Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
Dennis Brown (talk | contribs) →Result concerning MarkBernstein: no action |
Brustopher (talk | contribs) →Statement by (username): an attempt to solve this |
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To be clear, having a strong opinion about these things isn’t the problem; almost everyone has opinions on this topic. The problem is that he has repeated the exact same arguments, over and over, with virtually no change, for nearly a year. The frustration visible in MarkBernstein’s edits has to be understood in light of that; many of the arguments he’s responding to there are ones that Masem has repeated over and over and over again on that talk page. I can only assume that Masem is frustrated as well (since he clearly ''believes'' the arguments he's putting forward, and has spent so much time and text repeating them while getting nowhere), but simply repeating them over and over for ''nearly a year'' is not a solution and has made the talk page a sometimes-frustrating place to deal with. I feel that that is, overall, a more serious problem on the talk page than the relatively mild comments he linked to above. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 08:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
To be clear, having a strong opinion about these things isn’t the problem; almost everyone has opinions on this topic. The problem is that he has repeated the exact same arguments, over and over, with virtually no change, for nearly a year. The frustration visible in MarkBernstein’s edits has to be understood in light of that; many of the arguments he’s responding to there are ones that Masem has repeated over and over and over again on that talk page. I can only assume that Masem is frustrated as well (since he clearly ''believes'' the arguments he's putting forward, and has spent so much time and text repeating them while getting nowhere), but simply repeating them over and over for ''nearly a year'' is not a solution and has made the talk page a sometimes-frustrating place to deal with. I feel that that is, overall, a more serious problem on the talk page than the relatively mild comments he linked to above. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] ([[User talk:Aquillion|talk]]) 08:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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====Statement by Brustopher==== |
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After a lot of thinking I have come up with a solution which I think will satisfy no one but deal with all of the concerns addressed here: |
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#The following editing restriction is placed on Masem: "Masem may only edit [[Talk:Gamergate controversy]] to, 1. propose a specific change to the article, 2. oppose/support a change proposed by another editor 3. remove obvious vandalism or BLP violations." The main problem with Masem's comments on the talk page is that they're often theoretical discussions of wikipolicy that go nowhere. This restriction will help counteract this problem. |
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#MarkBernstein is banned from interacting with Masem. If you dig up the diffs from this request, Masem's previous request and MarkBernstein's original request against Masem on the [[WP:GS/GG/E]] page there is probably enough evidence to support this. While it's mostly been minor stuff, it's been minor stuff over a long period of time. |
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#Working on number 3/placeholder for any order concerns raised/an attempt to deal with offsite issues |
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Thoughts? [[User:Brustopher|Brustopher]] ([[User Talk:Brustopher|talk]]) 11:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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====Statement by (username)==== |
====Statement by (username)==== |
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Revision as of 11:39, 31 August 2015
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Dukisuzuki
Blocked indefinitely (non-AE) by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs). T. Canens (talk) 04:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dukisuzuki
Edit warring, personal attacks and battleground attitude on the article on Meša Selimović
The "notice" refers to the big notice on top of the talk page which states: "By a long-standing consensus, and a Wikipedia guideline, Selimović is defined as a "Yugoslav writer" in the lead section, as his (disputed) ethnic affiliation is not directly relevant for his notability as a writer. Please review the talk page archives for endless debates on the subject before starting a new one." I pointed this out to Dukisuzuki and this is his response. But ok, these edits were made before Dukisuzuki received a discretionary sanctions warning yet. I gave it here [1], on August 18. Dukisuzuki kept on edit warring on the article, kept removing my comment from the talk page, and kept reposting his "I don't give a shit..." comment: Talk page: Continued edit warring against multiple users AFTER Dukisuzuki was made aware of the notice on top of the talk page and AFTER they were given a discretionary sanction notification:
I should note that Dukisuzuki has continued to engage in tendentious editing even after this report was filed, and even after they have commented here:
Added on 8/21 Below Dukisuzuki says "I now understand the error of my ways". This pretty much evidences that they haven't. Oh yeah, also, I may as well state explicitly that I am not the same person as User:No such user and have no idea who they are. These accusations of sockpuppetry by Dukisuzuki are completely unwarrented and just more evidence of their battleground attitude.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
This is a pretty straight forward case of WP:NOTHERE.
Discussion concerning DukisuzukiStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DukisuzukiThere is nothing tendentious about my editing as evidenced by the following quote by Mesa Selimovic: "Potičem iz muslimanske porodice iz Bosne, a po nacionalnoj pripadnosti sam Srbin. Pripadam srpskoj literaturi" -> TRANSLATION: I COME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY FROM BOSNIA, BUT BY ETHNICITY I AM A SERB. I BELONG TO SERBIAN LITERATURE
Also, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE CONTENT OF MY EDITS OF THE ARTICLE APART FROM THE PASSIONATE REMARKS DIRECTED TO VOLUNTEER MAREK/NONESUCHUSER I LEFT IN THE EDIT SUMMARY. MY EDITS ARE AND WERE CONSTRUCTIVE AND BENEFICIAL TO THE READERS OF THE ARTICLE. HERE IS THE SPECIFIC QUOTE FROM MESA SELIMOVIC HIMSELF WHICH PROVES ME RIGHT: "Potičem iz muslimanske porodice iz Bosne, a po nacionalnoj pripadnosti sam Srbin. Pripadam srpskoj literaturi" -> TRANSLATION: I COME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY FROM BOSNIA, BUT BY ETHNICITY I AM A SERB. I BELONG TO SERBIAN LITERATURE Statement by EvergreenFirGiven the updated language at WP:HARASS, an indef is more than warranted here.
Statement by No such userAhem. While I used to criticize AE for bringing rush decisions, I believe we have a clearcut case of WP:NOTHERE and an apparent consensus of administrators. Can somebody please close this? No such user (talk) 10:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Dukisuzuki
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Settleman
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Settleman
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 08:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Settleman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA, "general 1RR restriction"
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 20 August 2015 14:00. This edit is a revert by virtue of substantially repeating this edit, which adds the paragraph that begins "According to Regavim...". Both edits are intended to convey the notion that the village did not really exist before 1986. No talk-page consensus supports doing this.
- 21 August 2015 7:56, straightforward deletion of text added by another editor
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I ask that the 1RR violation be dealt with on its own "merits"; the editor has participated on the talk page Talk:Susya and has therefore undoubtedly seen the prominent notice about "active arbitration remedies". There are other issues of POV-PUSHING we might consider; I think this editor is mainly interested in placing the work of Regavim (NGO) on relevant articles here, and if we don't deal with that issue now we'll likely have to do so soon. I'm also convinced that this editor lacks the constructive attitude necessary for editing in this area; one indication of this is this talk-page contribution, where the final sentence ("But they are fighting zionists so lying is not only acceptable but apparently encyclopedic") is a direct attack on the contributions of other editors -- it indicates Settleman's view that other editors believe that it is acceptable for organisations opposed to Regavim to "lie". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- A recent talk page comment reinforces the impression that the editor is here with a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude: "Repeating the same speech again and again doesn't make you right, just obnoxious." It also shows the extent of disagreement about this issue that persists on the talk page even now; the notion that Settleman acted per a consensus is simply false. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Settleman now says that I have not been active at Susya, nor at Grant Shapps which is the article related to the other AE report I filed. Both claims are untrue; Settleman should strike/retract them. (It's not up to me to demonstrate that they're false; it's up to Settleman to demonstrate that they're true.) Anyway, the real cause for concern is when someone is over-active at an article, i.e., edit-warring... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [4]
Discussion concerning Settleman
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Settleman
Technically I guess I'm at fault but the first edit was a result of a long discussion with Kingsindian and Nishidani which I took for an agreement.
The POV-PUSHING issue it very good description of what I'm doing as I try to change this article from saying "settlers expeled Palestinians many times" to sometimes that is less simplistic and more accurate.
It is interesting a user who didn't participate in the conversation takes the time the analyze the tone I use and even gets deeply insulted. Settleman (talk) 10:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Georgewilliamherbert: Please note additional discussion on RSN. Settleman (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @EdJohnston: I appreciate your vote. I think full protection will not be constructive. Editors are having good, even if heated, discussions on the talk page and I believe they will all agree the page had evolved in a significant way during the past month. This complaint was filed by an editor with minimal (more like non-existing) contribution who have since filed another complaint for a page on which he isn't active. This is quite a disruptive behavior that does nothing but wasting time (unless it is his official function???). Settleman (talk) 20:13, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
@Nomoskedasticity: You know other editors can see what I said and that you're twisting my words, right? I wrote your contribution was minimal to not existing. You filed this complaint after deleting text in discussion on both the talk page and RSN. 32 hrs later you drop a line in RSN and BOOM, a complaint. Is it 'active'? Sure. Is in constructive? Not in my opinion. Settleman (talk) 18:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
@Huldra: Don't recruit 'soldiers' (So, can someone undo "Settleman", please?) and you won't be blamed for declaring a war. Settleman (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Kingsindian
While this is a technical WP:1RR violation, and I do think Settleman has a rather obvious POV (I do too, quite his opposite one, and so does everyone in this area), I think Settleman's edits are almost all in good faith. The first edit was made after extensive discussion on the talk page, and had a rough, though not total consensus. See Talk:Susya#RHR_and_b.27tselem_as_RS and many other sections on the talk page. Whatever his real world motive might be, his edits on WP are by and large quite legitimate. This should first have been discussed on the Settleman's user talk page, and if he refused to revert, only then brought here. It is very easy to break WP:1RR in this area, even by mistake. See, for example here, where I broke it by mistake (though the editor who warned me was a sock, that is irrelevant), and here, where I only warned the editor, though he refused to revert. Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Georgewilliamherbert: To clarify the content issue here. The discussion on the talk page is about two kinds of sources. First, Regavim (NGO), and second Rabbis for Human Rights, B'Tselem, etc. The first edit only pertains to the Regavim source. The rough consensus was to use it with attribution, which is what Settleman did in the first diff. The point which Nomoskedasticity is talking about, pertains to the use of the other sources and is Settleman's second diff. Both are reverts, technically, the first one had a rough consensus, the second one does not. The second issue is still being discussed on the talk page. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Collect
In cases where an edit is made as a result of talk page discussions, it is clearly not in the same class as a "gotcha" for making an undiscussed revert. WP:CONSENSUS supports the use of "compromise language" discussed on a talk page in search of a consensus, and to make that concept void for the sake of someone being able to say "you addition of 'the' in the lead is a clear 1RR violation - you gonna get banned" would make a mockery of what "compromise discussions" should result in. (Here editors try to persuade others, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense; they can also suggest alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns. The result might be an agreement that does not satisfy anyone completely, but that all recognize as a reasonable solution. Consensus is an ongoing process on Wikipedia; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise – with the understanding that the page is gradually improving – than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately) Collect (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
My view is similar to that of Kingsindian. Although Settleman edits with a strong POV, often at odds with mine, he doesn't fit the standard pattern of armchair activist that the Mideast area of the encyclopaedia is beset by. For a first 1RR violation I'd recommend an official warning as the appropriate response. Zerotalk 12:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
Settleman has from his first edit shown classic WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, latest today, with this edit: "Your request above is a 'declaration of war'." He has also been involved "slow" edit-war on other articles (besides Susya):
- 2:01, 24 August 2015 remove material
- 12:01, 24 August 2015 remove same material.
Huldra (talk) 13:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- User:Georgewilliamherbert: firstly, AFAIK I have edited 2 articles with Settleman: Susya and Regavim (NGO). Susya I edited first 27 June 2014; long before "Settleman" was made as an account. The Regavim (NGO) -article I found because I regularly "stalk" Nishidani and Zero000 (Yes! I admit it!), and they had both edited the article extensively.
- As for my warning "A-I alert / DS warning June 15." ; this is the first I hear about it, and there is no indication of that on my talk-page. Huldra (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Settleman
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I don't think acting on the basis of a talk page consensus, subsequent to a single independent revert, is a 2nd revert in a reasonable sense. if that 'screally all it was I'd say not actionable. But I want to inspect the details. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Kingsindian - Ok, yes I see that. But the restriction is on more than 1RR, which would require that we count the first one (which though technically a revert was discussed and consensused first, correct?). I'm viewing this as a case where the first edit is a consensus change which goes to an earlier version, not a "revert" per se. 1RR (and the more general 3RR) are intended to stop disruptive edit warring; the first one is evidently by all review an OK change, the second one perhaps not but has not been fought over just talked over, correct? Basically, I am leaning towards us just calling the first one an edit, and the second one the policy-limited 1RR, and lacking further disruption we call it a day. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Huldra, you certainly are following him around a lot. Your edit he responded to was not as explicit but contained a bunch of WP:BATTLEGROUND issues. And you received a A-I alert / DS warning June 15. Are you sure you want to keep pushing these buttons?... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- (for others) The log date was June 18 not 15, my mistake, but some tech error happened between thr log and page history. Separate discussions snd email to Arbcom unrelated to Settleman. See my talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 15:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'd favor closing this with no block of User:Settleman but would recommend two weeks of full protection for the Susya article. The protection could be lifted once consensus is found on the talk page for the disputed matters. EdJohnston (talk) 15:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think a strong warning is sufficient, blocking would be overkill and perhaps harmful in this circumstance. As for full protection, I'm neutral. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Collect
Consensus is that this request is not actionable. T. Canens (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Collect
Gary Hart is a former US senator, two-time presidential candidate, and at present is the United States Special Envoy for Northern Ireland appointed by President Obama. The photograph under discussion was a major contributor to Hart's withdrawal from the 1988 presidential race. Gary Hart is unquestionably a US political figure.
Discussion concerning CollectStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CollectAgain asking for an investigation of this "anonymous" IP. No way is this a "new user" AFAICT. Not only is the issue of copyright ownership of a photo unrelated to "US politics" rationally construed, Gary Hart is not a current political figure at all, nor are any of my comments remotely construable as being political. I was accused of "crying 'harassment'" in the prior case - but I suggest this is a blatant case which should be dealt with promptly before this becomes a weekly show of stalking. Collect (talk) 20:24, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Note: The issue of copyright ownership has absolutely nothing to do with any political issues whatsoever, nor did I make any comments on any pages other than those directly associated with the subject of deletion of an image for reasons of copyright. I suggest, moreover, that the IP who avers he is "not a registered editor" is absolutely engaged in stalking here, and failure to act concerning such stalking is unwise for Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 21:09, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
@Fyddlestix - I made no edits to any article or article talk page here - I noted copyright at a deletion discussion and on a proper Wikipedia discussion board, but zero edits on any political article or article discussion page. Just to be clear again I made no comments about Hart on any page whatsoever. Collect (talk) 21:55, 23 August 2015 (UTC) @Fyddlestix Iterating - I did not make any comments whatsoever about the article. Period. Not once. The issue I dealt with is simple - does Rice have a clear copyright to a photo. That only. I did not mention anything whatsoever remotely connected to Hart or to his article other that the single quote from Cramer showing that Rice voluntarily gave the photo to another person. Is this sufficiently clear? (I never mentioned the article, never discussed the photo's use in any article, nor any rationale for fair use etc. - only the claim of copyright which was wrong.) Collect (talk) 22:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC) @Fyddlestix I never even dealt with what was in the photo - if it were a photo of Mount Vernon my position on copyright would have exactly been the same - and you should note with candour that I never mentioned the nature of the photo in any post - dealing strictly with it on the basis of the claims for deletion which hinged on it being copyright by Rice. I also did state that the Miami Herald is generally considered a "reliable source" (having 20 Pulitzer Prizes) despite political arguments raised by the person seeking deletion of the photo. Collect (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by EvergreenFirSecond AE from an IP against Collect in a week... seems suspiciously like WP:STALK/WP:HOUND... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:04, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by Jbhunley(edit conflict) It is pretty chicken shit to be reporting these little infractions anonymously but this one is without question a violation of his topic ban the terms of which read "Collect is banned from any page relating to or making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace. This ban may be appealed no earlier than 18 months after its adoption." (Emp. mine) There is no excuse for Collect to be making the reported edits. A topic ban means stay away from the topic not see how close one can get to the fringes and not get sanctioned. The topic ban is not relating to current US political figures but all US political figures - as it is worded this means all the way back to George Washington, kind of silly but it is what it is. JbhTalk 20:36, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I do not know how issues of IP harassment are typically handled but, in my opinion, Collect should provide a CheckUser with a list of potential editors via email and have them crosscheck with these addresses. While this not be typical procedure it probably should be and in any case it might be able to nip this in the bud before it becomes a bigger issue. JbhTalk 22:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by Glrx"Collect is banned from any page relating to or making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace." The figure is of an ancient political figure, and Collect is clearly banned from Gary Hart's page or making an edit about Gary Hart. However, the file for deletion discussion is not a discussion about politics or political figures: it's about copyright, and Collect's edits were focussed on copyright issues. He mentions Rice but in the context of her owning the copyright; mention of Hart seems to be inside a quotation. Collect doesn't even come down as a keep or delete: Collect disputed arguments about Rice holding the copyright; Collect was silent on fair use. Collect may be testing boundaries, and he may want embarrassing photos of Hart published, but I would not ding him on this one. FWIW, I think the photo fails fair use, but Collect is adding valuable clarity to the debate. Glrx (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by John CarterI'm sorry to say that, at least in my eyes, this has to be counted as being at least marginally political. I can see arguments that "diplomacy" and "politics" are unrelated, but I think that has to be counted as a bit of a stretch. Diplomats engage in government related work, and government generally qualifies as politics, broadly construed. Also, with at least one individual from roughly the same era, Biden, apparently actively considering running for president again, I don't think the argument that he has been grandfathered out of "politics" is well-based. He could well endorse one or another candidate in the race, as a formal candidate, and that would certainly be in the area of "politics." Having said all that, the nature of the existing sanction, to "politics," is itself problematic, as the definition of the term is itself open to question. Maybe particularly in this case, considering that the edit in question is from a discussion in which there seems to be some question of copyright violation. Maybe, at best, a statement from the AE enforcers about whether this is or is not within the scope of "politics," and, maybe, if so determined, a very short block, might be called for. BLP violations, in general, are not considered within the bounds of sanctions, and although I haven't gone into all the details of this case I would have to assume copyright violations might be similar to BLP in being outside the scope of regular sanctions. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by FyddlestixThis reporting-as-an-ip nonsense is incredibly petty and lame, and I think Collect is quite right to call for an SPI here. If the IP can be tied to another editor then that editor should obviously face some serious sanction. That said; I'm sorry, but Hart is a former Senator and a political appointee of the Obama administration. If he's not a "political figure," then I'm a purple gorilla. And Collect's topic ban prohibits "making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace." For Collect to
Statement by TryptofishI also request that a Checkuser look into the filing IP, in relation to existing or past accounts. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:13, 23 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by another editorResult concerning Collect
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Arthur Rubin
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Arthur Rubin
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- HughD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Discretionary_sanctions 5 September 2013
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#Arthur_Rubin_topic-banned 5 September 2013
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea_Party_movement#August_2014_.28Arthur_Rubin.29 Arthur Rubin amendment 23 August 2014
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Disruption of an Request for Comment process through deletion of RfC notices and RfC notice updates for Tea party movement-related RfCs notices prior to the expiration of the RfC discussion period.
- 24 July 2015 deletion of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article (Americans for Prosperity) from noticeboard WP:RSN with edit summary "Spam"
- 27 July 2015 removal via OneClickArchiver of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article from the talk page of a closely related Tea party movement article (Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers, which is listed at Americans for Prosperity#See also)
- 31 July 2015 deletion of an update to an RfC notice, providing a close date, regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:NPOV
- 31 July 2015 deletion of an update to an RfC notice, providing a close date, regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:ORN
- 31 July 2015 removal via OneClickArchiver of an RfC notice regarding a Tea party movement article from noticeboard WP:RSN
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 5 September 2013 Topic ban as party to Tea Party Movement case
- 14 December 2013 blocked for violation of Tea Party movement topic ban at Talk:Political activities of the Koch brothers
- block log
- 23 August 2014 Amendment request; TBan lifted; indefinite 1RR imposed, with appeal available August 2015
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Mentioned by name in the Arbitration Committee's Tea Party Movement Final Decision.
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see 14 December 2013 and the block log.
- Previously given a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict on 14 December 2013 by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).
- Successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict in the last twelve months, 23 August 2014.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
WP:RFC specifically authorizes RfC notices to one or more noticeboards and the talk pages of closely-related articles. WP:Discussion_notices#Best practices states that "regular updates may be appropriate" and identifies "setting a time for the discussion to end" as a best practice. An administrator of our project failing to model best practices, as expected of all editors in an area of general and discretionary sanctions, emboldens other editors and is seriously frustrating the goals of the Tea Party movement and American Politics final decisions in fostering an acceptable and collaborative editing environment. The reported user's amended remedy has proven ineffective. Respectfully request review of the reported behavior, re-evaluation of the amended remedy, and consideration of a re-instatement of the topic ban.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Arbitration enforcement request notice
Discussion concerning Arthur Rubin
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Arthur Rubin
Hugh already brought this matter up. I can't help it that it got archived without a response from an uninvolved admin. I haven't kept track of Hugh's topic ban, but if it hasn't expired, this is in violation.
As for the edits in question, as far as I can recall, nobody but Hugh ever commented the the edits of his that I reverted weren't spam; technically, making announcements on unrelated pages might not be a violation of WP:CANVASS, but it is still improper. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:11, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
WP:RFC does state that announcements of an RfC may be made in various locations, and update announcements may be appropriate, but I'm almost sure that noone has ever posted an RfC notice on all such locations (except WikiProject Conservatism, but including the talk page of an unrelated article and a noticeboard unrelated to this RfC, although one in which the article had been mentioned). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Hugh should have mentioned his topic ban, and it clearly would have applied to this complaint. I think, though, I need to request permission to redact parts of my statement which have been shown to be inaccurate. I need permission because Fyddlestix replied to them, and it would make those parts of his comment look misguided. (I was going to ping GeorgeWilliamHerbert about the topic ban when I got home; I have not figured out how to paste diffs on my smartphone. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
As this seems to have been closed, I don't feel a need to comment in detail as to the merits of my actions or the complainant's actions. However, I do recognize that my edits were in the Tea Party area, and may very well have been in violation of the general (Tea Party) 1RR as well as my slightly different 1RR. The complainant's actions related to RfC announcements were clearly in violation of 1RR, and would have been in violation of his AfP topic ban if done earlier. I do need to be more careful about reverting "obvious" attempts to disrupt an RfC; I would have liked a clean discussion of that RfC, which was still vaguely possible until the spamming occurred, but it could have waited, as it had to do anyway. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The complainant's further edits are generally in violation of his new topic ban, relating to American politics, except there was ambiguity as to whether that only applied to article-space. I believe it's been clarified now. In general, topic bans on X include bans on discussing other editors' actions relating to X, even if not "broadly construed". Here, though, the ban was originally written as "articles related to American politics".
- I would prefer not to go into the details of any improprieties of the original complainant which prompted my actions, unless deemed necessary, as he is now (I believe) clearly banned from doing anything similar. However, it is quite clear that opening this report without stating that it was delayed because he would have been in violation of his topic ban to start it earlier was withholding clearly relevant information. That the facts were brought up shortly thereafter (but not by him) is not really a point in his favor; it's not really a point against him, either, because he was blocked shortly thereafter. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Fyddlestix
I'm not gonna comment on whether or not Arthur needs sanctioning here, but I will say that the drama between Hugh, Arthur, and a few other editors (Springee springs to mind) seems to be getting out of control - I really think that admin action is needed to fix this, or it's going to just drag on and on.
See Hugh's previous report of Arthur here [6], the multiple ANI complaints against Hugh (only 1 of which led to any action)[7][8][9], Hugh's own noticeboard complaints [10][11][12][13] and the current report of Hugh at 3RR by Springee [14] - note especially the allegation there that Hugh is being followed from article to article by a few other editors, including Arthur (as I've commented there, I think there's actually some evidence of this).
All that just over this summer, all involving more or less the same small circle of editors, and focusing on a small number of articles like Americans for Prosperity, which was paralyzed for a month by this complete disaster of an RFC. It's a mess; these editors are clearly not even trying to get along, and some of them are clearly "out to get" each other at this point. It needs addressing. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Arthur Rubin:, Hugh did already make a complaint against you here (it's here), but that was about an entirely different issue (namely, NPOV tagging/tag removal). You're incorrect to suggest that nobody ever suggested the posts weren't spam, see the several people defending them when his edits were raised at ANI. As for Hugh's topic ban, it is here. It applied only to "anything related" to Americans for Prosperity, and included "any noticeboard discussions about the RFC, any further debates about the closing, whatever." It was a 2 week ban, imposed August 8, so basically 14 days ago. (@Georgewilliamherbert:, there's your answer, it looks as though Hugh thought he was topic banned from raising this until today.) Fyddlestix (talk) 04:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Onel5969: Your statement here is wildly inaccurate. Your own edits to the article here were a complete whitewash, utterly inconsistent with what the vast majority of reliable sources say about Americans for Prosperity. While I don't agree with all his edits and certainly don't agree with his editing style, Hugh was responding to a very real, very blatant POV problem on that article - which you and Arthur both helped to create. Fyddlestix (talk) 02:53, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Onel5969: You know you're supposed to comment in your own section, right? As for your diff there, funny how the very next discussion started on the talk page was a detailed rundown of how completely and utterly out of step with reliable sources your "NPOV" version of the page was. So the incorrect part of your statement below is the assertion that Hugh was POV pushing - even if he was, this is a rather severe case of the pot calling the kettle black. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by HughD
@Georgewilliamherbert: An administrator recently recommended stepping back from Americans for Prosperity for two weeks, and I took the advice. After reflection, there was still something that needed to be done. The behavior of an administrator of our project is a very real impediment to fostering civility in the area of the Tea Party movement final decision, please help. I was not sure if an AE filing would be a violation, but I was very sure some would argue it was, as demonstrated by the reported user's initial response to this filing, now deleted, please see 23:11, 23 August 2015. Thank you for your consideration of this request. Hugh (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
@JzG: This filing is reporting disruptive editing, by an administrator of our project, who is currently under editor sanctions, in an area under general and discretionary sanctions. This filing makes no reference to content and is not a content dispute. Other editors are influenced by the behavior of the reported administrator in deciding how far they can push within the bounds of our Arbitration Committee's directives to us to be "especially mindful" of policy and behavioral guidelines and to "follow editorial and behavioural best practice". This is a very real problem. Please help. Thank you for your careful consideration of this request. Hugh (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @JzG: What do you mean "inevitable"? What do you mean "explosion"? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@JzG:, @Newyorkbrad: May I respectfully ask, what is the statute of limitations on reports of multiple deletions of RfC notices by an administrator of our project while under editor sanctions in an area under general and discretionary sanctions, approximately? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
10:06, 7 August 2015 Ricky81682 wrote on my talk page "Take two weeks off in full from this issue." Thank you. Hugh (talk) 04:49, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ricky81682: This is not a misleading AE report. It is not a report regarding an article, it is a report on behavior, the behavior of an edit-restricted administrator. I never wrote anything misleading in this report or anywhere else. I did not report my ban here because I did not know it was relevant. I was not prompted by the filing form to summarize my recent history. I did not explain the delay in this filing in the initial statement above because I did not know there was a delay that needed explaining. I did not know of the statute of limitations. There was no intent to conceal. 17:33, 23 August 2015 George asked why the delay, and 23:11, 23 August 2015 the reported user answered, Hugh was banned, before I could answer (subsequently deleted by the reported user). 23:47, 23 August 2015 another editor jumped in, confirming the answer, Hugh was banned, with a diff. By the time I saw the question, I had nothing to add to the answers. 09:44, 24 August 2015 I quipped "I was asked to step back" after the ban was clearly and prominently in the record, knowing no one would take me literally. No one did. No one was deceived. There was no intent to deceive. There was no deception. My history is a click away from the first line of this filing. The only way I could have possibly in my wildest dreams succeeded in a plot to conceal the ban would have been if I had figured out some way to disable that link and also prevent the reported user from bringing it up, which he did in the first line of his statement, now deleted, not struck through, by the reported user. I respectfully request we please maintain focus on the behavior of an administrator of our project who deleted multiple RfC notices regarding an area in which he is under discretionary sanctions, and the effect such an administrator has on the editors around him, a real problem for our project. Hugh (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ricky81682: I am not pretending anything. I never argued against the RfC close, I asked questions of the closing administrator to try and understand the close. I did not post an RfC notice at 26 different places, I posted it at three noticeboards and two closely related talk pages. Hugh (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ricky81682: "Collapsing my own section as it is not at all relevant to the conduct of User:Arthur Rubin" Really? Just dropping by to discredit the reporting user Rick? Your work here is done. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 10:10, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Dennis Brown: Respectfully, my read of the reported administrator's amended remedy of 24 August 2014 is that it is indefinite. The earliest date available for appeal is specified as one year from the date of the amendment, that is, 24 August 2015. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by non-party onel5969
@Ricky81682: If you think that's not encouraging, take a look at the Americans for Prosperity since Hugh's topic ban has expired, where he has gone directly back to POV pushing on the page, now that other editors have grown tired of his wall of comments on numerous pages. Another editor has even removed the POV tag from the page, even though the POV is even more slanted now. Onel5969 TT me 01:57, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Fyddlestix: Actually, my edits were an attempt to bring the article to an agreed-upon consensus. At the time those edits were made, HughD was the only editor, of several involved, to have a dissenting view. Perhaps you missed that? Take a look at the talk page on the day I began my edits (June 24). Hugh's was the only dissenting voice, here's a link for your convenience. And what is incorrect about my statement below? He was blocked for 2 weeks; after the block is lifted he almost immediately begins his POV pushing editing. It's not rocket science, it's pretty blatant. But, you go your way, I'll go mine. Take it easy. Onel5969 TT me 03:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Jusdafax
Per Dennis Brown, below, you have an admin in violation of ArbCom sanctions. Looks clear cut to me: corrective action needs to be taken. Jusdafax 18:23, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Result concerning Arthur Rubin
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Why... Are these being made three weeks later?... ? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- I doubt that I am the only one sick of the constant dramas around Hugh's editing. This request is a rather obvious abuse of process in an attempt to gain an advantage in a content dispute. Is a sanction in order for this? For example a six month ban from use of Wikipedia process against other editors with whom Hugh is in dispute? Hugh: in response to your point, insert "long stale" and see how that reads back to you. Guy (Help!) 10:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Ricky81682: It was inevitable, I think. Unfortunately the teabaggers are adept at long-term WP:CPUSH and winding up other editors to the point of explosion. Guy (Help!) 08:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- Decline as stale, which is not to say it would have been a violation if it weren't stale, but Arthur Rubin could usefully be mindful of the concerns expressed going forward. I hear JzG's point about potentially sanctioning the filing part, but at this point I'm not inclined to pursue that either. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Collapsing my own section as it is not at all relevant to the conduct of User:Arthur Rubin. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
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- I agree with much of what Newyorkbrad says, however, I think it is clear that Arthur overstepped here, and I hesitate to do nothing considering the sheer number of edits that are arguably related to the Tea Party RFC. I prefer seeing this within two weeks, and quicker to dismiss after 4 weeks, but this is in the grey area. Also, I note the ban is due to expire, but that doesn't really matter as it is in full effect on day 363 the same as it is on day one. If I set aside all concerns about HughD, forget that Arthur is an admin, put away all the drama about the Tea Party (and I would ask my colleagues to refrain from calling people "teabaggers"), I'm still left with a violation of an Arb topic ban. Arthur should have (and I assume he did) know that his actions were in violation of the topic ban, as they were specifically targeted at a Tea Party RFC, not some random topic, nor was it a single edit. I'm hard pressed to just ignore that. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:31, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- I was hoping for at least an acknowledgement of some kind from Arthur Rubin on whether or not he feels his actions violated his topic ban, and if it did, why it was important to do so, and what he planned moving forward. I'm not completely sold on sanctions, but this looks too much like sweeping it under the rug if we ignore the very reason we are here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 22:13, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- Arthur Rubin, I think the main thing here is that we insure the community that you aren't granted special privileges by virtue of the bit, and if anything, you are held to a higher standard. The fact that you have any kind of restriction in an area tells me you have a degree of involvement or at least a history of problematic editing. As such, you should get outside help with the problem rather than acting proactively. It isn't a matter of wrong and right as much as the appearance it gives to the greater community, and in this case, I feel you came up short. With some trepidation, I'm willing to defer to Newyorkbrad's judgement and conclusion, but it should be clear that in the future, you need to tread more carefully in areas where you have Arb restrictions. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 01:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Collect
No action now. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Collect and others has been opened to determine what happens in the future. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Collect
See block log...
Having been banned from US politics, Collect appears to be heading towards the same sort of trouble with UK politics. Be that as it may, there's an obvious violation of 1RR here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning CollectStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CollectAgain. The question here is clearly whether a source that states "Extracts of the get-rich-quick scheme created by the Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps, were revealed for the first time last night since it disappeared from the internet." (The Independent) and "To be clear, we have no evidence that this amounted to a pyramid scheme. It just sounds like one." (The Guardian) should be given a section title of Alleged pyramid scheme since neither source makes that allegation, and a "pyramid scheme" is a criminal offence in the UK. Per WP:BLPCRIME, allegations of a criminal act require strong sourcing, and neither source makes the allegation. I consider "neither source making an allegation" meets the criterion of "unsourced or poorly sourced" accusation of criminal acts. I posted the concern immediately at the proper noticeboard, as is required. [16]. My two BLP edits on the article were at 12:54 24 August and at 17:53 on 23 August, with posts to the OP at [17] 23:20 23 August, indicating the BLP issue, and [18] 23:22 on 23 August. One might recall I have had a number of AE "suits filed" in the past three days, and I suggest that the BLP issue here is real and substantive - involving making an unsubstantiated claim that a person promoted a "pyramid scheme" when neither source made such an allegation. Collect (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
@JBH - I noted from the get-go that I was going to be away for a substantial period unless you happened to miss all of that. and asked I be given until July to prepare full responses. (reasons include the extended trip and a minor problem called melanoma for which my wife lost about 800 cc of her arm) Recall -- I had presented no evidence against anyone, so my first section was addressing what had been the charges - - while I was unable to even log in, other "evidence" was presented which there was no way in hell I could rebut because I was not around to do so. Had I been given until July, I would have rebutted the thin evidence presented just as I had rebutted all the initial charges (that I called an editor anti-Semitic was one which rankled a lot!). So now that you assert that my trip to Russia was "bull" I know your position all too well (sigh). So I suppose you feel it is ok to label a person an "alleged criminal" - noting that I did indeed go to BLP/N with the issue? Really? Alleging that someone committed a felony is a big deal. Period. Now I would be impolite left to my own here - but I shall avoid that temptation -- and wish your wife the same health my wife will hopefully have. Collect (talk) 22:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC) Request JBHunley be IBanned from mentioning me in any namespace. He has made specific false claims about me. [21] is clear that I would be unable to do much at all until 15 June 2015. [22] ditto. If those posts were not clear to anyone with eyes at all, then I damn well should give in to the infernal harassment which I have mentioned in probably too many places. To be clear - jbh is not the record holder.
[23] *I'd also invite Collect to provide a diff for the assertion that someone has called him "anti-Semitic" -- that's a serious accusation, and if it's true then there should be a sanction which was odd as I have never on any post said anyone called me "anti-Semitic" at all. [24] We now have the proposer opposing his own RfC -- so to avoid any further ridiculousness... hatting an open RfC - and I find no rule saying a person posing a question must have a specific answer to the question. [25] since you have a well-entrenched habit of trying to put words into the mouths of other editors, I've decided not to worry about it when you do that to me. Have fun Consider the likelihood of two editors just accidentally editing the same page within the timeframe indicated: (FWIW - the time difference is generally between my edit and the subsequent edit of my stalker as in some cases it was not a blatant response to my edit or were in different matter on a noticeboard etc.)
19 pages all with a maximum of 3 minutes between editor interactions with my edit being first - what are the odds? Especially considering some comments therein. -- if this is not prima facie evidence of my edits being specifically stalked, I do not know what would be evidence. Collect (talk) 23:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC) The reason why it does not look like your interactions is because it is the interactions with the OP here - it would be improper for me to address your edits, but reasonable here to show a handful of his edits. I would have a heart attack if you two were the same person <g>. Collect (talk) 23:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC) @Tryptofish - I had no intention or relitigating anything - but disliked having a person call me a liar where I show the diffs that I said I would not be able to complete evidence in the allowed timeframe. I know I should have told my wife not to have a life-threatening cancer, but I did not think that would be effective, even if we used homeopathic remedies. As a result, I did not have a reasonable opportunity to rebut multiple sets of "evidence" and noted that some wished most of what I did give to be removed as being over the evidence limit <g>. Amazingly enough, cancer is more important than Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC) Apologies to anyone offended - one might get a teeny bit curt with back to back to back accusations, followed by added accusations of lying about asking for added time in the past, and the like. I would kindly ask others to walk in my moccasins, as the adage goes, to see why I might be curt here. Thank you all. Collect (talk) 00:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by BrustopherThe information reverted is a completely vacuous accusation of a crime which only has a single paragraph of a news article dedicated to it, in which it is written "To be clear, we have no evidence that this amounted to a pyramid scheme." Obvious BLP exception. Brustopher (talk) 16:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by John CarterYou admins who frequent this page more than me probably know this better, but I am getting the impression, oh, I don't know, that maybe, just maybe mind you, Collect is getting a little more attention than most editors in general get around here, this being at the time of this writing the 3rd section of a total of 7 on the page about Collect. I would be the first to acknowledge that if someone is topic banned from an area of content, it would probably be a good idea to avoid that content, even in terms of BLP, copyright, and other issues. The fact that there are so many complaints might indicate that maybe Collect might benefit from a polite warning that maybe he would be well advised to less obviously dance along the dividing line between sanctionable and unsanctionable here, and, maybe, if there is any sort of (gasp) organized or disorganized "let's get Collect" movement here, maybe in anticipation of the increasingly covered US election races, maybe a bit of warning to others about too dogged pursuit of him might not be a bad idea either. John Carter (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by TryptofishI think that much of what John Carter said directly above me is very sensible, and I largely agree. However, it seems to me that the sanction in question makes an exception, explicitly, only for unambiguous vandalism. The content that was reverted was not unambiguous vandalism. This is a content dispute with BLP concerns, but it is not a case of vandalism. It does raise BLP issues, and there was nothing wrong with Collect drawing attention to those concerns without actually making repeat reverts. There are multiple editors who could have actually performed the reversions in this case. The BLP issues do not meet the definition of unambiguous vandalism, particularly in the context of ArbCom's findings in the case, regarding the use of BLP as a justification for edits. I think that this AE filing, unlike the two very recent filings by an IP, does show an attempt by Collect to test limits. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Jbhunley
That said I think it would be right, as an exception, to not sanction Collect on this report but it needs to be made clear that if he violates 1RR again claiming BLP he will be sanctioned. JbhTalk 01:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (Fyddlestix)Oh dear, we seem to have gone off the rails a bit here. There's no need for rev dels or IBANs that I can see, Collect and JBH are quite capable of getting along - when they're not discussing the ArbCom case - and have worked cooperatively together in the past. Collect, if you feel that nomo is harassing you you should probably raise the matter at ANI. One thing, though: have you considered the possibility that both you and nomo just watch BLPN really closely, and end up editing the same articles a lot because of that? I know that's often why you and I cross paths, and both you and nomo tend to be quite active there.
Statement by SettlemanI'm new around here but it seems like Nomoskedasticity is more busy requests against other editors then editing. He wasted my time and now he wastes Collect's. It should be a policy that an editor cannot file these requests unless he has taken meaningful part of the conversation. Settleman (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by GlrxAn easy part is the purpose here is not to relitigate but rather to enforce. The arbitration discussion did raise the issue of Collect improperly invoking BLP to serve a POV, and a finding had Collect removing reliably sourced material from a BLP. The remedy was 1RR. The remedy was followed by "This restriction excepts the reversal of unambiguous vandalism." The problem is 1RR already has implied exceptions for both vandalism and BLP. I don't read the remedy as excluding the BLP exception. If it intended that, it should excluded the exceptions rather than confirm them. (Sorry for wikilawyering here.) BLP is, of course, a riskier play; it is safer to post a notice than to revert. The reverted content gives me trouble. Let me accept that the content is reliably sourced by the Guardian. The content does waffle about a pyramid scheme, but it does describe something that could be a pyramid or a clever way to avoid some legal definition of one. For example, the story does not say the first buyer must share his profits with the original seller. Our article reflects that doubt; the allegation is not in WP's voice. The Guardian does not say the cost is $497 claimed in our article (where did that price come from? why are the prices in dollars?); the Guardian does say it promised making $20,000 in 20 days. Consequently, even if the product avoids the pyramid scheme label, it smells of fraud. The Guardian ties the creation of the product directly to Shapps even though Shapps has now transferred his share of the company to his wife. I'd like more sources, but the controversy also seems to be part of the Grant Shapps#Pseudonym and second job denials section due to the pen name "Michael Green" (who also authored the $20,000 in 20 days guide). We come back to the Guardian, but there's another source, Buzzfeed (I'm not impressed), and a third source has video of Shapps making a statement that was later retracted. There are some other twists and turns about threatened lawsuits, but I don't have the patience to go through them. It's thinly sourced, but I think the content survives and should not have been reverted twice. Given the thinness, I'm reluctant to advocate a block, but Collect should have been more circumspect. I'll second John Carter. Glrx (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by The Big Bad Wolfowitz1RR restrictions, like 3RR, are established and governed by WP:EW. which is policy. WP:EW states that 1RR is analogous to 3RR, and does not indicate any operative differences between the two aside from the number of reverts involved. WP:EW sets out seven exceptions to revert limits, including reversion of obvious vandalism. Other exceptions include the removal of copyright violations, reverts of one's own edits, and reverts in one's own userspace. Under the theory set out by editors urging that Collect be sanctioned, the failure of Arbcom to mention these exceptions means that they would also not be permissible for an editor under 1RR. This is obviously not a tenable position. If Arbcom intends that the full range of exemptions not be available to a sanctioned editor, it needs to say so directly. Alternatively, the community could amend WP:EW to specify differences between 1RR and 3RR exemptions. But neither would apply retroactively to Collect. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 04:58, 28 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Collect
A couple of notes:
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Lidaz
No longer relevant since CU has indef blocked for sockpuppetry. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 08:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Lidaz
Evidently a tendentious agenda account whose command of English is quite inadequate for participating appropriately here. Single-purpose account, has been active on the Yulia Tymoshenko article and related topics since October last year, always in the same tendentious manner. Latest talkpage thread (Talk:Yulia Tymoshenko#Allegations of torture) displays complete failure to get the points other users are making. With this lack of English skills and this battleground mentality, this editor will always remain a net negative for the project. Would have indef-blocked him myself, as an (up to now) completely uninvolved admin happening to come across the edit-war, but then my first reaction on seeing the mangled article was that I tried to fix some of it myself, so I probably no longer count as uninvolved. Note that the editor he was initially edit-warring against, Againstdisinformation (talk · contribs), is quite likely a sock of some sorts and probably quite as tendentious (see multiple current WP:ANI threads relating to him), but in this particular instance he appears to have the better grasp of the sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Discussion concerning LidazStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by LidazStatement by Againstdisinformation@Future Perfect at Sunrise: I commend you for correcting the falsities in the article but I protest in the strongest possible terms your unsubstantiated allegation that I am "quite likely a sock of some sorts and probably quite as tendentious". This is mere speculation on your part. I have assigned myself the Quixotic task of tracking inaccuracies and disinformation in Wikipedia, knowing perfectly well that this would get me into trouble, as is illustrated by your unfounded accusations here as well as previous clashes with biased editors to which you are referring. Please do not discourage me from accomplishing a task which, while useful for Wikipedia, is very demanding and not at all rewarding for me.Againstdisinformation (talk) 20:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Lidaz
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MarkBernstein
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning MarkBernstein
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Masem (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 03:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate#Discretionary_sanctions :
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 16:39, 2015 August 28 Out of the blue, Mark starts mentioneing My Little Pony, which is an area I am involved in too. While this is not direct evidence of anything wrongdoing yet, it comes up again, and its inclusion out of the blue seems purposely targeting me. That said, I let this slide beyond asking to not continue personal attacks.
- 19:22, 2015 August 29 Mark starts using this (to me) passive-aggressive "M____" thing to name me without naming me, reacting to when I referenced a comment he had made as "Mark" simply as common WP shorthand ([39]), but which Mark took as "he persists in using my first name as if we were great pals", which is huge assumption of bad faith), and claiming that I want to expose all these accusations ("And once again we're talking about how the
nasty liberalpress is all bias, naming specific publications but without the least indication of what ethical lapses M_____ dreams they committed."), when I was trying to point out that there have been some claims mentioned and reiterated that we cannot include those claims in WP (see [40] and [41]. - 20:17, 2015 August 30 More use of the "M____" thing as well as undermining my editorial abilities, despite my asking him to stop issuing personal attacks [42] and [43].
- 23:09, 2015 August 30 More use of the "M____" thing, as well as continuing to try to undermine my character by pointing out what I've written on WP on My Little Pony stuff.
- 01:54, 2015 August 31 in reply to a comment I made regarding that there does exist two sides in the GG controversy. Besides continuing this "M____" thing, the edit summary he gives is "That it is necessary to explain this to adults -- much less adults who purport to be competent to edit an encyclopedia, beggars belief", which is a full on personal attack.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
These all were prior to the completion of the GG ArbCom case but while community sanctions were active.
- 17:39, 2014 November 28 by Gamaliel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) Blocked for "disruptive rhetoric and behavior incompatible with collaborative editing."
- 00:08, 4 January 2015 by east718 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for "violating your topic ban with these edits"
- 17:00, 2015 January 24 by HJ Mitchell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for another topic ban violation related to GG.
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I have been trying to remain as civil as possible on the GG situation and focusing only on the content (perhaps to where some might call my actions tenacious, which I will not dispute but only because I strongly feel the article fails core WP policies, needs more eyes to help, and the same battleground/ownership attitudes that lead to the first ArbCom case are coming around again; Other editors also agree there are NPOV issues with this article). However, I have been on the long-term end of MarkBernstein's attacks, who has engaged in personal attacks and battleground behavior prior (see above blocks) and through now. The above diffs identify just the most recent episode, and while the first few diffs I would have shrugged off, the last diff is clearly a sign that Mark is not here to work collaboratively but instead make sure the article maintains a very specific narrative, assuming bad faith against any editor that does not subscribe to that. I recognize that Mark is being criticized offsite by GG supporters for his views, and in good faith I can see how that might contribute towards his attitude to fight even harder to make sure they don't get their way on the article. But that said, the Lightbreather case emphasized the need to maintain civility to other editors regardless of the external conditions.
I had filed a previous AE complaint here [44] on the same issue of NPA (July), but it was closed due to a technicality and I chose not to pursue it based on the advice of others. However, I will stand that the diffs provided are similar to this behavior and generally part of a long-term problem with this editor. I note that after that closed AE, as Mark had asked during his statement, I did engage with him on his talk page to try to make peace in good faith and try to come to an understanding on the GG page (This is the conclusion of that thread) but he showed no sign of working collaboratively.
I recognize that some might be seeing this as a means to remove an opponent from a discussion and that there's a chance BOOMERANG applies, but I will point out that there are other editors that share the general concerns Mark has and take his stance on the current article's narrative that are much more open to consensus development, even if there are clashes of ideals (which is never a bad thing); these discussions go along fine without any editor breaking decorum. This complaint is specifically due to Mark's personal behavior and not to remove these opposing views from the discussion. I also recognize that some of the things Mark has criticized on my behavior are related to BLP, but I believe that I was very careful to stay within BLPTALK's limits (another editor even asked me about one case), but I recognize that that might be reviewed.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning MarkBernstein
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by MarkBernstein
Statement by PeterTheFourth
Really, Masem? This is what counts as arb report worthy? PeterTheFourth (talk) 05:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
If taken far enough, politely pushing a point of view (WP:CPUSH) becomes more disruptive than any uncivil outburst. Masem has made 427 edits to Gamergate controversy and 2397 edits to Talk:Gamergate controversy in just under a year.
In addition, there have been numerous noticeboard discussions, for example this NPOV archive has 128KB devoted to some hard-to-pin-down proposal to bend Wikipedia's standard procedures to introduce counterpoints to what reliable sources say.
Masem has had plenty of opportunity to make a proposal that would satisfy himself while being consistent with NPOV and RS. The fact that Masem still wants to discuss who-knows-what such as in this section indicates that it is time for Masem to take a break. A voluntary twelve-month break from all matters related to Gamergate would be fine, otherwise it is time for a topic ban to be implemented. It is not healthy for the community that Masem is able to soak up so much time and energy with polite suggestions that NPOV and RS be suspended for this topic. Johnuniq (talk) 05:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Ryk72
@Johnuniq: With respect, ...polite suggestions that NPOV and RS be suspended for this topic
, is a gross misrepresentation of the editor's comments and actions, and I invite you to strike it, per WP:ASPERSIONS. A more accurate reflection would be that the editor suggests adherence to all aspects of WP:NPOV, including WP:YESPOV, in the face of other editors tendentiously insisting that opinions & contentious assertions be presented as uncontroversial & incontrovertible facts. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 05:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
Masem has, more or less, been repeating the exact same arguments, with very little change, in the Gamergate article for nearly a year now. Roughly speaking, his arguments are that:
1. The mainstream media is biased against Gamergate. Because the controversy includes accusations against the mainstream media as a whole, normally-reliable mainstream media sources on the topic shouldn’t be considered as reliable as usual when covering it; therefore we need to include (and give more weight to) less-reliable, non-mainstream sources we otherwise wouldn’t use in order to balance this supposed bias out.
2. Gamergate is divided into (relatively) clearly-defined factions, including what he calls an “ethics faction”, which he believes the article needs to give more attention to. As I understand it, he wants key parts of the article to be structured around this division.
My point isn’t to debate these arguments here. My point is that he has repeated these arguments again and again with almost no change, regardless of what is said in talk, regardless of the current state of the article, and regardless of the fact that they’ve clearly failed to gain consensus, for nearly a year now. This is textbook Tendentious Editing (specifically, WP:REHASH).
To be clear, having a strong opinion about these things isn’t the problem; almost everyone has opinions on this topic. The problem is that he has repeated the exact same arguments, over and over, with virtually no change, for nearly a year. The frustration visible in MarkBernstein’s edits has to be understood in light of that; many of the arguments he’s responding to there are ones that Masem has repeated over and over and over again on that talk page. I can only assume that Masem is frustrated as well (since he clearly believes the arguments he's putting forward, and has spent so much time and text repeating them while getting nowhere), but simply repeating them over and over for nearly a year is not a solution and has made the talk page a sometimes-frustrating place to deal with. I feel that that is, overall, a more serious problem on the talk page than the relatively mild comments he linked to above. --Aquillion (talk) 08:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by Brustopher
After a lot of thinking I have come up with a solution which I think will satisfy no one but deal with all of the concerns addressed here:
- The following editing restriction is placed on Masem: "Masem may only edit Talk:Gamergate controversy to, 1. propose a specific change to the article, 2. oppose/support a change proposed by another editor 3. remove obvious vandalism or BLP violations." The main problem with Masem's comments on the talk page is that they're often theoretical discussions of wikipolicy that go nowhere. This restriction will help counteract this problem.
- MarkBernstein is banned from interacting with Masem. If you dig up the diffs from this request, Masem's previous request and MarkBernstein's original request against Masem on the WP:GS/GG/E page there is probably enough evidence to support this. While it's mostly been minor stuff, it's been minor stuff over a long period of time.
- Working on number 3/placeholder for any order concerns raised/an attempt to deal with offsite issues
Thoughts? Brustopher (talk) 11:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning MarkBernstein
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I skimmed this discussion earlier this evening after seeing lots of activity on my watchlist. (I'm pointing that out lest anyone thinks I was contacted about this matter by anyone from either side, which has happened quite often over the last year.) While this is not optimal behavior, personally I don't see how it is sanctionable behavior, especially given the far harsher stuff which we regularly shrug off here and elsewhere on the encyclopedia. This is pretty mild stuff by the standards of the Gamergate article, or really any even remotely contentious article. It also leaves out the context of the discussion. While it does not excuse sub-optimal behavior, you have been beating the same drum on the talk page for nearly a year, which is bound to irritate other editors and has just as much of a negative effect on the atmosphere of collaborative editing as snarkiness does. Gamaliel (talk) 03:48, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Gamaliel echos my sentiments here. I would note that since the article was first created and sent to AFD the next day, Masem has been heavily involved. This is fine, but I fear Masem is very invested and his threshold is set too low with this topic. This doesn't excuse MarkBernstein's behavior, which is often filled with ad hominem, but it really isn't an AE issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)