Frontiers journals as sources, do you therefore discourage citing them on any on Wikipedia articles or just the Asperger syndrome article? If the latter, then is this because the "intense world" theory originates from those journals and their founders, or is this just because a Frontiers journal is the only supporting source for the paragraph under discussion? If the latter, then would you be willing to reconsider inclusion, perhaps excluding those sources, so long as more acceptable sources are found? Moreover, would you oppose the inclusion of the "intense world" theory, including or excluding the Frontiers journals citations, on the Autism article? Lastly, regardless of your opinion of the Frontiers journals, do you oppose inclusion of the two specific citations in question, whether in the Asperger syndrome article or elsewhere?

I understand that I am asking a lot of questions (including conditional ones), but I am trying to ensure I understand your position on this matter so that I know how to best proceed. For example, if you discourage citing Frontiers journals full stop, then I will take that into serious consideration if I ever encounter a situation in which one of the journals would be cited, either in one of my edits or already within an article. If this has more to do with the fact that they are the (only) sources cited, however, then I can search for others. Alternatively, if this has to do with Asperger syndrome being a featured article, or the "intense world" theory being inappropriate for the article, then perhaps I can include the content in another article. Lastly, if you simply object to the citation of the Frontiers journals in general, but accept these two specific citations as exceptions in this circumstance, then I'm not sure what specific issue you have with my edit and would naturally suggest reinstating it.

As a final note, I have no issue with you moving this discussion to the Talk:Asperger syndrome page per WP:TPTHREAD if you so wish. I will leave that up to you. Thank you again for your time.

(TL;DR) I understand that you are probably a very busy person and that I am definitely a very hypergraphic one (casually speaking), so I will try to summarize: I acknowledge that the anonymous continuation of Beall's list includes Frontiers Media as a "potentially predatory publisher" and likewise sympathize with your hestitation about using its journals. Nonetheless, I decided to proceed for a variety of reasons, including my conclusion that Frontiers journals were inconclusively predatory, my concerns with Beall's classification of them as such, the frequency with which those two specific scientific articles were cited in academic research, and the general notability of both the articles in particular and the "intense world" theory overall. Beyond the fact that a Frontiers journal was cited, what are your specific concerns about my edit? Under which conditions would you support its inclusion? Or is this a non-starter? Feel free to move this discussion to Talk:Asperger syndrome at your discretion. Thanks. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 01:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Probably best to get the input of the wider community. Have started a discussion here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:19, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your willingness to discuss this matter with me, the time you have taken to do so, and the patience you have given me in the process, Doc James. I have already replied in that discussion and look forward to that input. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 04:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well... I concur ;-)

It is true that increase in intra ocular pressure can cause vision loss. However that is also a "logical" elaboration... Which I did call sophism; sorry about it.

That kind of statement is of nature to instigate fear; and in the case of the given article, it might never happen.

Indeed the intraocular pressure increase is in the range of normal variation [actually it might be variation between individuals, and not variation in time, so I might be wrong on that point, I'm not a doctor].

So, even though I do share the opinion it is a bad thing, I believe it is an overstatement to say it can lead to vision loss in that specific circumstance.

I believe that a specific source, pointing to actual vision loss, in that specific circumstance, would be required: like, does an increase of 2.79 mm Hg, sustained in time, would lead to significant vision reduction. Does the 2.79 mm Hg persist in time? How long? Would several consecutive injection lead to cumulative effect? Those are to be assessed by further investigations IMO.

Feel free to revert my change. I like the idea that gluco-corticoid II injection should be dealt with utter care. However I fear that overstatement could compromise the overall credibility of the article.

Best, Chris