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Following an Israeli-course on editingWikipedia to further a national agenda, a Palestinian group initiates a plan to establish its view on the encyclopaedia.[1][2]
Law and crime
The Danish-based Kurdish TV station Roj TV faces terror charges for supporting PKK. (Denmark.DK)
The South African government improves a pay offer to more than a million striking public sector workers in an attempt to end the two-week-long strike. (AllAfrica.com)(BBC)(CNN)
Following reports of an Israeli course on editing wikipedia to POV-push political agendas, Palestinians also set up a case for a counter-group because the "next regional war will be [a] media war." (see box above)(Lihaas (talk) 03:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
This seems to be more a topic for the Signpost than for ITN. --Tone 07:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Self ref, and hundreds of ethnic groups have their orgs' members on here posting nonsense all the time anyway, with much success too YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since we would probably have posted Last of the Summer Wine the other day, had it not been the TFA, I think we should consider the final episode of The Bill which airs tonight (BST). It's the UK's longest-running police drama and one of the longest-running British TV series of all time and is something of a British icon. It's had crossovers with Dutch and German TV series and spawned about half a dozen spin offs. There was (predictably) a Facebook campaign to save it that got thousands of members, which shows that it has significant interest. It became something of a rite of passage for up-and-coming actors, so it's helped to launch the careers of, inter alia, Keira Knightley, Denise van Outen, James McAvoy and Paul O'Grady(The Guardian). The Beeb have a nice article about its cultural impact, as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I should mention that the article is a GA and is up to date and some material can be added to it once the final episode has aired. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Seems good. I will be watching and taping the final episode and the documentary that follows shortly after, will add any information if it's needed. --5 albert square (talk) 19:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: the rationale for adding LOTSW was based around it being the World's longest running sitcom: The Bill, although long lived, is not being claimed even to be British TV's longest running anything. Kevin McE (talk) 22:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And by a similar argument Toy Story 3 is the #1 grossing animated movie. I think I have to oppose - its not the world's #1 so I don't think its notable enough I'm afraid. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Kevin McE. Was an icon in Britain and old folks in Australia but the end of the show really isn't significant. Also, it's about 20 years too late, IMO! We're getting a bit too lax on entertainment-related postings, in my view. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per KM. Nergaal (talk) 00:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose if it needs all the caveats to warrant a placement.. (ie- longest, ukpolice drama). (Lihaas (talk) 01:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
I'll also go with oppose here. It is not a slow news day, there are many more important items being discussed at the moment. --Tone 07:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Operation Iraqi Freedom becomes Operation New Dawn
In the Iraq War, Operation Iraqi Freedom ends and Operation New Dawn begins, marking the change in role of the United States Forces from combatants to advisors.
How did people forget this? MickMacNee (talk) 13:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We've discussed this one two weeks ago when most of the troops have left the country. Support now. --Tone 13:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It will be a big presidential speech tonight as well. Whatever one thinks of all this, it's newsworthy. Jusdafax 14:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant support given that Obama's speech is going to be on everyone's front page tonight. Courcelles 17:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but I'd like the blurb to provide more context. ~AH1(TCU) 19:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose not much is changing on the ground. theyve been out of the cities for awhile, one general says they could very well be in combat mode at some point again depending on the sitatuation, and the nominee seems to be his speech which is not much "well focus on the economy now that the war is over" -- deviant already.Lihaas (talk) 01:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support - but as I said last time this was nominated, can we make sure that the emphasis is placed on the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom and the end of combat operations rather than any future position of foreign forces in the country. I would slightly alter Mick's blurb to something like In the Iraq War, Operation Iraqi Freedom ends and Operation New Dawn begins, marking the end to foreign combat operations in the country --Daviessimo (talk) 07:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be getting support, what about the blurb and the highlight article? --Tone 07:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per Jusdafax. Ks0stm(T•C•G) 14:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Folks, you can support this 'til you're blue in the face, but without an update it can't go up. I'm happy there's plenty of support for this, but we have nothing that would qualify as an update to any of the three articles suggested so far. I will post it once it's updated, but I won't post it before even if a hundred people support it! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:14, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - would you say the Operation New Dawn update the the Iraq War article is good enough? I admit it is not a lot, but it could be considered a good start. Jusdafax 16:52, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not really. There's only a couple of sentences on this event. I'd like at least one good-sized paragraph. There should be plenty of material available. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Added a paragraph regarding the ceremony in Baghdad with comments from several U.S. officials including Vice President Joe Biden. Jusdafax 17:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I vote to remove this item. Nothing has changed in reality - the drawdown was scheduled during the Bush administration. All that has actually happened is that Obama gave a speech. The rebranding is hardly newsworthy.μηδείς (talk) 00:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't agree regarding the newsworthiness issue raised here, this editor raises an interesting point... has an ITN item ever been removed as an afterthought? If so, it means any controversial or close !votes here could be reversed. I don't think I like that concept because of the potential for non-stop drama. Jusdafax 01:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
last week when they started moving out of iraq we decided to wait till it became official. u r correct that nothing has changed but obama saying the war is over is a fairly big news. in history books this day will go down as the day the war ended not the day the military leaves. and yes ITN items have been removed before but you need a very heavy consensus for that, once its up consider it up for good in most cases. -- Ashish-g55 01:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how do you know that this day will go down in history, Ashish? Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. No treaty was signed. No battle was fought. No last troop withdrew. No event not scheduled since Bush's presidency has occured. Only two things have actually happened. Obama gave his 500-somethingeth speech, and the name was changed. If the headline is not removed - and I maintain that it should be, then it should at least reflect the facts. The headline Operation Iraqi Freedom becomes Operation New Dawn is bizarrely metaphysical.
I propose the alternate ITN headline:
In a speech praising former president Bush, Barack Obama renamed Operation Iraqi Freedom as Operation New Dawn.μηδείς (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i dont think i said anything wrong. u dont need a crystal ball to say this is the day the war ended. when president of country attacking you gives a speech on tv that its over then its over. how is signing a piece of paper better? if they start any combat operations again (which they could even if they signed some "treaty") that would be big enough news to post again. -- Ashish-g55 03:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you believe that the United States has stopped attacking Iraq? I am glad you clarified that. But I do not share your faith in comments made on TV.
The war in Iraq ended? Thats ludicrous, there isnothing to say that obama is the barometer of history. He makes a comment so voila: The war ends..No more bombings and shootings and strife and political discord. A sudden move to make peace and move towards a new Iraq on Sept. 1, 2010...??? See [3] and more importantly even the warmongers: [4](Lihaas (talk) 04:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
wth i never said they left iraq in good condition. u can twist my words whichever way u like but doesnt change the fact its a big event. -- Ashish-g55 04:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Praising" former President Bush should not be the focus of this story if it ever gets posted. It would be better to focus on another part of the speech. ~AH1(TCU) 15:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Twice winner of the Tour de France, and once of the Giro d'Italia, aged fifty: was still a commentator on French TV at the Tour last month. Kevin McE (talk) 12:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Admitted doper, had been retired for almost 20 years, death was not unexpected (he had cancer) and has no major international impact. --Smashvilletalk 14:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Yet another ignorant American idiot. "No major international impact"? He won the TdF twice and tons of people have failed dope tests, Carl Lewis, etc, the fact that this guy confessed doesn't mean he is less notable; doping tests can be gamed easily and most get caught in elaborate police raids, which tends to only happen in cycling YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:03, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
first of all WP:Civil. secondly the minimum you can win TdF is once, he won twice. There are 20 people who have done that. are we planning to post all their deaths if we post this one? oppose -- Ashish-g55 01:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And if Carl Lewis died, I highly doubt we would post it. What's your point? What international impact did his death have? Also, isn't "ignorant...idiot" repetitive? --Smashvilletalk 13:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose His death is of little present significance, even if his life was. I think that's what we should focus on for ITN deaths. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose we dont go posting every death on ITN, there is a different place for death "recent deaths..."Lihaas (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose, ignorant American idiot solidarity. --Golbez (talk) 13:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'd like to suggest we all cease with the nationalistic slant of any kind here. It just leads to resentments which can turn into long-term grudges, which won't help the process of collaborative editing. Let's make a serious effort to understand each others' points of views, instead of indulging in name-calling. Thanks. Jusdafax 16:37, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose 2x winner isn't enough if 20 others have done that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although this death wasn't unexpected (he was 100), Varallo was the last survivor of the inaugural world cup and until last year was the record goalscorer for Boca Juniors --Daviessimo (talk) 12:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Historic landmark in a world sport. MickMacNee (talk) 13:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. Considering he was the last one... --Smashvilletalk 14:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The last survivor of the first World cup. There's a good blurb in there, and the story will go over well in countries that are big on the sport. Jusdafax 15:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note The update currently consists of "Varallo died on 30 August, 2010, in his hometown of La Plata at the age of 100" and is unreferenced. Ideally, we'd have a death section with a paragraph or 2 of information and reaction, but at the very least we need one decent sized, well sourced paragraph in the after retirement section. The rest of the article could also use some work, especially with sourcing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support being the record goalscorer for the Boca Juniors is a big deal, I believe they are one of the top few clubs in Argentina - and it sounds like he held that record for a long time. Not to mention being the sole survivor of the inaugural world cup. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This has the support to go up, what it doesn't have is the update or the sourcing. Courcelles 17:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added references to the article from the English language obituaries, but am struggling with the death section, mainly because 3/4 of the news articles are in Spanish and my grasp of the language is minimal. Argentina is a football mad country so I'm sure there are plenty of tributes out there... --Daviessimo (talk) 19:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some more sources, this looks ready to go. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted The article looks fine to go. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, please feel free to suggest a better blurb. There are a few ways this one could be done. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC - I'm sure we have in the past posted the arrests (as opposed to convictions) of major criminals and I think this fella falls into this category. He is wanted in the US, but has been arrested in Mexico. Thoughts? --Daviessimo (talk) 08:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose see the Pakistan cricket betting below.(Lihaas (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
But there is a precedent with known criminals to post the arrest, rather than conviction, particularly when there is an arrest warrant or extradition papers have been filed --Daviessimo (talk) 09:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Business stories don't usually make it, but considering HP is a tech company it could be of interest to our tech-savvy readers. ~DCLet's Vent 03:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, an underrepresented topic and the company seems to be very large and to have an international presence. No link? Here is The Sydney Morning Herald. --candle•wicke 05:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose goldman was fined, there are countless companies fined/failed and they have no reason to go up. Whatr about M&A? much bigger if you need corporate ITN. Potash for some $20billion, yesterday 3M's Cogent for $1billion..(Lihaas (talk) 06:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose - I don't see any significance. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 07:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Goldman or Citibank you expect. For me this is unusual due to the perception, rightly or wrongly, that HP was that rarity, an honest and user friendly corporation. I think this story will prove of interest worldwide; many of us are using HP gear. Jusdafax 07:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Satyam Corp. -- who would have expected such widespread fraud?talk) 06:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Can't even find a mention of it in the HP article. Maybe I'm missing it. --Smashvilletalk 15:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pakistan match-fixing allegations
Surprised no one has brought this but its all over the international news, even the American (CNN) has it (and thats saying something for cricket). To paraphrase the story: News of the World published an article alleging they had paid 4 Pakistani cricketers and there were apparently 3 made-to-order no-balls as per the what was "paid" for. Then there was an arrest and an investigation by british police of the cricketers, the investigation was to spread to some 82 tests including a supposedly famous victory by Australia against Pakistan (which has brought other allegations and reaction (including that they had been approached) and reaction from across Pakistani politics).
Dont know where the article is, but is this certainly big news like the match-fixing about a decade ago that finished the careers of Hansie Cronje and MOhammed Azharuddin, amongst others (Ajay Jadeja, etc)(Lihaas (talk) 03:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
This could be a major story, if the allegations prove true. The precedent for ITN is to hold-off on investigations/trials until a conclusion is reached. ~DCLet's Vent 03:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wait till something is actually proven or some real punishment given. by the looks of it that may not take too long. -- Ashish-g55 04:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wait - Agree that we should until more is known. I'm fairly certain that the NotW evidence is inadmissible in court because it is hidden camera footage. I personally would see what the ICC do. If they hand life bans to any players or ban Pakistan from international test cricket for a period then I think that will be the big story... --Daviessimo (talk) 08:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support after punishment is announced assuming they are guilty of course. I'd prefer a link to spot-fixing (which I created) rather than match fixing as the allegations relate only to no balls AFAIK Francium12 16:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
you can update the Pak-eng test page to reflect this if you feel so Lihaas (talk) 01:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Four Israeli settlers, including a pregnant woman, are shot dead in a shooting outside Kiryat Arba, when a gunman opens fire on their car. Hamas claims responsibility for the murder. (Haaretz)
3,200 police officers have been fired so far this year by Mexico's federal police force due to extracurricular activities. (BBC)(AP via France24)(Aljazeera)
The Indian government decides not to ban the controversial BlackBerry devices for at least two months after the North American manufacturer allows "lawful access" to encrypted data it had been feared would be a security threat. (Aljazeera)(BBC)
Talks begin between the government and workers striking for better conditions in South Africa in the third week of a conflict which has seen troops deployed. (BBC)(TIMES Live)(Reuters)
- 6 deaths8 deaths, 19 injured after a shooting in the capital of Slovakia. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems significant - though the article needs significant improvement. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - but wait until it is clear what was going on. --Tone 10:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Probably someone will start a AFD discussion quickly.- Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 10:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditionally it sounds reasonable as per the various shooting in Germany/Finland. but it needs more info as to what happened/why/response, etc.
Also, someone should attack the relevant WikiProjects to the talk pages {{Disaster management}} as well as Slovakia, etc.(Lihaas (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Comment this looks ready to post. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't this significance here at all. ~DCLet's Vent 18:09, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hey? Where are you from? In Europe for example the last similar event occurred in Dec 2009 in Finland. In US that happens two or three per week. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Connecticut mass shooting was the biggest one in the U.S. this year and the biggest in Connecticut in 20 years. The common refrain from non-Americans during the vote on the Connecticut shooting that that kind of thing is an everyday occurrence in America is another example of people making ITN votes without knowing what they're talking about, and I'm sorry if that ticks people off to hear, but it's unarguable. Oh, and by the way, there was a 12-death shooting spree in England in June. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Telegraph "Slovakia...experienced some shooting incidents involving criminal gangs in the 1990s, but has had no large-scale shootings in recent years." I know it's vague but it's the best I could find. ~DCLet's Vent 23:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Outside the US these things happen far more rarely. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral. These things are a lot rarer in Europe than they are in the US and the article is well-developed, but 6 deaths isn't that many and this event doesn't seem to have had much impact on anything—it's just a madman shooting some people. If some controversy is generated from this, if it's part of some ongoing political struggle or if something else come to light that makes it more than just a madman with a gun, I might support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
comment is there anything special about this shooting other than country? The ratio of nutjobs to normal people maybe slightly higher in US but i dont think thats a good enough argument to put this on unless something special took place. For ex. hostage situation in the bus shootout -- Ashish-g55 21:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Early indications suggest it was unprovoked, just a tosser with some guns in the streets of Bratislava. He did kill a family of gypsies, but the significance of that (possible attempt at genocide?) is unclear and likely will remain so for long enough to make this stale. f o x 22:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support including because it is (i) unusual for the continent and can't recall anything similar ever having occurred in Slovakia, (ii) the event took place in more than one location and it was necessary to warn people to stay indoors, (iii) perhaps Bratislava being the country's capital and largest city is important as well, perhaps not (iv) article is developed. Those reasons hopefully avoid any references to the United States or that a similar rare and fatal incident in the United Kingdom was posted recently. --candle•wicke 22:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support with the opinion that we should have had the Connecticut shooting as well. Contrary to what you might think, shootings of such magnitude do not happen all the time in America and (you know what comes next) it's absurd that given two pretty much identical events, we would run the one from a country where less than 0.5% of our readership comes from and not the one from where most of our readership resides. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on the sole criterion that the sourcing is a disaster--most of the attacks and all of the perpetrator and victims sections are unreferenced, and I don't have time to find stuff ATM. If that's addressed, than I would support this. C628 (talk) 22:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Just another article from our WP:NOTNEWS' fan Eugen Simion. No historical significance. Take these articles to Wikinews! Diego Grez (talk) 00:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A report on al jazeera just showed the context of the attack with the death of an unusually high number of Roma, which goes in hand with the general antiziganist feeling in Europe right now, especially in the light of France's expulsiosn and general sentiment in Italy.
Ill in fact turn my vote into a strong support (when and if the article discusses all this) Lihaas (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I could yet bring myself to support this, but the article isn't up to scratch. If the whole thing were properly sourced, it could sway me. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:05, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article has a good shape. Somebody will have to post the deadliest civilian attack in the history of modern Slovakia. Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 10:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - deadliest attack since Slovakian independence certainly seems significant in my opinion --Daviessimo (talk) 10:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone get rid of the bare URL's in the citations? It can't hit the main page like that. Courcelles 17:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there are now a couple of totally unreferenced sections. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The IP seems to keep adding all these unreferenced bits. Either fact them and await or remove. It should be ready for posting soon enough.Lihaas (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator noteThere are several massive chunks of totally unsourced information. I can't put an article on the MP like that. They need to be sourced or removed, but removing them doesn't leave us with much about the aftermath or reaction, which I would expect to see in an article on an incident more than 36 hours ago. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The IP doesn't have to add sources - someone else could do that ;) - I'd have done it if it wasn't bedtime when I posted here that it needed doing. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 06:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've removed the media section and added sources for the rest of the article, it should now be ready to post. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Fifth update, September 2) President Obama has declared an emergency exists in North Carolina and has asked federal authorities to assist in the area. This now Category four hurricane first impacted the northern Leeward Islands and islands north and is currently moving in on the United States Atlantic coast. Thankfully Earl has not done a great deal of major damage but several U.S. states are now in a declared state of emergency, with evacuations underway and headlines in papers for days. I still feel this is a good candidate, with an excellent and currently up-to-date article already written and being maintained (click on the title/Wiki-link.)
oppose huricanes are not ITN-worthy just for making landfall. If it is catastrophic then it can be renominated, but it would be WP:Crystal ball to assume its importance before the actions itself.Lihaas (talk) 09:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]
I agree, we do not use ITN for alerts, other websites do that. Wait until the landfall and then we'll see. Hurricanes otherwise often get to ITN because of the damage they cause. --Tone 10:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I don't know about this. There are some reports it could hit lower parts of the United States (probably exaggeration by the media, however) or bits of the Caribbean - I may support if it hits somewhere big, but the the Leeward Islands, probably not. Oppose - f o x 21:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support only after landfall (which is expected around 0000 UTC Friday (Thursday night local time)). ~DCLet's Vent 04:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not yet noteworthy. Agree with Lihaas that if it becomes a disaster, then it is noteworthy (God forbid). Nightw 07:42, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Seems to be getting a lot of media attention. YETropicalCyclone 14:01, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support upon entry into the Gulf Streamor if it accumulates a significant death toll. ~AH1(TCU) 19:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support This one could rapidly wind up and the forecast track doesn't look good either. HurricaneSpinTalk 23:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support iff the blurb is about caribbean damage and not a hurricane forecast for US. this is not weather network. when it does damage in US we can post that. none of this crap where the blurb was focused on it moving towards US with a mention of deaths elsewhere at the end. -- Ashish-g55 02:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as nominator. We are reaching the point where millions of people's lives are being disrupted, and the story is dominating the news cycle in the USA, and getting significant play elsewhere. Not to have this story leading off ITN on the Main page today is just wrong, in my opinion. Casualities, schmasualites. Post the story already. Jusdafax 09:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, now it got bad enough (too bad...). Ready to post. Please, suggest a good blurb. --Tone 10:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a slight rewording of the last blurb version, I'm using the word "impacts" because that is true now and will stay fresh. May have to update further as we go, obviously.) Jusdafax 10:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Battered"? Bit tabloid-y. Still against this really, unless things get slow (only really mildly against it, would support if it actually hit somewhere identifiable (i.e. NC)) f o x 10:34, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Hurricane Earl article, 180,000 people were left without electric power in the islands, so I think "battered" is not inaccurate. Consensus achieved, blurb proposed.Jusdafax 10:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could this be made shorter and without mentioning the US officials and concentrate on the effects? --Tone 11:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the BBC, the above may have lead to the extinction of dinosaurs 65 millions years ago. ~DCLet's Vent 03:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm certainly inclined to support, subject to any sciency types telling us that it's all a hoax or insignificant or suchlike.--Mkativerata (talk) 03:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The reporting is somewhat misleading. Boltysh, at 24 km in scale, is unlikely to cause planetary devastation. We only have to look back ~5 Myr to find a crater bigger than that. By contrast, the the Chicxulub Crater is 170 km in diameter and is the largest known event in more than a billion years. In rough numbers, the Chicxulub impactor would have been ~350 times more massive than the Boltysh one. The significance of Boltysh is whether or not it suggests some sort of impact swarm at the time of Chicxulub. It was already known that Bolytsh was of the same age as Chicxulub to within a few hundred thousand years, so the suggestion of a swarm is not actually new. The new research is suggesting that these events are separated by only a few thousand years (and that Chicxulub is definitively more recent by those few thousand years, so not simultaneous). Scientifically, this is interesting, but I'm not sure the "new" part of this news (i.e. tighter age constraints) is really all that impressive for ITN. Dragons flight (talk) 04:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose (though weakly) as it a vague report that doesnt seem affirmed or supported widely, unless we are to believe the community has lent it some solid credence.Lihaas (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support upon verification, given that it is one of the major impacts near or at the K-T boundary and could indicate a cometary break-up that led to multiple collisions either over a long period or a much shorter period. ~AH1(TCU) 19:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC - "the first indigenous person to do so in the country's history".
The Age - "Mr Wyatt's Aboriginal background attracted significant media attention during the campaign".
The Voice of Russia - "Australia has officially elected its first Aborigine to the House of Representatives, RIA-Nososti reports".
Radio Netherlands - "An Aboriginal man has been elected to Australia's House of Representatives, becoming the first indigenous MP in the country's history".
Toronto Sun - "Ken Wyatt won a seat in Australia's House of Representatives Sunday, becoming the first Aboriginal to do so in the country's history".
Press TV - "An Aboriginal man has been elected to Australia's House of Representatives, pledging an all-out battle against racism in the pacific nation".
The Daily Telegraph - "An Aboriginal Australian has been elected to the country’s parliament for the first time".
It's a piece of history, reported internationally and there seems to have been a shortage of ITNs recently. --candle•wicke 03:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Barack Obama gets the same stuff. That doesn't make ITN ~DCLet's Vent 03:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose is the story the fact that he got elected or that he received all the hate mail? If the former then per Mkativerata i would still oppose it, and if the latter the object of hate mail is not noteworthy of itself.Lihaas (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose. This isn't even current. He was elected 10 days ago. --Smashvilletalk 18:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The third Aborigine in Federal parliament and it's not as though he has more power or a higher post than the two before him YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why this isn't WP:ITNR, but it probably should be (hell, the BAFTA Awards aren't either). Not sure what the blurb would be, but it's something to consider, especially since 6 of the 8 stories on ITN now are older than 4 days. ~DCLet's Vent 02:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, the Emmies are domestic (eg British shows wouldn't be considered for the main awards). Perhaps that's why they're not on ITN/R. Anyway, subject to correction by any entertainment/TV types, I'm inclined to oppose.--Mkativerata (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Too US-centric, no importance in the rest of the world, or really in the States, either, where the Oscars are the big deal. Courcelles 10:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support was on the BBC this morning so has international interest - seems more interesting than most of the other stuff up for inclusion. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ok i dont think international interest can be denied since these shows are not just watched in US. yes they dont give awards to british shows or some other country but then we should add those not prevent emmy's from going up. if others feel like there are some that are equally famous/important please suggest. currently TV shows dont really make it to ITN for anything. so support iff its added to ITNR at same time. cant have this debate every damn year -- Ashish-g55 13:10, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, precedence notwithstanding. When taking into account mitigating circumstances such as a slow news season, and recent complaints about the negativity of WP:ITN as of late, this seems like a sufficient candidate to add some variety. Plus, as pointed out above, the story has been covered in news sources outside of the United States. I'm not saying this is necessarily comparable to Eurovision, but North America doesn't really have an equivalent to that short of the Emmys.--WaltCip (talk) 13:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Making good TV is expensive so not that many countries make TV which is regularly exported internationally. Other than the US the other country which makes a decent amount of high quality English language TV is the UK - so the BAFTA's would be appropriate. The US produces far more TV that is watched internationally than the UK though.
I'd imagine that the Indians also do and that appropriate awards for them - and definitely for Bollywood movies - should be on ITN/R too. Japanese anime awards could possibly also be worthy of posting - if the articles are up to it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on the blurb. What would we put on ITN? Just the fact that the ceremony took place is not enough. Is there a single winner that we could highlight? --Tone 13:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to post this, because the timer is red and this has a stronger consensus at the minute than the shooting, which is the only other candidate that could be considered ready for posting. Discussion on whether it should be added to ITN/R can take place on WT:ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we switch it to my wording. Drama and comedy prize sound awkward. ~DCLet's Vent 21:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support - highly recommend adding this (and probably the BAFTAs) to ITNR. f o x 22:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A small semi-train is driven through the streets of Gaza after six months of construction, to the delight of children living in harsh conditions. (Xinhua)
At least 38 people, including the driver, are killed in Ecuador when a bus falls down a cliff outside the capital Quito, reportedly after the driver fell asleep. (Reuters Africa)(Sky News Australia)
Toy Story 3 becomes the first animation movie to gross over $1 billion.
Since very few updates have been posted recently. Nergaal (talk) 18:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Trivial, unless is breaks Avatar's record, it doesn't have the significance for the main page. Courcelles 19:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until/if it is the highest grossing film ever. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting anything that's the highest-grossing in some genre that conveniently omits some other film that was the highest-grossing. We should limit the ITN slot to the highest-grossing film. Full stop. In other words, when something comes along and beats Avatar's record, I'll support, but not before. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the exact same reason as last time. Avatar was mostly animated...most movies these days involve CGI animation...so...where's the cut off? --Smashvilletalk 15:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, posting. --Tone 10:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What about the photo in the article? Looks good, even if it isn't of eruptive activity. If you use it you will have to add (pictured) of course. But I'm sick of that bus and we need a new photo. Also the tense is wrong in my blurb, the correct form is produces - thanks. Jusdafax 10:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Photo added, tense has been changed. I haven't spotted that before, thanks for mentioning. --Tone 10:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One other thing and I hate to bring this up. Images are an area I'm not real strong in. I just noticed the photo has a 'deprecated!' tag on it. I have no idea what that means, but I thought I'd best bring it up now that I see it. Jusdafax 10:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this added after only some 2 hours of debate (not saying this was wrong per se), but the SOlomon Islands ITN is lying ignored DESPITE a majority vote to support its addition?(Lihaas (talk) 11:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Last of the Summer Wine
Frankly, I can't stand the programme, and will not be at all disappointed if it does not make ITN, but at the beginning of the current, last ever series of the world's longest running sitcom (insert unpopular political party or rival sports team of your choice here as an alternative) it was proposed that this go up, and the consensus was to wait until the broadcast of the final episode, which is tonight. Kevin McE (talk) 08:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So that the level of consensus then may be considered, June's discussion went thus:
The BBC cancel Last of the Summer Wine, the longest-running sitcom in Britain and the world. (BBC)
I know there are more important events going on here, but I thought I would just mention this. - JuneGloom07Talk? 17:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*I'm sorry, June, I could get behind this in a slow news week... but this isn't a slow news week. Getting it ran as today's FA on the day the finale screens would be my suggestion.Courcelles (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*It's fine. Like you said, if it was a slow news week... - JuneGloom07Talk? 18:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I agree with Courcelles. It is not really a big news story. ISD (talk) 18:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*SupportIF it is indeed the longest running sitcom in the world, a fact on which I have some doubts. MickMacNee (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*I don't know but I have been able to find sources saying it is.
**The Press Association - "Last Of The Summer Wine has now run to more than 30 series and is the world's longest-running sitcom".
**RTÉ - "The BBC has announced that its golden years comedy series 'Last of the Summer Wine', the world's longest-running TV sitcom, is to end".
Leaning towards oppose. And as I see, what I wanted to say (maybe, if it was a slow news week) has already been presented. --Tone 21:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Per the article, the cancellation of the show was merely announced. The show is supposed to cease airing AFTER the current season (which has not begun) concludes. And we've seen in the past where networks have changed their minds about cancellations. Until the last episode runs, there is no reason to post this. However, when the last episode runs and the show has actually reached its conclusion, I will support. --Smashvilletalk 21:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, at least until the final episode airs. Also, I hadn't realised it was still running, thought it ended years ago! Modest Geniustalk 14:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As suggested back then, it is TFA today. Kevin McE (talk) 09:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems pretty notable as well. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, after all, a consensus has been reached before and the article is a FA. But we should wait until it airs, there is also no update in the article yet (just says it will end this summer). --Tone 08:56, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I missed the fact that it is TFA. --Tone 09:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose even if its the longest running show (which would give it credence akin to a long running play taken off stage), its only ITN-worthy when it ends (ie- the final episode airs) not if the season just started.(Lihaas (talk) 11:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Uh, the last episode screens today. The discussion above was for context, and dates back to June (when the final series started. TFOWR 11:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why was this added in only 2 hours of discussion (note that this was a bad move, per se), but the Solomon Islands election which does have more support than opposition still is neglected? Meant to add to the volcano debate above.Lihaas (talk) 11:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Uh (again!) it's not been added. It's today's featured article, and I doubt it'll get posted to ITN. TFOWR 11:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Heh! Makes sense. Philip's election as PM now on ITN anyway (cheers, Tone!) TFOWR 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that would be redundant to the max. Jusdafax 11:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am actually willing to post the Solomon islands when I get one more support, see below. --Tone 11:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would support this inclusion if it wasnt for the FA on the main page covering it. Its very sad its the final episode (ill have to tune in for the first time in years), and then on tuesday the end of The Bill. Sigh =( BritishWatcher (talk) 11:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because (and only because) it's the TFA. The purpose of ITN is to draw attention to articles updated to reflect some sort of current event. This meets all the criteria, but it's being drawn attention to by it's slot on TFA. If we don't feature D-Day or the Hiroshima bombing on two sections of the Main Page at the same time, we shouldn't do so with this. Had it not been TFA today, though, I would have supported without hesitation. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ^this. Having it twice is a bit much. f o x 16:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I think we should only post records that have (a) stood for an unusually long period of time; or (b) are a significant historical milestone. As this guy is merely breaking his own record of a couple of weeks ago, we shouldn't post it. Maybe if he breaks 1:40 because that would be considered a significant milestone in track history.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. He broke the record. Good for him. He broke his own record a few days later. Meh. As Mkativerata says, though, a case could be made for posting a new record if it breaks 1:40. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This would be a new record though..In that case ill weak support it.(Lihaas (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
There are so many world records that we can't list them all. For example in swimming, in the last years, several have been set at every championship. The 800m record stood for more than 10 years - and now it is the same athlete who improved it. Conditional support if he gets below 1:40, I agree. --Tone 10:44, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not notable event. Diego Grez (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support if he breaks the record three times in a row in a short period of time (i.e. within a few months). If a record stood for 10 years then a guy comes and breaks it three times in a row in a short period that is really notable. Nergaal (talk) 00:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suspected Taliban insurgents attack two coalition allied military bases in eastern Afghanistan; both attacks are repelled by coalition forces, killing 24 militants while taking no casualties. (BBC)
Business and economy
Cuba eases property laws, allowing foreign investors to lease government land for up to 99 years. (AP)(Al Jazeera)
International relations
China and India state that the military ties between the two countries will not be affected despite the recent visa dispute.[7][8]
Per the message in the box above, Iran answers Lebanon call to help fund its following the American threats to cut off funds on fears that they would reach Hezbollah following a clash on the southern border earlier. In light of the tensions mounting and threats of war between Iran and israel (and Syria) this is another step in the lead to a possible wider conflict. It also further stregnthens Iran's ties to the country beyond Hezbollah. (where the opposition is growing in both potency and popularity it seems, its not just a "marginalised" Shia Lebanese thing anymore) Its also somewhat akin to the Colombia-Venezuela flare up we posted a few weeks ago.
btw- i hope this is a good explanation of events/relevants(Lihaas (talk) 03:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Marc Ravalomanana sentencing
Considering a slow news week, i think this might warrant an ITN if the article is well covered. A former head of state sentenced to life in prison is not something that happens everyday or everywhere. Not akin to international coverage that Omar Bashir got, but still.(Lihaas (talk) 01:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose since nothing much has happened. He was sentenced last February as well and the court has handed down another token sentence, but he's currently in exile, so the chances of him actually serving his sentence in the near future are slim. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A 5.7 earthquake hits Iran killing 3, injuring dozens. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 08:10, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Numbers are too small; similar ones occur too frequently. SpencerT♦C 15:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, probably a merge to 2010 earthquakes would be relevant in this case. --Tone 16:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Eugen Simion, I strongly suggest you to submit these articles to Wikinews, the free news source, not Wikipedia. That earthquake has not provoked mayor damage, and has no historical significance (I'm sure Iran has had stronger earthquakes). So, no. Diego Grez (talk) 02:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Barely noticeable. These kinds of quakes occur every day all over the world and 5.7 isn't that strong. I'll AfD the article in the morning if nobody beats me to it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The al-Shabaab rebel group in Somalia says it has called 11 truckloads of reinforcements to take over the capital Mogadishu after a week-long battle. (Al Jazeera)
At least 43 people are killed in the violence. (Press TV)
Sri Lanka urges Saudi Arabia to investigate the case of a Sri Lankan maid who had nails and needles pushed into her by her employers as a "punishment". Doctors later remove 24 nails and needles from her body. (Arab News)(Lanka Business Online)(BBC)
conditional support was the referendum posted on ITN. if not, one can include it in the blurb, if so then i oppose this second addition.(Lihaas (talk) 11:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
I seemed to remember the vote going up, but noticed the article was never tagged, so I'm not so sure now. Courcelles 16:46, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should have trusted myself, seems I reworded the item myself! A different article than I was thinking was tagged, but that's not enough to put this back up a mere 3 weeks later. Courcelles 16:48, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is largely a bulleted list right now, and I don't think this is the kind of subject matter we can assume the community will improve to a great extent. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose cant do this every time some american gets released. ie- those 2 in N. Korea last time. What about the the spaniards in Mauritania? or the the death of the frenchman following a french raid in the Sahel (far more notable in the precedence set through the course of actions)(Lihaas (talk) 05:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose Stubborn missionaries are always disobeying the law and entering and preaching illegally. Too bad. They know the law of the country, we can't have these pointless sob stories and then for death row drug traffickers as well. No YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:19, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose He broke the law, he got arrested and, tried, convicted, and put in jail. Honestly, folks, where's the story? That Pyongyang can be swayed by ex-Presidents to release criminals is curious, but not really significant. Courcelles 11:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the article is good enough to link to from ITN, but I wish people wouldn't let their personal opinions about stories influence their votes. Our decisions should be based on ITN criteria, not what we think about a guy. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
and I would argue as humans it is impossible for editors (or anybody else) to completely dissociate their actions from how they perceive the incident. this happens both at conscious and subconscious levels, is not under voluntary control and this is what makes us human. if we want total objectivity then perhaps we should have a computer program select the items but that too will be affected by the personality of the programmer. having said that I was surprised by unanimous opposition to this. apparently being an American and a proselytizer will not get you !votes on ITN.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC. 64000 year old arrows found. "Closer inspection of the ancient weapons revealed remnants of blood and bone that provided clues about how they were used." "The discovery pushes back the development of 'bow and arrow technology' by at least 20,000 years." The old flute turned out to be most supported item ever. Now we found an arrow. -- Ashish-g55 20:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems significant. What's the article? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support on the condition that an article or expanded section of one can be created or already exists. Jusdafax 21:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support provided an adequate update / article can be created--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
updated Arrowhead with whatever info i could get out of the article. I dont have access to actual research paper but like the flute only so much can be added since its ancient discovery. -- Ashish-g55 03:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
per another nomination below, a paragraph withina subsection doesnt warrant space for ITN, is there more? perhaps as to its importance/precedence in the field of archaeology?
weak oppose in the interim, can be easily made to change my vote ;)(Lihaas (talk) 05:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
yes I would agree we need more substatntial update otherwise what happened to Chinese traffic jam may happen here too.--Wikireader41 (talk) 06:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, what's the situation with this one? We have a paragraph of update, the found has been published in a journal, there are references... Ready to post? --Tone 16:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks that way to me, just need a blurb. Courcelles 16:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Timer's red, so posting. f o x 23:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
please try and follow the ITN adding procedure. the clock needs to be reset, credits... etc. dont care too much but its nice to see those -- Ashish-g55 01:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was just going to say, can someone reset the clock because its not been 24 hours.Lihaas (talk) 05:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.167.176.43 (talk) [reply]
Timer reset, roughly. I think it's actually an hour too fast, but close enough and no longer red. Courcelles 08:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I actually edit-conflicted with Courcelles. My bad. f o x 08:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, as for the credits, I had to sleep. ;) I'll get that the now. f o x 08:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Khimki Forest
"Amid protests, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev suspends the construction a highway project that could have endagered the Khimki Forest."[10] Article has been updated. Offliner (talk) 17:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A significant environmental story that has gone to the top excecutive in power. ~AH1(TCU) 17:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose 1. international coverage? havent seen this in prominence, 2. isnt this a continuation of forest fires in the country already posted?(Lihaas (talk) 23:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose/Conditional support - The term suspension implies that construction is liable to be reinitiated at any time. And at the very least, there's nothing within the blurb that suggests the construction was halted as a result of the protests. Perhaps change the wording to reflect this?--WaltCip (talk) 07:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Support - I've been looking around and see this story gaining attention. I have added a sourced paragraph to the WP article noting the U2 frontman Bono took a stand against the highway route through the forest at a concert in front of 60,000 fans; the project was suspended by the Russian chief-of-state the next day. This ups the ante on the story considerably. The article isn't perfect but it's close to decent, I'd say. Good international story with broad appeal for ITN, in my view. Jusdafax 07:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC) Proposed blurb:[reply]
Amid protests including an appeal by rock star Bono of the band U2, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev suspends highway construction through the Khimki Forest greenbelt outside of Moscow. Jusdafax 07:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is a local-interest environmentalist story. __meco (talk) 07:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - All you have to do is Google 'Khimki Forest' to see coverage from around the globe. I urge you to dig a bit deeper, as I originally was unimpressed until I looked into this. Further: the involvement of an international rock star and a chief-of-state negate your point, in my view. Jusdafax 07:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the international aspect does lend more credibility, but are there sources that affirm the connection to the suspension. What i've read so far was an appeal by Putin to Medvedev (this itself could be something) to halt it on behalf of United Russia.Lihaas (talk) 23:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a local interest story with some international attention but not much. I can't currently see any mention of it on the BBC News website or CNN.com.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: minimal international interest; Strongly oppose any "celeb" driven agenda here. Kevin McE (talk) 11:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, if it's green and there's a bullet flying towards it, Bono's there to jump in the way. Nothing too unusual to see him involved. f o x 08:56, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Star. Had to read a lot to figure out why this is "historic move". Canada banned it from baby bottles and a large part of the world followed it as apparent from the article. "Canada had been the first country in the world to declare that it intended to label BPA a toxic substance. Even now, the action would have international resonance". I dont know how the banning procedure will work and if will just be banned on some particular day. Most likely it will be a phase out so the intent to ban is most likely going to be of much more interest. -- Ashish-g55 20:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I love that nomination but think we need a different blurb, anyone got a blurb? Mr. R00tTalk 20:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. even though a story out of Canada would be nice once in a while I doubt this is it. could not find much international coverage at all. "estrogen-like effects are suspected of creating havoc with hormone levels." !!!!! maybe Physchim62 will comment on this[11]--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
this isn't really a story that would get international coverage right away. most people will not know what it is. this has encyclopedic value thats all. Estrogen effects in men cant be a good thing lol. -- Ashish-g55 13:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well this is ITN and we are discussing what is "in the news". the medpage article seems to suggest that it increases testosterone levels in men and has no effect on women. unless you have prostate cancer increasing testosterone levels in men generally is a good thing. anyway would love to see more Canadian stories on ITN for sure.--Wikireader41 (talk) 14:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I love to see science stories on ITN, but only if there's a good reason behind them. This story is (unfortunately) rather "run-of-the-mill". Changing the classification of BPA from "harmful" to "toxic" is not a huge move, it just means you've killed a few more rats... The European Union Risk Assessment Report from February 2010 concluded that BPA "[met] the T criterion" (ie, it's toxic, see p 139 of the PDF file). The human cohort study cited by Wikireader is interesting, and is consistent with many other studies, but I don't think it's enough on its own to justify an ITN story: we would really need its inclusion in the Rotterdam Convention, which is a long way off. Physchim62(talk) 18:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Already we have another news like this on ITN but IMO 20 deaths it's pretty big. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I have to ask, what is the point of creating an "article" whose only content is On August 25, 2010, at least 20 people were killed in Congo after a plane crash near Bandundu? Seriously, that's just enough to escape speedy deletion under A1. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or for that matter, On 24 August 2010 a plane crash in Nepal.[13]Modest Geniustalk 17:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those bullet points will need to be converted into prose and the references could do with proper formatting. I'm currently neutral on this one. On the one hand, these attacks are far from uncommon, but on the other, 50 seems an unusually high death toll. I could be swayed by a decent article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:46, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree the article needs some work. I will be unable to do it myself for the next several hours, so if anyone wants to take a swing at it, that would be great. I see that Reuters has the number of dead at over 60.Jusdafax 19:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was just going to nominate this and ask if there is a page, i see there is one. Over 50 dead and about 200 wounded which is a busy day even for the iraqi insurgency so support when the article is get set to go.
update: ive added some more and cleaned it a bit, but it can sure use more. (including ref cleanup)Lihaas (talk) 02:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Done I think the article is decent now, and my thanks to Lihaas for getting the ball rolling on the article work. I have additionally expanded it, and cleaned up all refs. I'd like to see some reasonably rapid feedback; I now Support per HJ Mitchell's comment - these particular attacks are unusual, and the timing re: the announced U.S. pullout date, and the co-ordinated 13 city, Iraq-wide scope, make this a good ITN addition. Jusdafax 04:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support from me but it would be good to convert the refs into citenews format so we know who published them. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Refs are now all citenews. Jusdafax 06:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Proposed blurb:[reply]
Thanks, and my thanks to all who made this one possible. A very sad story, obviously, but good job getting it to ITN. Jusdafax 11:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
could someone (tariqabjotu, the admin in this case) lock the page as its filling with rubbish vandalism/test edits now that its on the main page.Lihaas (talk) 02:09, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - significant and timely, but withdrawing support if there is no direct article or reasonably-detailed section in the article. Jusdafax 14:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Significant event. ~AH1(TCU) 14:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, once update completed and/or article created. I think an appropriate place to start would be Mexican Drug War#Escalation, but this may warrant an article of its own as well. Ks0stm(T•C•G) 15:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My personal opinion is that this should be covered in an existing article, where the reader can access all the relevant background information. There seems little to be gained from creating an entirely new article. Regardless, we need an update somewhere. the consensus seems pretty clear, so the update is the only thing holding it back. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We can certainly do something like that for all the Iraq/Afghan/Pakistan attacks to put on pne page per year (with sections for details) instead of hordes of new articles. (i admit ive done this too)Lihaas (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
except that notable attacks occur in those parts of the world so frequently that any attempt to have a single article cover everything would break WP:LIMIT--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose i may be outnumbered in the tally, but this is the first response in regard to the article. The article itself it just 1 paragraph that is an assortment of paraphrases from various sources. Dont think it adds anything new. especially since notability is not affirmed by official sources (whose reactions would indicate severity) on either side of the border.Lihaas (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Without a decent and/or direct article I'll have to strike my support and join you in an OpposeJusdafax 10:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. As per above, a specific article on this event is not required and a better way of linking is directly to the Mexican Drug War article. There is no policy that states a specific article is required for the bold link. ~AH1(TCU) 17:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
True enough, but as I see it the five lines devoted to the killings in the lengthy article are unsuitable, as Lihaas has noted. The information badly needs expanding. I am sorry to change my support, but I don't think directing main page readers to this stub of a mention is proper. Happy to reconsider if some enhancement is created. Jusdafax 21:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The text has been moved by someone to Timeline of the Mexican Drug War. Is there any point of updating that further? Is the article itself good enough for the main page? — Cargoking talk 10:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
timeline is similar to the drugs war page. Arent there more details and reactions as suggested above? It would increase notability if the mexican/usa leadership said something at least as to how grave the situation is becoming..Lihaas (talk) 11:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Nominate the election of Danny Philip as Prime Minister of the Solomon Islands following the general election. The article just needs to be expanded to reflect the election. Scanlan (talk) 01:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The general election page is more suited to get on as the main bold article. (it was nominated before but rejected becasue the article was not up to scratch, if it was however it would certainly be ITN-Worth)(Lihaas (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
True the general election article needs some work, but there is a precendent on ITN for highlighting a change in the top leadership of a nation. Scanlan (talk) 11:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - but surely in a parliamentary system the elected political party is more important than the leader, because that is who the population are voting for --Daviessimo (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
can always improve the election article...Lihaas (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - population not high enough to be significant internationally. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ITN rules say all sovereign states (as opposed to partial recognition or subnational entities) get the election results published.Lihaas (talk) 03:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a rule, that's a recurring item listing, which is an "an attempt to standardize which (items) get included," according to WP:ITN/R. I think we are being way too -- I don't know what the word is, "mathematical," perhaps? -- if we're going to say all events of type X and no events of type Y get included, no matter what. Any item has to meet the original ITN criteria: be in the news, be "of wide interest to the encyclopedia's readers" and either have quality, recently updated Wikipedia content behind it or be likely to see that content show up soon. Right now, the article has an expansion tag on it, and because of the relative obscurity of the subject matter, it's questionable whether people are going to improve the article enough to make it worth linking to on the Main Page. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Solomon Islands are a sovereign state, same as Russia amd China. A change of leadership should be featured in ITN, as it has in the past. Scanlan (talk) 15:07, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They may be sovereign but they're not the same as Russia or China. Oppose since it's not of wide enough interest. ~DCLet's Vent 17:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd certainly support any change of leadership in a country with a population of greater than about 5 million. Russia and China are definitely well into that category. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That leaves only twp countries in Oceania -- Australia and PNG, and leaves out countries such as NZ and Ireland, but you guys will probably add those two because one is in Europe and the other is mostly white. :P –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 08:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support New Zealand and Ireland as both are English speaking. However at least they are both fairly close to 5 million - the Solomon islands are nowhere near. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's the point -- Even if you'd add up the rest of Oceania excluding PNG, Australia and NZL I don't think they'd reach 5 million. We'd be omitting several countries' elections from ITN. Granted I don't think anyone cares about elections in Pitcairn Island, or even Eastern Island, but how about Fiji, this country, Vanuatu, etc.? If Samoa qualifies for the Rugby World Cup final they'd be there but their national elections won't. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 14:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A country the size of New Zealand - who on the scale of things seem pretty small are actually the 123rd biggest country which means there are 70 odd countries that are smaller than that.
Now admittedly Fiji is one I have actually heard of, but I'd be struggling to name more than about a dozen countries with a population lower than 4 million. Out of the countries bigger than about 5 million I could probably have a good go at naming the majority of them.
It seems unnecessary to post national elections in countries where there is less significance to the world than who the mayor or New York, London or any other major world city is.
That said if nothing else is suitable for posting I'll retract my oppose here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
nearly 24 hours since a posting, with nothign else happening above this election page (NOT the PM page) can get a belated posting with my [weak] supportLihaas (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]
What's missing in the article is how Philip was chosen as the new PM, otherwise it looks OK; I've seen other articles with worse states being added there. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 14:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've said this before, but using population as some indicator of the importance of a national election is fundamentally flawed. Whatever happened to applying the logic of "Correlation does not imply causation". Just because a country has a large population does not automatically mean its elections are more important than those with small populations. Ireland is well known in global politics due to issues over NI, yet its population is only just over 1/10th of that of Tanzania, a country I suspect most people couldn't locate on a map, let alone know anything about politically. Likewise, countries such as Bosnia, Kosovo, Cyprus, Palestine and Lebanon all have populations below 5m, but have been involved in major global geo-political issues over the last 20 years. I mean, are we really advocating ignoring elections in Bosnia or Lebanon on the basis that because they have populations <5m, they are somehow insignificant or unimportant? --Daviessimo (talk) 18:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three out of those five (Lebanon, Palestine and Bosnia) are pretty close to having a population of 5 million with a population of over 4 million apiece. And Ireland is in the same boat. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, stop. This is really not relevant here, if you want to discuss the notability of separate countries, discuss it on the talkpage, not on the nomination section. Regarding this nom, Philip's article has a sufficient update imo. --Tone 20:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
why isnt this on yet? its been so many hours and a majority of supporters..Lihaas (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC))[reply]
There is clearly not anything close to even a rough consensus on this one and not exactly a groundswell of support. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 08:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the timers red, and everything else looks even worse I Support as its a slow news week. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:05, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go and post "Danny Philip is elected Prime Minister of Solomon islands, following general election." when I get one more support. --Tone 09:01, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its 4-1 for addition..(Sanclan, Daviessmo, me, and Eraser head vs. DC. (Eraserhead's oppose was changed to support)
as an aside, the general election link being the bold part as per usual election coverage? Lihaas (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. As for bolding, Philip's article has more update IMO. Feel free to change it later. --Tone 11:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll Support as I was confused, I kept waiting for Solomon Islands general election, 2010 to get updated and it never did, but the Danny Philip article is fine. Jusdafax 11:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, ive just added some stuff to the election article from Phillips (As stuff not concerning him per se, was more suited to the election). can we change?(Lihaas (talk) 11:52, 29 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Scientists found a new solar system about 100 light years away. Not sure if an article exists yet, but I found plenty of press coverage. [14], [15], [16]. ~DCLet's Vent 21:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - this research has not yet been published or gone through peer review. Regardless of how interesting it may be, we should not be publishing science stories until they've been peer reviewed. Anyone can submit something to a journal, that's doesn't mean it's not a load of nonsense (actually in this case I'm pretty sure it's not, but the principle stands). Modest Geniustalk 21:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose these are found with such regularity that they're rarely "news" of general interest. Wait till they call us, then THAT will be news. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This discovery seems somewhat unusual given that the closest planet ("b") has a mass similar to Earth, although it's so close to its parent star that it's likely to be totally fried. ~AH1(TCU) 14:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds interesting, but would oppose until this information is formally published by a journal (per Modest Genius, essentially). NW(Talk) 15:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Technically, this headline is incorrect; there is only one solar system, as the term is specific to the system surrounding Sol. --Golbez (talk) 15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think "not published yet in a scientific journal" should exclude this from ITN. I believe it is often the case that a discovery gets the publicity and the headlines when it is announced, not when it is published. If I'm not mistaken, many of the previous exoplanet detections were featured on ITN before they were published in a journal. For example COROT-7b was featured on ITN on 4 February 2009, when the discovery was announced. But it was only published in October 2009.[17]Offliner (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the media has lax standards on when to report on a press conference / press release, doesn't mean we should too. You do appear to be right in the case of Corot-7b though (although the paper was accepted on 28 July 2009), that shouldn't have happened. Most scientists do the right thing and wait until peer review has been completed before publicising (for Nature and Science papers, they have to). Unfortunately it's the highly competitive fields where that doesn't always apply, because the temptation to 'scoop' other teams and get some PR is high. For the record, I think this would be a perfectly good ITN item, but a press release is not a reliable source of scientific information. Modest Geniustalk 16:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I made the same point about the Bank of Ireland robbery at the same time. But to be fair, back then if it wasn't for User:Candlewicke and User:BorgQueen, ITN would have collapsed. At least today we have the sufficient editors with an interest in ITN that a broader consensus is easier to reach.--Daviessimo (talk) 19:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that Wikipedia should have high standards, but I think we have a different opinion about the role of ITN. ITN stands for In The News and not for Daily Review of Scientific Journals. The discovery is in the news when it is announced, and this is when it when it should be featured on ITN. Unfortunately, I don't believe this planet system will receive any worldwide headlines when the article is published in a journal; at that point, it is no longer in the news. Offliner (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And by the way, we're still waiting for the publication of this story ;) 95.25.62.177 (talk) 20:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The notable thing about this story is the size of several planets found in this system. According to reports, they might be the first Earth-size mass planets ever found. News conference is tomorrow. Viriditas (talk) 23:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Finding the first (roughly) earth-sized exoplanets is pretty notable. Support if there is a new burst of news about it, even if not, it is worth considering based on the original news stories which got widespread play. Standing by. Jusdafax 06:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That paper refers to a completely different star and set of planets. Are you suggesting this as a separate nomination? Because it does nothing to address the problems with posting HD 10180. Modest Geniustalk 17:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies. Major news stories are reporting both discoveries as a single story,[19] hence the confusion. The news item should mention both as well. Viriditas (talk) 19:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment note that the press release does contain the actual research paper as submitted to the journal [20], admittedly this does not meet the peer review criterion (but then this is "in the news", not "what's been peer reviewed"), but it is more than the typical press release. Icalanise (talk) 17:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support assuming the article is good enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support. Having read through the previous discussion I support any angle mentioned for posting this now. __meco (talk) 18:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting story, I've seen this for the past few day son a few newsites. But it started 10 days ago, so it could be stale. Thoughts? ~DCLet's Vent 21:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think its still ongoing, so Support. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as an unusual event that is getting global news coverage. Physchim62(talk) 00:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support...as far as I know a traffic jam of this magnitude is unprecedented. Ks0stm(T•C•G) 01:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support biggest jam i ever heard of.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about this for a blurb "A traffic jam outside Beijing extends for more than 60 miles (100km)" ~DCLet's Vent 03:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So at the end of it, a 5 billion year-old immortal is going to fix everything? ;) Support, for the record. Courcelles 03:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I didn't expect this story to even get nominated, let alone posted. It doesn't seem to be unprecedented, as previous traffic jams in China have lasted up to a month, although this jam is expected to last just that long[21]. Second, we now have two China-related stories on ITN, yet no mention of the ongoing 2010 China floods (~3,000 killed). ~AH1(TCU) 14:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am removing this for now, as a result of AstroHurricane's last comment. The story is interesting, but seems better suited for DYK than ITN; there is no broader international importance or interest. NW(Talk) 15:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um, that wasn't exactly a request for removal, just an outline of some objections over the story. It's still interesting nevertheless, and the fact is that international media have given this attention, but mostly because it's a strange and interesting story. ~AH1(TCU) 15:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I agreed with your last comment and made my own judgment call. The fact that there is a slow news day in several countries around the world doesn't make this any more significant. NW(Talk) 15:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Exactly I see no opposes but the story has been removed. NW this is clearly against a consensus to post. unless of course you think none of the others have any clue about what is worthy of ITN and what is not. as an aside the provided reference ( by AH1) does not say anything about any other traffic jams being of similar magnitude in China or elsewhere.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral on this one but I certainly don't oppose the removal. The there's bigger news going on than the 'world's longest traffic jam'.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I can't believe this has been removed! How stupid. For ONCE, Wikipedia had something INTERESTING on the in the news. Of course, NW couldn't live with that. An admin already decided to post this. What makes YOUR opinion more valuable than his? He made his own judgement call as well, you can't just take it down like that.Vancyon 05:50, 26 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vancyon (talk • contribs)
Comment You say that we can't go posting every big traffic jam, yet I have never seen a big traffic jam reported on any news site in my life. I may have just coincidentally missed them, but this story seems sort of unique.Vancyon 05:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vancyon (talk • contribs)
Exactly. Along those lines we can't go posting every big sports event, world catastrophe, or notable in Hollywood celebrity death. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢ 05:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Extremely funny news. It also is extremely unique and it is a real news story, so I think we can post this in clear conscience. __meco (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mexican contestant Jimena Navarrete wins Miss Universe 2010 pageant held in Las Vegas,Nevada. It is the biggest pageant in the world. I'm surprised it hasnt been nominated and posted already. Should be ITNR. Also would be great if we can find a free pic somewhere. Would be nice to have a pretty picture on main page for a change. -- Ashish-g55 18:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we usually post Miss Universe and Miss World. The winner's article needs expansion (and a nice free photo that we can put on MP), but then I'm fine with it. --Tone 19:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I had a quick look on Flickr and couldn't see anything free. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that we'll soon need a new image, because it's unlikely we'll get anything useful for Somali fights or Chinese plane crash. The Chile mine is possible but I don't know if it is a good idea to use the bus with hostages on MP... --Tone 19:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the article isnt bad actually. it has 6 refs... and the Miss universe 2010 article seems to be properly updated too. -- Ashish-g55 21:19, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
these things usually get on (dont know if its listed in the ritual ITN nominee rules, but it should be), so weak supportLihaas (talk) 00:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose Regardless of conventions or ITN/R, wikipedia can and should do better. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To explain my POV: we shouldn't blindly take cues from the media and effectively promote a commercial for-profit event based on the objectification of women. Not at all consistent with the objectives of an encyclopaedia. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any and all beauty pageants being put on ITN. No real significance in any of them. Courcelles 00:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
that is quite literally POV. its a truly international event watched by 100s of millions of people (i dont even need to prove that) all over the world. Every country works pretty hard to pick delegates and sends them to this particular event. I dont understand how not putting this on makes wikipedia any better. only makes it biased against beauty pageants for some reason. -- Ashish-g55 01:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me, that was a heavily moderated form of my POV on the subject. And it never claimed to be anything else. Now let's look at some facts. 83 countries showed up; well less than half. 100s of millions of viewers? In the host US, around 5 million watched; a a couple million less than sitcom reruns. Given the time of day, Europe and Africa would have been asleep, and Asia in the mid-morning. Do you have anything that backs up that number, because that's on the level of World Cup/UEFA Champions League Final/Olympic Ceremonies numbers. (And, yes, on a philosophical level I oppose giving these archaic things the high-value publicity of a listing on the front page of a top-10 website, but even objectively I don't see the case for significance you state.) Courcelles 03:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add that Miss Universe 2010 can't even decide what tense it should be written in, and has less than 100 words of real prose. The winner's article is less than 1,000 characters of prose. No matter what the event is, we have zero postable articles at the moment. Courcelles 03:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who doesn't think there's room for POV in consensus-building processes is very much mistaken. --Mkativerata (talk) 05:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is a major widely watched international event. without getting into the merits of women wanting to look pretty we should not let our personal POV diminish the notability of this event. would support putting it on ITNR--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The key issue is the picture. Can one be found in Commons, or uploadable to Commons? Jusdafax 03:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support iff we can get a picture a) because she's very pretty and b) because we're in dire need of a new image. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 05:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well it is a bit silly, but it probably isn't any worse than modern Eurovision with joke entries, but is it a cultural icon??? Well at least compared to Idol etc and other reality shows, the producers don't try and incite the public and stir things up. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 09:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support given required image, as per precedent. ~AH1(TCU) 14:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per precedent. As far as the above objections are concerned, I can't see how this is worse than posting the winner of a boxing match in which the winner has violently beaten his opponent into submission. And we post boxing match results from time to time.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just did a quick search and there are a few free pics on flickr. Licensing seems ok to me. can use any of those (the one in pink). -- Ashish-g55 15:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those are licensed CC-BY-NC; even assuming they're not what the Commons-folk call "Flickrwashed", the license is incompatible; we can't use anything with a noncommercial license. Courcelles 16:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wait what. we cant use a fair use image on main page but i was pretty sure CC-BY-NC is ok. -- Ashish-g55 16:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, CC-BY-NC is no different than fully copyrighted for our purposes; Commons won't host it, and you can't use it in an article without a Fair-use Rationale. Courcelles 16:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a stupid rule that I've been arguing against for years, but Courcelles is right. Quite why we can't have fair-use on the Main Page, provided there was a good rationale and relevant text, I never understood. Seems to come down to 'Jimbo doesn't like it'. The same applies to NC images anywhere on WP, which seems to get the priorities wrong (thinking WP should be a repository of free content rather than an encyclopaedia). Modest Geniustalk 17:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The non non-free images on the MP is a very good rule imo. They're there largely for decoration an don't really enhance the reader's understanding, so it's not what I'd call "fair use". However, the rule against non-commercial use licenses is an utterly stupid rule imo. Anyway, if they're not Flickrwashed, someone could contact the owner and ask them nicely if they'd alter the license. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oct 6, 09's TFP was under GFDL which clearly stated it was not under public domain and any commercial terms must be "negotiated". A GFDL with a share-alike restriction is same as saying its CC-BY-NC. I see no difference for wikipedia purposes. I brought this issue up then and was shut down by saying a "liberal enough copy left was allowed". These made up rules make no sense to me. -- Ashish-g55 18:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't agree more. CC-BY-SA and CC-BY-NC are pretty much the same thing, the former is just pretending to be more liberal. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can even understand difference between CC-BY-SA and NC. but how can a GFDL with SA restriction be allowed on main page and not this. A free license with SA means it is non-commercial. please correct me if im wrong here. -- Ashish-g55 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not quite true. It's possible to sell SA material, by for example printing it or burning it on a CD. Yes you have to share alike, but that just means someone else can copy the content and put it in their own book/CD/whatever; it doesn't stop you making money on the sale of the goods (though it does restrict the profit margin you can charge before someone bothers to undercut you). Those sorts of usage would NOT be allowed with an NC licence. But I agree, it's hardly a huge difference. Modest Geniustalk 18:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moot point anyway, they are in fact Flickrwashed, just not the traditional way. The link at the bottom goes to [22], which states; roughly translated, "Photographs taken in Guadalajara by photographer Guillermo Flores for a women's clothing catalogue for the You Too brand. The models are Gladys and Ximena Navarrete." So You Too owns the copyright, not the photographer. Courcelles 23:50, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. Personally I oppose these sorts of contest, and think they're a bloody stupid waste of brain cells. But it meets the ITN criteria, and has undoubted international appeal. I wish these things didn't exist, but it's encyclopaedic and 'I don't like it' isn't a good reason to oppose. Modest Geniustalk 17:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Why is it absolutely essential to get an image? If there's so much trouble getting a free image, can't we just post this as text and keep image for another news item? SPattalk 02:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree picture would be nice (preferably in a bikini). but it is not essential for posting and we should not delay just for that reason.--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Beauty pageants do not constitute world news. We can do better than this. Regarding the picture comments above, this is not a locker room. Please be respectful. Kaldari (talk) 21:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Checking again looks very US-centric and made for US TV ratings, rather than a genuine competition eg Eurovision (although that can be farcical for different reasons, it is an international global icon). The hosts are always from the US or US-based industry (eg Mexicans and Puerto Ricans) the music is always American, and all the judges were American as well, this year, and are always at least half the judges. The thing is run by two American businesses; I wonder if this is just an elaborate plug, eg in Australia the TV companies that do the F1 and horseracing coverage spend a lot of time mingling in the celeb culture areas; what they actually do is go down there and talk exclusively to channel sponsors and actors/presenters from their channel who have been hauled there as part of the "scene" but are actually there to plug the other cooking/drama shows etc on the channel. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. We added Six Nations and that's only followed in two countries and marginally followed in two others. Maybe we'd post the Miss World, because the Brits organize it. Heck also Miss International the Japanese guy has been hosting that thing for decades already. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 08:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm against this for the personal reason that I think beauty pageants are a lot of hot air. They are by any standards tabloid, so let's drop this one. __meco (talk) 18:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A plane crashed with 91 passengers in China - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the BBC it doesn't seem like anyway has died at this point. Either way the article is just one line at this point. ~DCLet's Vent 17:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is more than one line now, though still distinctly stubbish. Shouldn't be too hard to write some more, though, plenty of sources. I've added a bit, but am going AFK in short order. Also, right now, there seems to be just below 50 survivors, but I haven't seen anything on deaths. C628 (talk) 17:58, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are no deaths reported yet. If so - maximum 40 people may have died (+-hospitalized), so I don't know if it's enough for an ITN news. Kubek15write/sign 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
40+ dead in a plane crash is a lot. The article needs some work first, though. --Tone 19:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support if it were to be a good article. certainly warrants a palce with the casualty count.(Lihaas (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support I've expanded it a bunch, though I don't have time to do any more, I think it's in good enough condition to go up. C628 (talk) 00:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the article is in a fit state to go up. The BBC is saying 42 dead, which implies many survivors; this seems like a reasonably important air accident to be posted. Physchim62(talk) 00:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two technical issues. First, we should say "Northeast China", not "Northeast People's Republic of China". That's like saying "Southeast United States of America". It is awkward, and it is redundant. No one will dispute this due to political neutrality as I am certain no one across the strait will think that "Northeast China" points to somewhere in Taiwan. Second, as we did with every other air crash, we should mention the airline and the flight number, not just the location in which it occurred. Colipon+(Talk) 23:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2 days of attacks in the Somalia capital at TFG barracks and a hotel housing government officials kill almost 90 and wound almost 100. (the numbers are little wishy-washy, but this is not ordinary Somali fighting, especially after Al Shabaab declaration of war against the internationally recognised government and following the WC final attacks in Kampala last month. The war against AMISON also goes on...(Lihaas (talk) 09:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support came here to nominate it myself. It's the lead story on the websites of the BBC and MSNBC at the moment. ~DCLet's Vent 09:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article could use a copyedit and an expansion, but that shouldn't take too much to fix. (I'd do it myself but it's nearly 6am where I am). ~DCLet's Vent 09:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whenever you have the time, and some more source would be nice, since its breaking surely more willfollow.Lihaas (talk) 09:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Several MPs killed. I think the attack and the general Islamist offensive will have big implications for Somalia. Offliner (talk) 09:56, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - ITN item, undoubtedly. Jusdafax 12:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, major incident, especially because of the location, under tighter security than most of the city. BTW, I think there should be a comma after "hotel" in the blurb. C628 (talk) 12:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. However, some remarks. The article is a bit short in regard with what could still be written about the incident, there is an inconsistency between the number of casualties in the text and in the infobox and PMs could be mentioned in the blurb. --Tone 13:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sounds like a small plane, if its not enough in Alaska its not enough in Nepal where safety standards are lower. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:08, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now that we have a much worse plane crash above... --Tone 19:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
doesnt mean 2 cant go up if they were up to scrath..(Lihaas (talk) 10:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Well, this one has a big AfD notice at the top, so I don't think it would be a particularly good idea to post it at the moment... C628 (talk) 13:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not as large as the ones in Bolivia but still fairly large. The smoke is really spreading a lot. 272,000 hectares of land burnt as of Monday 23 August, 2010. That is 1050.197 square miles. Mr. R00tTalk 01:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not anywhere on the front page of nationalpost.com or globeandmail.com. I think we should wait until this becomes big news in Canada, at least. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And also what is its precedence? the biggest ever in Canada? State of emergency? Or just annual firefights that the usa (CA) and Aus. seem to have. in other words strong oppose(Lihaas (talk) 02:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
The fires were on the main pages a few days ago when the smoke first reached as far away as Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Oppose because these aren't the worst fires ever; the fires were much worse the last two years. --PlasmaTwa2 04:44, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article focuses only on the fires in Quebec that started in May, yet there are fires in British Columbia and Alberta that are much more recent, for example the Melldrum Creek Fire. A few people were killed in BC, yet the article does not mention either this nor the number of hectares burnt. The 2003 Okanagan Mountain Park Fire seem to be more significant, though I'd have to improve the article to determine the significance of this one. ~AH1(TCU) 14:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
pretty interesting but probably more suitable for DYK -- Ashish-g55 15:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, not suitable for ITN, I think, because there won't be any serious implications. It's more like local news. We wouldn't report if a tree named after a famous Chinese fell down in Ürümqi. Offliner (talk) 15:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well its not just a tree named after someone. Its part of a Anne Frank Diary, its pretty famous. but ya still not for ITN though -- Ashish-g55 15:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, a tree fell over. f o x 15:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, a very old tree fell over in the wind and died. non notable death of a notable tree ;-)--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opppose. Just imagine what the peanut horse-chestnut gallery would say if this were rooted onto ITN. ;) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support fairly unusual event getting a lot of attention. i dont think death count really matters in this case. How many times do you have a bus taken hostage for a day -- Ashish-g55 15:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not enough casualties to be on ITN. if it was a shootout in an American mall likely nobody would have even nominated.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least 8 deaths have been confirmed. Also see my comment below. --Deryck C. 15:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Made top headline in BBC and CNN despite that the event occurs on the opposite end of the planet in Manila and concerns Hong Kong tourists only. --Deryck C. 15:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning toward oppose, I guess. Now there are 8 casualties, but I remember that a shooting incident (again, a laid-off worker who went nuts) in Orlando had about the same number of deaths, but it didn't go to ITN. The article was even deleted later (it was called something like 2009 Orlando shooting). So perhaps we should decline this one unless the indicent is going to have some important implications? Perhaps more experienced users will know what to do. Offliner (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Passes the three-continent rule, and significant incident of international significance, especially to the Philippines and China. Also, what happened to not using astericks for support/oppose !votes? ~AH1(TCU) 16:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully the final casualties toll: 8 died and 10 were injured. The last item on ITN has seven people died and 14 injured. I'd assume it's easier to kill many with a bomb than w/ an M16 rifle. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 16:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
this is a hostage situation and not some nut job shooting people randomly. so cant really compare to those events. death count is still fairly high and IMO it makes it more notable that its not any higher. -- Ashish-g55 16:09, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But the Aksu bombing is different since it was connected to the general ethnic violence in Xinjiang. This shooting seems to be the work of a single individual and unconnected to any wider issue. Offliner (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno why should an event be connected to a wider issue in order to be added here. Is this another of ITN's hidden criteria? Otherwise that'll disqualify many potential blurbs. The HK government has issued a black travel ban to the country, essentially treating the entire country as a war zone. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 16:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, all of the current ITN items are connected to a wider issue. Except perhaps the 800m world record. Offliner (talk) 16:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So? If anything this was like some psycho holding a bus hostage at the National Mall in Washington, or at Tianamen Square. The guy did choose a good location to do something crazy. Suggested blurb:
I probably wouldn't support it even it happened on Red Square or Times Square, unless it was terrorism. Too few wider implications. Offliner (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it's a sad story, but we rejected a similar one in Connecticut a few weeks ago. ~DCLet's Vent 17:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently, it was I who posted that one, it looked we had quite a good consensus back then. I still think this story is ITN-worthy. So far, the arguments are down to:
against: Other incidents of the same magnitude did not make it to ITN,
for: Tourists attacked, many casualties, international response, happened in a relatively peaceful area.
Your choice. --Tone 18:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support it is pretty rare that tourists die in circumstances like this. Manilla isn't exactly a warzone either. Top on Guardian too. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Article is in good shape. SpencerT♦C 18:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support it hitted the headlines in many mainstream media.--Stevenliuyi (talk) 19:16, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It's not everyday when news from the Philippines is the top story on the AP wire in the U.S., an indication of worldwide interest. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Copiapó mining accident
In August 5, 33 miners got trapped in a Chilean mine. The rescue efforts have been persistent until today, when the first contact was achieved. Is this noteworthy for ITN? Will write an article on it soon. See also Wikinews article. Diego Grezwhat's up? 00:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there already an article on the mining accident when it happened (should be somewhere, was probs nominated too). At any rate, they said some 4 months to get them out. so oppose for now, itll be more than a minor miracle if they survive and ITN-worth at that.(Lihaas (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
More up-to-date source. It seems they've just been found alive. I would assume that if they've found them, they have some way of getting food and water to them, so they'll probably be alive when they're dug out, even if it will take 4 months. I support a blurb on them being found alive if a decent article emerges. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
good luck, tried helping out a bit with organising it. Play around with it, its coming along..Lihaas (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support since contact has been made after all this time and they are all currently alive. That sounds significant enough even if they all don't escape alive. --candle•wicke 01:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have a feeling this is a going to be a big story especially since it may take 120 days for the miners to get out. --Mattwj2002 (talk) 02:41, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support it is very newsworthy that these miners are alive till now. whether they are pulled out alive eventually is of secondary importance.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Dramatic story. Jusdafax 02:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional oppose Current article needs expansion and improvement. SpencerT♦C 03:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why that's a reason to oppose. The article's under development. It's not ready yet, but it's coming along quite nicely. Anyway, it needs a little more expansion, filling out and some aesthetic tweaks and it could be ready. I'll give it a copy edit, as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really an oppose. However, important information such as "what caused the collapse?" is still missing, or where is the collapse?. Nonetheless, consensus suggests post now, and I think that based on consensus here alone, the article could go up. SpencerT♦C 18:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when the article's done (which looks to be soon). f o x 15:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looks quite well at the moment. What should the blurb say? --Tone 16:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above reasons. And the article seems ready now. ~DCLet's Vent 17:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
33 miners are confirmed to be still alive following a collapse in a mine in Copiapó, Chile, after three weeks missing.
...Or something like that. f o x 19:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can't start a blurb with a numeral per MOS:NUM, but other than that, the blurb seems decent. I'm still not entirely happy with the article, though, much as I hate to be the spanner in the works. The background section is unsourced and needs some expansion to put the event in context and there's very little detail about things like cause of the collapse etc. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the article with sources/more content in the background section and the reason the miners are trapped. I can't find anything on why the roof of the mine collapsed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Should this be placed at the top since they're still in the mine, but the hostage situation is over? ~DCLet's Vent 00:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the chronology is correct: the story is "found alive" for the miners and "killed" for the hostages, and the events happened in that order. Physchim62(talk) 00:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iran unveils a long range unmanned bomber, the Karrar drone their latest addition in a number of recently disclosed military hardware. (The Guardian), (Los Angeles Times)
South African trade unions state that a court injunction successfully sought by the government is intended to "intimidate" workers who are striking in the hope of receiving better pay. (BBC)(News24)
After a federal investigation by the United States, 47 foreign-born gang members are arrested in New England, including members of the "True Somali Bloods", "True Sudanese Bloods" and the "Asian Boyz". Over half are arrested in the U.S. state of Maine. (Portland Press Herald)
4 mutilated and decapitated corpses are located by police hanging by their ankles from a bridge outside Cuernavaca, Morelos. (BBC)
As per WP:ITNSPORTS, I propose we post the result - the competition is not over, there are still three games to be played, but the New Zealand team has won and received the cup as they have scored too many points to be beaten regardless of the result.
Not quite sure about that as the blurb - it makes it sound like the ABs and the Springboks were both in "the final". I'll have a ponder... TFOWR 18:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:ITNR and because the French thing is never going to get posted. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ITNR so presumably it's a support. I just wonder whether we should wait until the end of the competition. --Tone 19:11, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. They'll still play the remaining games, but if the All Blacks have won mathematically, then it's time to post. Physchim62(talk) 22:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Since NZ clinched it on the 21st it needs to be posted soon, considering it's older than four of the items currently on ITN. ~DCLet's Vent 17:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well if it gets too late, I suppose we can resort to plan B and post it at the end of the tournament, but if it ain't updated, it ain't goin' on ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:39, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We might as well do it at the conclusion of the tournament then, i'll update it in the meantime. Matty (talk) 08:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
800m world record
David Rudisha has broken the 800m world record with a time of 1:41.09. Although this is only 0.02 seconds faster than the previous record, that record had stood for 13 years. WP:ITNR lists world records which are 'by an unusually large margin, after a very long time period, or in a highly publicized event'. The article currently only has a single sentence update, but that should be easy to fix. BBCModest Geniustalk 15:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll also go with support, as 1) it took a long time to break the record and 2) we haven't had athletics on ITN for a while. --Tone 17:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, neutral. Minor distance, barely broken, the women's record is nearly three decades old (the top runners don't contest this distance), at a fairly minor event. I'd be tempted to oppose, but athletics gets on so rarely I won't bother. Courcelles 17:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit indifferent as well, but won't oppose it. The article is updated somewhat - I haven't gone any further on the record for fear of recentism. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In track" seems an odd way of phrasing it to me, though that could just be an ENGVAR thing. Also, it would be good to mention that he's a runner for those not familiar with athletics. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:48, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go and post. A slight modification to avoid the word track. --Tone 18:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, or is better to start Kenyan runner/athlete? --Tone 18:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also wonder whether the blurb should mention the age of the old record - that's the reason it's significant and has been posted. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I like the last blurb the best. Mr. R00tTalk 19:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That makes it a little long, but I like it too. I only added the "in track" because we usually do that for sports items, though I guess here it's less needed. ~DCLet's Vent 19:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great, now it's much better. We could use the photo as well. --Tone 19:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree - the red hair is blinding my eyes. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec w/DC) I quite like it, but then, I like redheads! ;) It's probably worth leaving it up there for a little while, since it hasn't been up long and we don't know when we'll have a suitable image to replace Rudisha. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious support - The 800m is one of the most commonly ran distances, and a world record is a huge achievement. Of course it is only broke by fractions of a second, these are the fastest men in the history of the planet. Agree that picture is needed. 98.247.218.30 (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say put that one up until we can find a better one. The current picture is worse imo. Mr. R00tTalk 19:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The permission for that image says "please credit Photo: Chell Hill in the immediate vicinity of the image." I read that as saying it should be something like a caption to the image on the page on which it is displayed. Which is problematic for the main page. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's CC-BY-SA, so like almost all images attribution on the file description page is fine. Note there's no caption on the article either. Modest Geniustalk 19:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But this appears to be an condition imposed by the image's creator: CC-BY-SA doesn't prevent an additional condition being imposed. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should leave Julia on for a couple of hours yet, because there are no nominations that would go higher up the template than the Aussie elections or Rudisha, which means he could be up there for a while if I change it now. I'll crop it and stick an {{m-cropped}} on it in a minute, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. Someone should probably swap the pic in around 2200 UTC or so (that would give Gillard 24 hours up there). ~DCLet's Vent 19:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable. If I forget and nobody beats me to it, I'll be fiddling with the Main Page at 0000 UTC anyway, so I'll do it then. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An injunction prevents public sector workers from continuing their national strike for better pay in South Africa; the army had previously been deployed and the country's health minister accused strikers of murder. (BBC)
Relatives accuse authorities of not doing enough to save 33 miners who have spent the past 15 days trapped in a collapsed mine near Copiapó in the Atacama Desert. (BBC)
The United States is hit by a salmonella scare, with hundreds of people now thought to be ill across the country due to bad eggs; poisoning is expected to increase in the coming weeks. (The Age)
I recommend we post once the loser concedes defeat. There is a slim prospect of (a) a hung parliament; or (b) a result not being known tonight, in which case we'll just have to play it by ear. We have free pictures of Gillard and Abbott. ITN junkies will recall Gillard made an ITN appearance less than 2 months ago. --Mkativerata (talk) 07:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - it should be done, no question. Jusdafax 08:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - WP standard Crnorizec (talk) 09:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No need to support, this is on WP:ITNR. I suggest we say 'Party X, led by Person Y, wins the Australian federal election' rather than the phrasing above, simply because this is consistent with the other election results we post, and avoids terms like 'returned' and 'set to' which are rather informal (particularly since 'returned' has a rather specific electoral meaning, which isn't as used here). Modest Geniustalk 14:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A winner has yet to be announced and the most likely result is a hung parliament. If this is the case, I suggest either:
Strong Support Large country and a close finish. That works well here. Doc Quintana (talk) 17:24, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok the result is chaos, we don't even know who has won the most seats. The media are reporting that a hung parliament is very likely.[26][27] I suggest a blurb:
It's the best we can do at the moment. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let us just wait until we know who got the most votes. Before that, we even can't have a proper update to the article. --Tone 18:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Most votes" is irrelevant to the outcome - it's the last thing we should base a posting on (and in any event, we won't know for days if not weeks). The very fact of the chaos is, in my view, postable. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. But then I'd suggest something like "X wins most votes but is unable to form a government" or "X and Y both win Z percents". We've had those cases before. In any case, we need an update to the article first. Later, when the government is formed, we can also post who becomes the PM. --Tone 19:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "House of Representatives/Results" section of the article holds the update. I'm loathe to put %ges or seats in the article or the blurb as neither will be finalised for weeks. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added specificish total seats, there were a few sources reporting them, the BBC, apparently from ABC, and The Australian. Thought it seemed reasonable, but revert if you want. C628 (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No question that this belongs on ITN Support. Mr. R00tTalk 19:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any remaining objections to putting this up now? One of the world's oldest democracies is about to wake up to having no government and we don't have it on the main page? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I simply don't find the update sufficient. Sorry. At least we need some percentages to indicate how the votes went. We should not hurry, we've waited in other cases as well. --Tone 20:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. Australian federal election, 2010#Results is sufficiently updated imo. Exact percentages aren't the story here and it was a similar weird fascination with formalities that meant the UK election didn't go up when it should have. I would also point to the phrase on WP:ITN which says
a highly significant event [...] may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article
It's fine, now the article says more clearly who and how and why the hung parliament. No further objections from my side. (of course, we should update the blurb when we know more) --Tone 21:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just previewed this on T:ITN and it doesn't come up very well - she's looking over the camera so you see too much of her neck. But the current one is pretty ordinary as well. Any views? --Mkativerata (talk) 06:04, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could try cropping the bottom ~50px off that. Modest Geniustalk 13:28, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. That's a lot. --candle•wicke 04:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - That is a lot. And the bar is red. Jusdafax 04:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Possible blurb: Bolivia declares a state of emergency as forest fires rage across move than 1,500,000 hectares (3,700,000 acres). What's protocol for {{convert}} in ITN? I'm not sure I like the "1,500,000 hectares" - I'd prefer "1.5m ha" but (a) I'm probably wrong, and (b) my template-fu is weak. TFOWR 07:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good blurb. The acres to ha coding I believe, and if this is what you are asking for, would be 3,700,000 acres (1,500,000 ha). Jusdafax 08:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Not quite: I'm happy with using whatever unit the source uses (hectares, I think - it was the BBC) - my concern is over the number of digits: I'd prefer "1.5m hectares (3.7m acres)" to "1,500,000 hectares (3,700,000 acres)" as the latter form implies a degree of precision that doesn't exist, and makes the blurb longer. If it's not possible (I took a look at {{convert}} and like most templates it's deeply mysterious to me...) or it's undesirable then so be it. It's certainly not a deal-breaker for me. TFOWR 08:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm good with whatever you think best, and I agree with your reasoning for wanting to shorten the blurb, etc. I also confess to being mystified by much of the template coding; what I typed in I only just learned when an editor worked on an article I had submitted to DYK. I'd like to see something go up asap due to concerns about the unrelenting redness in the bar at the top. This looks like the best candidate to post in the next hour or two, hopefully.Jusdafax 09:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. No clear opinion which of the units should go first but probably the ha. Feel free to change. --Tone 09:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Could someone do the honours and award Mr. R00t? I'm going offline now, for - probably - the rest of today. TFOWR 10:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Belated support, just in case any more was needed (only two above). Modest Geniustalk 14:16, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Fires are also tearing across Portugal, the Sahel, central Brazil, and British Columbia. Do we have articles on any of those? I generally support this posting, but the other fires should have articles as well, and since Central Brazil is the Amazon we would merge that information with the current article if the Brazil one is created. ~AH1(TCU) 01:17, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - this has been noted as the possible flashpoint for a regional war in the Middle East. Jusdafax 04:39, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Big event for several reasons. We should post this on ITN. __meco (talk) 06:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when the article is adequately updated accordingly. --BorgQueen (talk) 08:36, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when the article is updated. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, this is notable for several reasons and the launch is covered widely in international press. Article has been updated. Offliner (talk) 11:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. There's a small typo: Busher => Bushehr. Offliner (talk) 11:28, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed now. TFOWR 11:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think ITN credits were handed out for this item? —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 00:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think they are mandatory. :) ~AH1(TCU) 01:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you ever notice an update for which credit and article talk page templates weren't handed out, please go ahead and do so. That includes to yourself if necessary, there's no stigma in doing so. Modest Geniustalk 01:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I used to do the credits quite often even before I was an admin and templated myself more than once! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Canada Post advises customers that it cannot accept mail to Gaza until further notice. Israel Post continues to inform postal services around the world that mail service to Gaza is unavailable. (Reuters)
South African health minister Aaron Motsoaledi accuses of murder public sector workers who disrupt important treatment of patients while striking for better pay. (BBC)(News24)
Remains of a 104-year-old woman's body are discovered in her son's backpack during a nationwide search in Japan for missing centenarians. It is thought they may have been there for a decade. (AFP)(BBC)
An Irish-born Australian man who admitted after initially pleading innocence to breaching the state of emergency during the anti-government protests in Thailand is deported to Australia; he says he was beaten, was treated harshly and was not shown an arrest warrant. (The Sydney Morning Herald)
A quadriplegic man leaves hospital in Hong Kong for his own home after 19 years, having written to the country's leader 6 years ago to ask that he be allowed to die. (BBC)
The last remaining free inmate to have escaped from a prison in the U.S. state of Arizona is captured alongside his accomplice. (The New York Times)
A man sues game-maker NCsoft, stating he would not have begun to play one of their games, Lineage II, if he had known it was addictive and claims it has left him unable to function. (GameSpy)
Seems that talks over one of the most important political issues in the world today are set to resume. I would definitely say this is noteworthy, but I'm wondering whether we should wait until September when they actually meet or post now as they have both accepted Clinton's invitation to sit around a table. Thoughts? --Daviessimo (talk) 16:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support now We've had a slow week, why not post now. ~DCLet's Vent 17:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the talks start on 2 Sept. Modest Geniustalk 00:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now... "set to resume" doesn't mean that they will resume and nothing has happened. --candle•wicke 02:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is interesting. And where on Wikipedia can I read about the new peace process?... Dragons flight (talk) 02:08, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose About as logical as posting Israelis and Palestinians agree to make peace. As with anything related to this conflict, I'll believe it when I see it happen. -- tariqabjotu 02:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until they start until you post. Also, which article? Mr. R00tTalk 02:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Those talks are wishful thinking, no substance, and they are set to fail, even if they ever take off. Crnorizec (talk) 08:47, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support one of the most tragic frauds in recent years. people with prostate cancer typically live for years.--Wikireader41 (talk) 14:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll say oppose, as not much happened today regarding this story, apart from the fact that it marks one year since he was released. --Tone 14:53, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The anniversary of a noteworthy event does not inherit its notability. Nothing much has happened, except some hand-wringing. Modest Geniustalk 15:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, there's nothing newsworthy or notable about an event that happened a year ago and if this is just an anniversary, OTD would more appropriate. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Agree with HJ Mitchell, Modest Genius and Tone. Suitable for OTD. Nothing has happened. --candle•wicke 02:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Anniversaries are not very important. Maybe On This Date. Mr. R00tTalk 02:14, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll say it again, why do people at ITN assume others are simply thick? I did not simply nominate this because it is an anniversary, I nominated it because, if anyone actually bothered to look, this particular anniversary has generated more coverage and more events, for what I thought I had described as the obvious reasons. I'm fine with rejection ont he basis those developments weren't significant enough, but I do not accept the implication that I have mistaken ITN for OTD. I didn't, and wouldn't. MickMacNee (talk) 17:07, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No-one suggested that anyone else was thick. Nothing much happened. The only 'event' that the media reported was it being a year later, and all parties restating their positions. Modest Geniustalk 01:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec w/MG) I don't think anybody is suggesting that you got ITN and OTD muddled up, merely that OTD may have been (I assume it's too late now) a better place for this item. Likewise, I don't think anybody was assuming that you're thick. It has to be said, your nomination was far better than many on this page. I think (I can't speak for others) the reason for the large opposition is simply because this man has lived 9 months longer than he was expected to, but there isn't any event that makes his longevity notable. Ironically, if he'd died, there'd probably be more support. It may be the biggest story in the papers, but it is a slow news week, even for silly season. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Roma deportations from France
France begins the deportation of some 700 Roma Gypsies to Romania and Bulgaria. Developing story that seems to be causing ruckus because all three countries are members of the European Union, and there are E.U. laws enforcing freedom of movement for E.U. citizens and forbidding expulsion based on ethnicity. Perhaps someone with more background in E.U. policies can better assess this. (The New York Times)(Time) —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 06:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (for now) seems relatively routine (how many Mexicans get deported each year?). However, if an editor better explains the repercussions of the story, I'll reconsider. ~DCLet's Vent 06:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The U.S. and Mexico aren't in a treaty that guarantees free movement for both nations's citizens. The French Republic is in such an agreement with Romania and Bulgaria. As E.U. citizens, I'm thinking these people have a treaty right to reside in any E.U. state... Courcelles 06:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the NY Times article, over 10,000 were deported last year. That's why I feel it's routine. ~DCLet's Vent 06:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
French law says that if citizens of a recent EU member state are to stay for more than three months, they must either have a work permit or prove their ability to maintain themselves with their own assets. The controversy is the policy of pressurised mass "voluntary repatriation" with a resettlement allowance, rather than application of the law through the courts. There are issues about police methods, political agendas, and treatment of travellers who are French citizens. A chronic condition that has suddenly gained some wider publicity rather than an acutely current situation, but there seems to be no wikipedia article dealing with the theme. But if it is to be posted, can we avoid Roma Gypsy, which is tautologous and 50% perjorative: black niggers would be comparable, and I'm sure most editors and readers would not be comfortable with that. Kevin McE (talk) 10:34, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: It is an act of racism, and with no precedent, because the French are only acting against the Roma. There was a nice article somewhere, that Sarkozy should also get 300 Euro and bus ride to Hungary, being a second-generation of Hungarian-Jewish stateless immigrant. Crnorizec (talk) 08:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support because of the attention is still receiving even now after several days. Described as "one of the most controversial initiatives in French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s populist “security” agenda", with Vatican condemnation. And "one member of his own UMP party has compared President Sarkozy's crackdown on illegal Roma camps to “rafles”, the roundups of Jews in Nazi-occupied France". And praise from Italy. Aljazeera, CNN, Xinhua, lots of coverage. --candle•wicke 02:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, this is starting to get a bit of support, so what would the article be for an update? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its not easy as it'd be good to explain that Romania is a new EU member so its allowed but not 100% OK as they may not get treated well there and you're supposed to have freedom of movement in the EU. - I guess that is far too long though :p. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Getting there, but adding that on the end just seems like a swipe at France. Is it part of an ongoing process? In which case, we could construct a blurb around "begins the deportation of..." or something similar. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the word deports is problematic: deportation is the result of a legal process, and one of the key issues in this episode is that this is by-passing the courts by a mixture of (resettlement allowance) carrot and (destruction of camps) stick. Does repatriates avoid this? Kevin McE (talk) 22:46, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be inclined to avoid that word as well as it has two connotations for me: first, that of flag-draped coffins being carried off C17s and the second of "sending them back where they came from", neither of which is particularly helpful. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As to HJ's second connotation, is that not precisely what is happening? They are Romanian citizens, being sent back there, because French authorities have deemed that they do not belong in France. Kevin McE (talk) 07:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What about "France expels..."? 95.26.29.199 (talk) 06:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Expels makes them sound like a disease. f o x 09:32, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose' of anything that sounds like "Romani people to Romania". The term Romani does not have absolutely any relationship with the term Romanian, and this sort of blurb almost guarantees that people will make this false connection/stereotype again. Nergaal (talk) 10:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you can say to Bulgaria and Romania to make it less confusing for the uneducated readers... But otherwise not much can be done here. --Tone 12:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While there seems to be a rough consensus that this is a postable story, we apparently can't agree on the blurb. But anyway, the date of this item is August 19, when it started. The last item in the ITN box is from that date and when Copiapó mining accident gets posted - presumably today - this item will be too old. So, either find a good blurb very soon of forget about it... --Tone 12:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The United Nations issues a report stating that Israel restricts with live ammunition access to land used for farming and fishing by Palestinians, causing a loss of livelihood for tens of thousands of Palestinians. (BBC)(United Nations Report)
Former chief of the Sri Lankan armed forces Sarath Fonseka admits he expects to be jailed after being charged with corruption and believes the verdict has been decided in advance; Fonseka has been elected to the Sri Lankan parliament since the charges were pressed. (BBC)
Mexico City legalises the fining of shops which give away free plastic bags in an environmental initiative. (BBC)
Not breaking today, but per the attack 2 days ago, the blurb bneeds to be altered to reflect the fact that 2 bombings happened. one at the recruiting centre and one in a Shia neighbourhood (deaths can stills ay 60+ and wounded is 144)(Lihaas (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
I've posted this at WP:ERRORS. Please post updates there in the future. ~AH1(TCU) 01:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was originally brought up at WP:ERRORS but kicked back here. The two bombings were largely unrelated as I understand it. I'm not entirely sure why the article has been changed to include the second, but that's a different matter. Unless someone can provide evidence that the two were directly related, the blurb stays as it is because the consensus at the time it was originally posted was to post the first because of the frequency of such events and the unusually high death toll from that bombing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Expansion of the Universe
Now here's something encyclopaedic: a study has found that the Universe is likely to continue to expand forever.[28][29] Normally I'd update before nominating but I don't really have much of a clue where we should put this, and how: Universe?--Mkativerata (talk) 04:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Likely", "will probably", etc. Perhaps if they announce that they know it will. --candle•wicke 04:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose there are countless studies coming out all the time (many contradicted a few months/years later), no need to give this rubbish credence like Press TV seems to do. That said per HJ Mitchell if the community feels its noteworthy then i would support their view too. Maybe put a banner on "attention from experts in the subject" on that page.(Lihaas (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Some more info including the link to NASA's press release: The Daily Telegraph. It seems the study has been published in Science. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 05:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Probably oppose, the Science paper devises a new method to measure dark energy while the conclusion about the expansion is something created by the media and is not written in the paper. --Tone 08:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. That the universe will expand forever has been the prevailing wisdom since shortly after the discovery of dark energy more than a decade ago. The refinements offered by this study are neither radical nor particularly newsworthy. Dragons flight (talk) 08:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I learned about conservation of momentum when I was about 12: the relevant study was In the News in July 1687Kevin McE (talk) 10:43, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose (as an astronomer myself). There's been a new measurement of dark energy. This is good, and interesting, but it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. The media has picked this up because it's silly season. Whilst I'm glad to see more science stories in the news, it's not significant enough for ITN. To repeat - this is a new measurement of something we already knew about. Modest Geniustalk 15:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Doesn't seem to be anything new. Doc Quintana (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC - "widely recognised as one of the foremost Scottish poets of the 20th Century", wrote for six decades, was writing at death, wrote in many styles, wrote "Poem for the Opening of the Scottish Parliament" in 1999, several awards, etc. Further coverage.
The Guardian - "poetry's true son", "not only our national poet – widely read, studied at school, much loved by fellow authors as well as readers – but our international poet", translated from other languages, "a star of the international concrete poetry movement of the 1960s". Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney "[paid] formal homage" to him in 2005. Awards, honorary degrees, an OBE, etc.
Support. He is also Scotland's first national poet. If we post the photograph of him, the copyright tag on it might need replacing as it doesn't match what the file summary says. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 03:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose His death has had no effect on anything, despite his life having been notable (I use my own death criteria for ITN. We post too many deaths).--Mkativerata (talk) 03:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I also use my own death criteria (I think many contributors here do), and I think we don't post enough deaths. That doesn't make me think that the posting of this gentleman's demise on ITN would especially benefit the coverage of poetry on on Wikipedia or its understanding among our readers. Physchim62(talk) 03:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. non notable death of somewhat notable person--Wikireader41 (talk) 04:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. He was obviously a person of some significance, but not global significance and his death doesn't seem to be out of the blue, not that that makes it any easier for his family. If someone has received UK state honours, how high up the orders of chivalry they got is a reasonable yardstick for measuring their significance in their field and an OBE is not that significant. Someone who has made such a huge contribution to their field that their death would be on ITN would normally be knighted. For example, the last three people with UK honours I can think of who were on ITN: SirJames Black OM, SirCharles Mackerras (A KB, which doesn't normally have postnoms), SirNick Parker KCB. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even Ted Kennedy was KBE. (I had to meet my quota on Kennedy references). ~DCLet's Vent 05:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per above/globalise(Lihaas (talk) 05:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support - notable, honored, and significant. Jusdafax 05:57, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - currently ninth item on the BBC Scotland news page. Many proposals of death announcements here recently have drawn heavily on obituary columns: by their very nature, these will speak up the importance of their subject matter, as not to do so is essentially equivalent to the contributor sticking a post-it to the copy when handed to the editor saying "probably not worth printing". The comments made about the recently deceased by other luminaries in their field are routine rather than remarkable: even politicians at permanant loggerheads get suddenly polite about their deceased adversaries. Kevin McE (talk) 11:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure yet what article this would fall under. Of global interest, not just Wikipedians. Note: an IP tried to remove the news item, which I have restored. Jusdafax 19:39, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We should avoid self-referential ITN postings unless we absolutely have to (eg wikipedia gets blocked by the US government would be ITN-worthy). And I don't think this is significant enough. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Though we might want to add something about not adding pro-Zionist comments to Wikipedia in WP:COI. Mr. R00tTalk 19:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, internal self-referential news. Exactly what the Signpost is for. Modest Geniustalk 21:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - fair enough, and good advice. Was just looking at how that works. Interesting. Jusdafax 21:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - and will someone be policing these animals from tag-team reverts as always happens the minute a breaking story comes out?(Lihaas (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Question to Lihaas- What exactly do you mean by that? Mr. R00tTalk 23:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - We badly need to move forward with something. Jusdafax 15:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support upon de-stubbing of article. ~AH1(TCU) 17:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article could use some work, but it's probably big enough to be considered start class and we've posted similar sized new articles before. That and the fact that we're now 42 hours without an update means that I'm going to post this. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - seems fairly minor to me, the article isn't great, and I doubt this would go up if the timer wasn't so overdue (damn you silly season). Modest Geniustalk 21:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support - I agree with MG that it is minor, but why the heck not? :) Diego Grezwhat's up? 01:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we please change this to "Northwestern China" and cut the "People's Republic of China"? It is like saying, floods occured in Southeast United States of America. It is awkward, and not used anywhere except Wikipedia. You can link "China" to "People's Republic of China". I give you a guarantee that no one from other side of the strait will come and complain about the neutrality of this mere geographical description. Colipon+(Talk) 05:20, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two thoughts. First: Can someone explain the reason we need to use the full name of China. Is there really anyone who would think China means Taiwan? And second, we shouldn't be more lenient in our standards just because the timer is red. ~DCLet's Vent 05:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The fictional detective Sherlock Holmes, created by Doyle, has never gone out of style for over a century and is known worldwide as a cultural icon. Doyle commissioned the house's construction and lived in Undershaw for a decade, writing The Hound of the Baskervilles and other Holmes stories there. Plans are underway to convert Undershaw into flats (aka apartments). Article regarding Undershaw was written by yours truly in the past few hours. Jusdafax 09:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It has encyclopedic merit, but just because Conan Doyle himself has withstood the stand of time, the house is of no global significance as may be seen as trivial. Perhaps more suited for DYK. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 09:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At first glance, it feels more like a DYK than an ITN, but... I love the occasional quirky ITN story. Oh, why not, Support. Courcelles 09:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Arsonal, but should absolutely be nominated for DYK. --Smashvilletalk 13:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'Weak oppose. I like it, but it's a bit trivial for ITN and I dread to think what the peanut gallery would say if it went up! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per HJ Mitchell. Mr. R00tTalk 21:17, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, just not significant enough. Certainly DYK material though. Modest Geniustalk 21:59, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was just about to support (interesting, different, makes a change from the usual bombs and disasters, international relevance in an underrepresented topic) when I realised it is a plan, much like that mosque nomination recently. How would it be phrased in the ITN section if it hasn't even happened? I would consider supporting if nominated when it has been saved or knocked to the ground. But DYK would be good. :-) --candle•wicke 00:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done as a DYK nomination, and I thank those supporting it as such for the kindly suggestions. Jusdafax 20:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By "today", the IP means 19 August. This item will probably get renominated when the section for that day is ready in 2.5 hours. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 21:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note this is a WP:ITNR event, so if when a Fields medal is awarded (they don't have to give one out) it should be posted once the relevant article is updated. Let's hope we have decent articles for the laureates/topics... Edit: looks like they've never failed to award one, so I guess it's going to happen. Modest Geniustalk 21:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We add it if/when the article has been updated, but after that happens (barring an influx of opposers), it will go up as soon as possible (ie as soon as an admin is around). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In 2006, two of the four winners didn't even have articles at the time they won. Hopefully, we'll do better this time around, but we do have to at least wait long enough that some updated content exists. Dragons flight (talk) 00:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to say where it was announced, and would be better off with something like
and basing the final clause on the official citation (like we do with Nobel prizes). Modest Geniustalk 01:37, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike Nobel prizes, Fields Medals don't generally have a unified theme. Rather each of the two to four winners may be cited for entirely different accomplishments. Dragons flight (talk) 02:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well we'll need to see what they are, but if possible we could include each of them. Length and the existence/state of the articles in question could be an issue though. Modest Geniustalk 02:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And which of these articles are substantially updated? -- tariqabjotu 08:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, forgot about that. For the moment just an update in the list of awardees should be sufficient right? (all the awardees pages have laready been updated)SPattalk 08:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so; we just have five poorly updated articles. -- tariqabjotu 09:15, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the highlight article will be Fields medal, then it is already as updated as it would get. Bolding all the laureates would result in too much bold text in the ITN box, I believe. Anyway, I wonder what substantial update can be made for each of the articles, apart from "X has received the Fields medal for his contribution on the field Y". Ok, Obama's Nobel peace prize has an article on its own but that's another story. I think this is ready to post, more or less. Willing to do so if you agree. --Tone 13:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no, I don't agree. This has been said before, but there are no stories that absolutely must be on the Main Page. If there's nothing else that can be updated in this article, well, that's a darn shame -- it shouldn't be added to ITN. The section is there to highlight updated articles on Wikipedia; if it doesn't fulfill that requirement, it doesn't belong. That being said, the Fields Medal article could, for example, include some of what was added to the individuals' articles -- namely, what each person was given the medal for. -- tariqabjotu 14:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, just one of the winner's articles could be substantially updated... there's a lot of choice here. -- tariqabjotu 14:29, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. I agree with Tariq, none of the articles is currently sufficient for ITN and the medal article is almost devoid of prose. I don't particularly care where the update goes, but it can't go up without one. All we really need is one or two good-sized paragraphs detailing who, what, how, where and why. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:53, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really trying to find some material to update one of the articles, but there's no reaction I can find. Beyond the citations, a few blogs explaining the maths, and the same half dozen sentences from the news wires, I can't find anything that could be used to bulk out an update (quotes, analysis, discussion etc). Modest Geniustalk 22:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'm having a go with Stanislav Smirnov, since he's at least reacted to the award. Is anyone able to read French? I could do with some help incorporating info from this press release. Modest Geniustalk 22:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have substantially rewritten Stanislav Smirnov, including adding a paragraph (with 5 references) on his Fields Medal win. It's not great, but contains pretty much all the info I could find on the topic. Modest Geniustalk 23:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The bold is reserved for articles that have been (substantially) updated with prose. Fields Medal has not be updated with prose. -- tariqabjotu 01:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which is a shame, because, as it is, it seems to be giving undue prominence to one of the winners over the other two, but the medal article is in a real state. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I second HJ Mitchell. Bold should be reserved for what is actually "news". And that's not Smirnov, but the Field Medals awarding. —bender235 (talk) 10:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The ordering of the name is incorrect if based on family name. Ngo is the Vietnamese family name, so his name should come after Lindenstrauss. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 01:26, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Julian Assange of Wikileaks says the United States has approached the website to try to negotiate the release of a further 15,000 Afghanistan war documents which the military desires to keep secret; the United States denies this. (Aljazeera)
A North Koreanfighter plane crashes in China near the border, killing the pilot and possibly a second pilot bailing out. Pictures posted by local residents show a Soviet plane design which were used in the Korean War. It is suggested to have been a defection attempt. (BBC)(Yonhap)
Scientists blame a peculiar double earthquake for the deadly tsunami responsible for the deaths of 192 people in the South Pacific last September, and described as "unlike anything seismologists have seen before". (BBC)
A court in Israel court jails a man who broke into the Turkish embassy in Tel Aviv and asked for asylum; his lawyer says the man was once an Israeli informer whose life is now under threat. (BBC)(News24)(Citizen.co.za)
A court in Colombia declares as unconstitutional a controversial deal allowing the United States to freely use its military bases and says it will have to be redrafted; other Latin American countries have expressed concern that the United States is exerting excessive influence on the region. (BBC)(The Age)(The Sydney Morning Herald)
Venezuela's government begins a trial ban of the publication of "violent, bloody or grotesque" photographs in newspapers, as a result of controversy over pictures of bloodied corpses riddled with bullets appear on the front page of newspapers. (BBC)
The Philippines is shocked by mobile phone footage apparently demonstrating police torture of a naked man charged with theft; many suspensions occur. (BBC)
Potential candidate Wyclef Jean goes into hiding after receiving mysterious death threats from an anonymous source. (The Guardian)(Sky News)
ITN candidates for August 18
U.S. Combat troops leave Iraq two weeks early
Per live reports just now on MSNBC. No article online yet as the story is breaking literally just now. Seems the troops were removed early as a security precaution. Stand by for updates. Jusdafax 22:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update 1 - I actually, just 30 minutes ago, watched MSNBC show the last troops leaving. I have no doubt a WP:RS will be reporting on line any second, if it has not happened already. The article should be Post-invasion Iraq, 2003–present and I have already updated the lede there. Some additional material in the body of the article will be helpful. Jusdafax 01:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Basically the end of the war. Doc Quintana (talk) 01:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. We need an update on a WP article somewhere. Currently top story on BBC News. Physchim62(talk) 01:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tentative support, but wait a bit first. Difficult to get firm facts until the news outlets wake up tomorrow morning, and we need to know for sure that the all combat troops have gone before posting. Iraq War has an update, but needs more references. There's also a Withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq article, but that seems to be out of date. Modest Geniustalk 01:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just out of curiosity, is the story that they've withdrawn, that it was earlier than expected, or both? Also, is this just American troops or is it a coalition thing? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:55, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The U.S. troops are the only major foreign force left in Iraq. But it seems strange to talk of a "withdrawal" when 50,000 U.S. military personnel will remain until the end of 2011... Physchim62(talk) 01:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is both, but with the accent on that they have withdrawn. I'll come up with a proposed blurb in the next 60 minutes as I monitor television and online sources. As for a mention of a "coalition" I have seen none mentioned, I believe this is U.S. tropps only. Psych, the story we are being told, is that the remaining U.S. troops are for training and advisory purposes. Jusdafax 02:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Someone at the BBC has woken up, but they're now saying 'the Pentagon has not confirmed that the move marks an early end to combat operations' and 'Some of the brigade remained behind to complete logistical and administrative tasks but would leave the country by air later in the day' [30]. Plus 50,000 seems like an awful lot of 'advisers' to leave behind. But I still think that once all the 'combat' troops are out it's a significant step, and probably the closest to a definitive end we're ever going to get. Modest Geniustalk 02:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support this is on CNN now. came her to nominate.--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay the, it appears this is official and getting some support. How about a blurb and an update? Preferably before I fall asleep on my keyboard. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:32, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update 2: I have added a new section to the article: 'Final departure of U.S. combat troops', with the salient facts to date. No doubt it can, and will be added to. Blurb upcoming, don't nod off just yet... Jusdafax 02:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In an event President Obama declared a "milestone", the final U.S. combat troops withdrew ahead of schedule from Iraq, leaving 50,000 U.S. soldiers who will continue to train and advise the Iraqi Armed Forces. (if this is too long, detach the first part w/Obama's quote and go from after the comma.)
I could probably get a more concise version of that up, but I've a feeling that, if I did it now, we'd get a pile on of after the fact opposers. I'll make it my first priority to review this when I log in in the morning if it hasn't already been posted, but it's 4am and I'm sleep deprived! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will be be afk about 30 minutes, then back on for several hours and available to work here as needed. I see this as time-sensitive, but that's just me. Thanks HJ. Jusdafax 03:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC) Additional note: I see it has been 27 hours since the last update, and that bar is mighty red. ;). Jusdafax 03:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. from the announcement a few weeks ago, the 'withdrawal' was reducing troop numbers from 70,000 to 50,000. That's not a significant event. And the idea that in the last few years the troops have been on 'combat duties' any differently than the ones remaining, is pretty misleading. They've been bunkered in bases hoping not to get attacked. Still, no doubt this will sail thru anyway. Gobama. MickMacNee (talk) 02:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Out of interest, Mick, would you oppose this if it were any country other than the United States? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if it were done this way. This simply isn't a withdrawal in any meaningful sense of the word, and as said, to describe this as 'the end of the war', or even the 'end of combat operations' is innaccurate at best, spin at worst. The UK left half the armed forces in Germnay when they 'withdrew' after the end of the Cold War - that's another example of a phoney withdrawal. Maybe I could support if you gave an accurate blurb - 20% of US troops leave Iraq, having been engaged in no offensive combat operations for years. MickMacNee (talk) 03:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The "combat mission ... is scheduled to end on 31 August". "The Pentagon has not confirmed that the move by the 40,000 personnel from Stryker Brigade marks an early end to combat operations". Therefore not quite the end, just another step. Also, 56,000 troops staying? And spokesman says its "far from over". Everything here beyond the headline and the first sentence seems to contradict the crucial claim. In fact some those who left are "to leave the country by air later in the day". So... 40,000 are leaving... but not quite because they are leaving 56,000 troops behind... so more are in Iraq after now than are leaving now... and all of those 40,000 haven't even left yet because some are staying until later? I think that's it but it sounds so tangled the only conclusion I can come to is that this isn't the end. --candle•wicke 03:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Candlewicke sums up perfectly my thoughts on this item. Seems more like a propaganda end than a real ending. Courcelles 04:13, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support According to the BBC [31] "Some 50,000 US troops will remain until the end of 2011 to advise Iraqi forces and protect US interests". Now for me, this signifies a clear end to combat operations in the country and to my mind that is a big deal given this was a war and not a peacekeeping mission. The blurb should focus on the fact that all combat troops (from all involved nations) have now left the country. Something along the lines of:
Support it was on the BBC radio this morning, and seems worthy of posting. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I share many of the concern of the opposers, but the timer is currently red. I'd consider posting this if the blurb made clear that this was limited to US combat troops. Per HJ Mitchell, I'd consider Jusdafax's blurb, above, without the Obama "milestone" part. I'll hold off for an hour or so, in case there are strong objections, or a smarter admin than what I iz pops up... TFOWR 07:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The notability comes from the fact that this is an end to all combat operations by coalition forces and not just those of the US. Otherwise we should have been posting this every time a major country withdrew. Given that the US are the last remaining foreign force in the country it is makes this by default the end of all coalition combat action. What about:
Every article I'm reading says U.S. troops, no mention of a 'coalition'. Without the Obama intro, that leaves:
The final U.S. combat troops withdraw ahead of schedule from Iraq, leaving 50,000 U.S. soldiers who will continue to train and advise the Iraqi Armed Forces. Jusdafax 08:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is because all of the other countries have already left (clearly shown in the coalition article). That previous leavers were Australia and the UK last year. If the focus is just on the U.S. troops leaving then I would agree with others that as 50,000 are remaining what is the big deal? I mean why is the fact that US combat troops leaving anymore notable than when UK troops left? If the focus is on the fact that these actions mean an end to all combat operations in Iraq by foreign troops, then that is a big deal. The two things are completely different --Daviessimo (talk) 08:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I lean support, since while it's not the end of the war, it's the end of active US participation in the war--from now on, our troops are limited to an advisory role, it's really Iraq's problem now. It's gone from a war conducted by the US with help from Iraq to a war conducted by Iraq with help from the US, and I think the distinction is important enough for ITN. (BTW, I think a link to [[Iraq War wouldn't come amiss, maybe as a piped link with "combat operations" in the second blurb TFOWR suggested. C628 (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would actually support a listing on August 31, given proper updates, as it is on that date that Operation Iraqi Freedom, a combat mission, officially becomes Operation New Dawn (which oddly, currently redirects to the ongoing Afghan War), a training mission. That sounds more ITN significant than hazy definitions of what the size, role and status of a combat force has to be for a withdrawal of them to be considered significant, common sense wise, rather than media hype/govt. spin wise, especially since prior changes, like handing over the green zone, have been way more significant to the Iraq War than this change. MickMacNee (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would seem to make more sense than posting it now actually. Unfortunately, that leaves us over 40 hours without an update, which I haven;t seen in a while. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't particularly like that idea, it's completely symbolic, now that there aren't any more combat troops present, that's pretty what the US's mission is right now, since all the remaining troops can do is train and support Iraqi troops if requested. There isn't any difference between what's going on now and what will happen on August 31. C628 (talk) 18:53, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Proof? If there is any legal basis to this switchover in troop roles, then it is more likely that it occurs when the mission name changes, and not just when a few soldiers get on a plane. MickMacNee (talk) 20:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Anyone who thinks this isn't significant doesn't understand how post-combat operations work. 50,000 support troops does sound like a lot to the average layman—there are countries whose entire militaries aren't even that large—but it's a very small number in terms of U.S. operations. We have more than 50,000 troops in Germany, but I think it's safe to say World War II is over. We have about 30,000 troops in South Korea and 35,000 in Japan, but we are not at war there, either. The U.S. always leaves garrisons after a war; that doesn't mean the war isn't over. Furthermore, I would oppose waiting until August 31; we don't have to place an artificial hold on actual news just so we can reach some change-over in military jargon. On Wikipedia, the tail does not wag the dog. KafzielComplaint Department 18:35, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I really wonder why people feel the need to treat everyone like they're idiots at ITN. If you want to actually educate the layman, then lay out what 'combat operations' these leaving troops have been involved in these last few months, or even years, as opposed to what the remaining garrison will be doing, which is primarily sitting in protected bases. And as above, if you want to educate the layman, then please explain where you get the idea that the events of Aug 31 are/will be irrelevant, and are simply a change in 'jargon'. To me, pretending that the US forces have just transitioned from 'combat troops' to 'training troops' is also just pointless jargon. MickMacNee (talk) 20:00, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Kafziel was trying to treat people like idiots, he was just making comparisons. Quite interesting ones, I thought. There's no harm in giving people food for thought, the consensus is still not clear. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:12, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HJ is right - I'm certainly not trying to treat you or anyone else like an idiot, Mick. Not understanding something doesn't make you an idiot, as long as you're willing to talk about it. I know very little about, say, physics, so I would never get mad at someone for trying to give me some perspective.
As for your question, troops do lots of things. Some gather intelligence. Some train Iraqi troops. Some work in warehouses, distributing everything from pound cakes to gas masks. Some fix transmissions, some are security guards, some work in hospitals, some cook dinner, some draw maps, some process the mountains of paperwork generated by the others. Some spend most of their time cleaning bathrooms, filling sandbags, changing lightbulbs, mopping floors, painting signs, and bringing officers their dinner. Combat troops have combat missions, while all these other pogues do not. Just as there's a world of difference between a SWAT team sniper and the guy who maintains the evidence locker back at the station, there's a world of difference between combat troops and support troops.
And, yes, the names of military operations are, by definition, jargon. They are arbitrarily made up by some guy in the basement of the Pentagon who thinks they sound cool, and their meaning is impossible to decipher without prior knowledge. If you had no context, you could never guess exactly what Operation Enduring Freedom was. All these "operations" are just military code words that have entered the public consciousness through increased media exposure. We are not beholden to them. The military makes lots of plans, and they don't always reflect reality. If combat troops are out, combat troops are out, and we don't have to wait for General Petraeus to give it the thumbs-up. If anything, at least in terms of what the military is doing, generals and government officials are less reliable sources than journalists on the ground. I'm as skeptical as the next guy (moreso, probably) and we never know what tomorrow will bring, but for now, this is extremely significant. KafzielComplaint Department 22:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you still didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, and you still didn't really answer my points. MickMacNee (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how I could clarify it further. I guess we'll have to live with that. KafzielComplaint Department 07:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - as nominator, in case there is any doubt. Jusdafax 19:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I realize these are !votes and not votes, but by my count it is 8 in favor and 4 against. Just sayin'. Jusdafax 19:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose 30% are still there, it and as this shows it isn't a very big change. Prodegotalk 19:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC... "A further 6,000 support troops will be in Iraq until the end of the month, when US combat operations will end.", Wouldn't it be a lot better to post when they announce that US combat operations have indeed ended rather than changes in military numbers. if 50000 is a lot or less or whatever are all opinions and dont have much basis. If at the end of month they ship in more military then this was merely a troop change. From what i can tell the last brigade has started moving and there is no actual official statement on what that really means. Which will come at the end of the month. hence oppose for now. -- Ashish-g55 20:25, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
U.N. warns more Pakistan relief badly needed
While the main story link will be to 2010 Pakistan floods, this story is continuing to unfold in press headlines around the world. A U.N. official says that, amazingly, "The Indus River is [still] at 40 times its normal volume." The blurb, however would not be on the floods themselves but the U.N.'s urgent warnings regarding the huge human disaster in progress, with millions in need of help and so far, not getting it. Respectfully, I challenge potential opposers to produce a a more newsworthy story than this one for today. Jusdafax 20:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Maybe it's time to just shut ITN down. Interest in it seems to have completely died, most if not all new nominations are hopeless stubs, or systematically biased, or have a hundred other flaws. Obvious candidates do not happen frequently enough, and with decent enough updates, to justify this huge section. And no matter what anyone does, this idea that the section is not simply a news ticker just will not die it seems. Just shut it down, implement a horizontally scrolling bar along the top of the Main Page for ongoing news, and think of something better to do with the rest of the space. Like giving proper recognition to DYK contributors. It's beyond belief that this is what? the fourth time this item is about to be bumped. It's a flood. A big flood, but just a flood. There isn't even a basic nomination here showing that the article has actually been updated. Has it? Who knows. Who cares. ITN was supposedly created for publicising 9/11 articles. Can you imagine if that ever happened again, how many times those items would get bumped for being an ongoing event? Jesus. Enough already. Let's tear this useless section down. MickMacNee (talk) 21:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I strongly disagree with your thoughts and must also suggest your tone is hardly conducive to collaborative editing on this project. The challenge before us is to improve this remarkable resource and draw more contributors. Suggestions we throw in the towel are unconstructive here. And I did in fact check the article, and was quite impressed by the work done there, complete with a country-by-country table noting donations to date. Jusdafax 21:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Noted. Jusdafax 04:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are you outing yourself as the imposter who keeps stalking me, who is clearly pissed at some prior disptue I've had with them and now creates imposter accounts to make edits like the one you just linked to? Anything to confess Doc? Are you harbouring the wrong kind of feelings for me? MickMacNee (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose its already been posted. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The United Nations urges potential donors to speed the pace of relief efforts for millions of victims of the ongoing 2010 Pakistan floods. (2x edit conflict) Jusdafax 21:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Still not expressing an opinion, but an update would need prose, not just pretty tables and the blurb would need to be in the present tense. As it is, apart from being in the past tense, it sounds a bit like an appeal for donations. We'd need something alog the lines of "The UN announces it needs more money". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tense corrected, which was easy. I also updated the article's lede. I daresay more could be updated in the body of the article. Jusdafax 22:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, now I've clicked through instead of over-depending on popups, I see the article is tagged with a rather unsightly {{copyedit}} tag. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - not a major new development in a story we've already posted more than once. Humanitarian disaster requires aid?!? Who'd have thought it. Modest Geniustalk 21:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. After the 2010 Gansu mudslide, the total death toll from the 2010 China floods exceeded that of the Pakistan floods, and the 305 million affected in China was a far cry from Pakistan's 20 million. An important update for the Gansu disaster was needed on August 15 for the National Day of Mourning declared in the country, but that still was not posted. This story has already been bumped more than once, although it will likely continue for a few more months. ~AH1(TCU) 23:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose this is old news. most of the people affected were starving anyway floods or no floods. Also this crisis is likely to continue for months if not years. can't keep on putting it on ITN every few days.--Wikireader41 (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Really old news at this point. One bump was more than enough. Courcelles 04:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If posting Kagan was controversial, this would be courageous. It barely has national - let alone international - implications. I'd only support to get that stunning hair on the main page.--Mkativerata (talk) 05:09, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per global notability. btw- its not even nominated in the box above(Lihaas (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
I assume you mean the current events template. It's listed under August 17 there, since that's when the verdict was read. ~DCLet's Vent 06:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose only convicted on a relatively minor charge. If he's convicted of conspiring to sell Obama's old Senate seat, then we'll talk. ~DCLet's Vent 06:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Illinois has a long history of political corruption. this really is business as usual in springfield. Yawn. WSJ--Wikireader41 (talk) 07:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. domestic US news. MickMacNee (talk) 13:39, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I might have supported but the overwhelming opposition, particularly from editors better-informed on the matter than I am, convinces me otherwise. Per DC, though, I could support a conviction for trying to sell Obama's Senate seat. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:40, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on technical grounds, as we already ran the story of him being impeached (is that the correct term?), and as there is likely to be a retrial on the more "juicy" allegations. I would certainly reconsider a nomination for a conviction on trying to sell Obama's Senate seat, but let's see what comes of it. Physchim62(talk) 23:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fiji officially designates the word "Fijian" as the term for the nationality of all the people of the islands including Indo-Fijians. The word was previously used only for indigenous inhabitants. (People's Daily)(Fijivillage)
A train derails in Sudbury, Suffolk, UK after hitting a sewage truck on a level crossing, injuring 18 people. Main article: 2010 Sudbury train accident.
A U.S. report claims that the Chinesemilitary has been secretly expanding; the U.S. asks for dialogue with China to avert a "miscalculated" response. (BBC)(Al Jazeera)
Article is updated. Sanctions resulting from an sporting scandal that gripped france and was covered extensively around the world.BBCGuardianMickMacNee (talk) 23:01, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems interesting - assuming the article is good enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see evidence this has hit America, but a support anyway. Different, certainly. f o x 23:13, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The impact is misleading because Nicolas Anelka has borne just about all of the "team" ban himself. Doesn't have international impact.--Mkativerata (talk) 23:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't have international impact? You mean, a national football team losing four players (just before the Qualifying for the European Championships gets underway next month) isn't international? f o x 23:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be something resembling a consensus emerging here. I've yet to check the article, but does anyone have any suggestions for an improved blurb, particularly to alleviate Mkativerata's point. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me, more or less. Having checked the article, it seems adequately updated and the timer is ticking away towards turning red. Thus, posting. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note. The update at Nicolas Anelka is not up to standard yet, so please don't bold it without checking first. I would have been neutral on this one, but HJ makes the point that we're in a short news season so I'll go for weak support. Physchim62(talk) 00:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I usually hate ex post facto opposes, but for this one I can't help it. I don't really see the significance of this one at all... really one athlete got a substantial suspension. Happens all the time, for all kinds of reasons. Not to mention the update is a single sentence; sorry, but this never should have been posted. Courcelles 01:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to give any remotely similar example, I know of none at all. The item pretty obviosuly wasn't just about some player getting suspended, just like the endless bumping of the horizon oil spill wasn't just about whatever bit of news had occured at the time. It is the conclusion of the whole saga, which has been a huge deal in France and World Football. MickMacNee (talk) 02:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the update, I disagree with you. It's fairly clearly been updated as the event has progressed, so the strike and its repercussions are well covered in the article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
removed due to lack of consensus. Second I also oppose. This has less impact that Abramovich or some other tycoon pumping in 500million and then the coach/board go crazy and buy a pile of leading players, or the reverse when a team goes broke. Anelka already retired anyway, and this kind of politics is common in common in developing countries's sports systems, eg South America, or in cricket, in Pakistan or India were the whole cricket board gets turfed out in a opaque boardroom coup with some help from underworld figures threatening officials or getting cabinet politicians to arrest them for corruption. Even in the England cricket team in 2008 there was a power struggle between the captain/coach resulting in both being sacked/forced to resign, and in football-type sports where all the players have to operate quickly in a synchronised way, it's the coach that makes the success/failure, much more than the players in such sports as baseball, cricket, or relay races. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'Asian cricket is corrupt' so that means unprecedented events in international football are unimportant. Good luck with refereeing that trade off next time, this bizarre logic could be applied to any nomination about any subject. It's nonsense. MickMacNee (talk) 02:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, one federation making a foolish example of one player for the most part, not that significant. Grandmasterka 01:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as minor sporting news, of interest only to those who follow the sport. HJ, just because the timer is ticking doesn't mean we should post something which has no consensus. Better to go a while without an update than to keep adding and shortly removing items. Modest Geniustalk 01:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's a few billion people tbf, and in international football, let alone French politics, this was not minor news at all. That's way more interested people than the population of the United States, so maybe Mwalcoff will be along to give his support now. MickMacNee (talk) 02:48, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, I don't think that anyone can say this is minor sporting news given that this is direct fall out from a player strike during the biggest professional sporting competition in the world. That being said, it may be in the news, but I fail to see any encyclopaedic value. I've said it many times before, but just because something is big news doesn't mean it is ITN worthy. After the debacle regarding the Chinese economy (us blindly telling everyone that China now has the second biggest economy because it had beaten the GDP output of Japan over one quarter - something it has done at least twice before!) maybe its time to stop relying so heavily on what the media say and do and think for ourselves --Daviessimo (talk) 07:39, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Former President and Prime-minister of Italy dies at age 82. Notable enough? - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 15:37, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, but the article is in need of quite a bit of work- it's quite skimpy on the details of his career and it will need information on his death. I would be surprised if the article could be brought up to scratch quickly enough, but it's happened before. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I see this just got posted without consensus. This guy was only briefly PM of Italy and later served in the fairly powerless position of President. He's now died of old age and the death hasn't impacted anything. To add to that, the article is substandard, not even discussing his tenure as PM.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Mkativerata. I don't want to discourage article development, but I'm not convinced of the ITN-level significance if the article turned into a GA overnight. Courcelles 07:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, however the article is almost entirely unreferenced so it's rather moot. He may well have been a boring and non-confrontational president, and only a caretaker PM, but he was still head of state of a G8 country. Modest Geniustalk 22:14, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article has several issues to be addressed, as Courcelles and Modest Genius point out. Diego Grezwhat's up? 01:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Baghdad bombing
Apparently there was one this morning (though there is no online source yet as BBC World is on breaking news) that killed over 41 recruits to the Army. (probably the number will go up) and over 100 wounded.(Lihaas (talk) 06:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support - As soon as an article goes up, of course. Jusdafax 06:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC) Update: per New York Times, thanks Arsonal, will add to your article now. Jusdafax 07:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC) Update 2: Added some more, I see Lihaas did the startup work on the article, thanks. Jusdafax 08:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Article is in reasonable shape, though, to be picky, it's an orphan. I also moved it to 17 August 2010 Baghdad bombing since it's not the first attack in Baghdad in August and is unlikely to be the last. I'll wait for some more comments, but if the consensus that's emerging holds, I'll post it soon. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:11, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In the afternoon coverage of this, the war correspondent was relaying how it was not so long ago that they didn't even bother reporting bombings if the death toll was not over 50, so I'm struggling to see how/why this death toll is ITN worthy now. While they are apparently becoming less frequent, I think we are still in the period where a mass bombing in Iraq is really not ITN material. MickMacNee (talk) 13:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Definitely not enough victims to make the ITN quota. They should try to be more efficient. Crnorizec (talk) 14:05, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Says the person who thinks an explosion at some hospital is notable. I've no opinion on this as an ITN item, but it's probably notable enough for an article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Death toll now at 60 with 125 others wounded.[32] This is undoubtedly deserving of going on the front page. Truthsort (talk) 15:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support since death count is quite high. below 20-25 would deserve an oppose but 60 is pretty high. -- Ashish-g55 15:20, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We appear to be reaching consensus to move forward. The article is adequate, for a brand new article. Suggested blurb below. Jusdafax 16:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why "at least 50"? The article says 60 (the same number I just saw on the news) and it's sourced, so, aside from the usual uncertainty about casualty figures associated with this kind of thing, is there much reason to doubt that? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Clearly notable, need to make sure the same amount of deaths is mentioned in the blurb as in the article though. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The LA Times is reporting 51, and I see other numbers floating around, so like BW I want to get it right. My thing is to err on the side of caution and move the figure up (poor souls) as it gets clearer. I'd work further but have to be afk a couple hours. Will be back to help finish up (as needed, or if needed) soon. Thanks all! Jusdafax 22:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I'd consider bombings with 40+ deaths worthy of mention, since smaller ones are so common, but attacks of this scale are still fairly unusual. BTW, I think the reason the LA Times is reporting a lower toll is because it hasn't been updated since 1:11 this morning, probably Pacific time. C628 (talk) 23:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Israeli courts deem that its government was "responsible" for the death of a female Palestinian child, who was hit by a rubber bullet in 2007. (BBC)(Aljazeera)
Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair is to give the £4.6 million advance and all royalties from his forthcoming memoirs, A Journey, to a sports centre for badly injured soldiers; pacifists and the families of soldiers killed under his leadership call it "blood money". (BBC)(Sky News)(The Guardian)
An explosion at a maternity hospital in Romania's capital has killed three babies, while two pregnant women and eight newborn infants sustained burns and other injuries. YahooNewsReuters[33] - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 20:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's a shame, but I doubt the article will last long and I strongly oppose posting it on ITN. This is nowhere near our significance requirement. Modest Geniustalk 20:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sad, but no lasting significance. Eugen Simion 14, please stop creating more work for other editors with your single-sentence sub stubs that are almost invariably deleted via PROD or AfD. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:24, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Coverage in news sources does not indicate lasting significance. The sources themselves are quite "stubby" without any chance of more detailed coverage. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 07:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Eugen Simion 14, you might consider contributing to Wikinews [34] if these kind of articles are your thing. They would be more appropriate over there. --Monotonehell 12:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- 1 killed, 114 injured in Colombia, after a Boeing crash in San Andreas. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 13:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
dont think enough happened here to be on ITN. I'm not even sure it deserves its own article right now. -- Ashish-g55 13:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose fortunately only one fatality. ~DCLet's Vent 16:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose despite the dramatic photo of the jet in 3 pieces... am also glad to see one one fatality. Amazing though. Jusdafax 18:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support do people have to die for this to become a news? The fact that the previous members have also emphasized is that it is "fortunate", "dramatic", and "amazing". Good enough for me, to make a GOOD NEWS. Crnorizec (talk) 22:24, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
conditional support per plane crashes on ITN. the fiselage split apart on crash.
Is there a precedence/rule for this. What is the criteria? Simply editor voting or ITN-rules, if not we need the latter to set some rules down.(Lihaas (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support per all of the above (I find the two opposes ironic as they are both followed by what I see as valid reasons to support). 119 injured (according to the article)? A developed article? A governor calling it a "miracle"? Several nationalities from at least three continents on board, hence international appeal, not very local, etc. Crnorizec has a good point. Must all ITNs be horrific? And where did such an idea come from? Low death tolls and a high amount of injuries have been posted before, e.g. this (2 bombings, 2 deaths - both deaths in 1 bombing - mainly about a large number of injuries). --candle•wicke 00:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
well my oppose was when the article was 2 lines long. It has been expanded quite a bit since. But even then i dont know if posting plane crashes with 1 fatality is a good idea. More people die in regular car accidents. And i dont mean to be cruel but the 1 fatality was due to heart attack and not injuries. The injuries were not all necessarily severe either. I mean ya its a plane crash but there has been quite a few in past year. So i am still opposed to this. -- Ashish-g55 01:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And, in my point of view, posting this after not posting the Otter crash last week is laughable. ~DCLet's Vent 01:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well the events are not really comparable. One was the crash of a privately operated light aircraft whilst the other was the crash and hull loss of a narrow-bodied commercial aeroplane. Also, in that case the emphasis was placed on who had been killed and not the crash itself. That being said, there have been 148 previous hull loss accidents with the 737 and with only one death I fail to see how this is main page worthy. For me, a low number or no fatalities needs notability elsewhere (e.g. British Airways Flight 38 as first hull loss for 777 or US Airways Flight 1549 as successful water landing) and in this instance I can't see any. I mean planes get hit by lightning all the time... --Daviessimo (talk) 06:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In my view the 'China becomes number two economy' is a much bigger global story than the plane crash. Put up both if that's consensus but to exclude China and put up plane crash isn't right. Jusdafax 02:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Daviessimo just said above that it was because of a successful water landing which is rare. And all the passengers survived from what was surely going to be a major accident. That is definitely news worthy. Also it was first time that happened in recent history. I dont think it would be as big a deal if it happened again. -- Ashish-g55 14:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Obviously !. Yug(talk) 10:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In principle, support. However, I think we've had this announcement three times already in the last couple of months. --Tone 11:47, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I think this time its for real ;-)(NYT)--Wikireader41 (talk) 12:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there isn't much of a prose update (unless I missed it while skimming the article) and I doubt much can be updated. So I'm not sure it's suitable to post because of that. ~DCLet's Vent 16:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. 2nd is not notable. MickMacNee (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An obvious item. I'm not sure what Tone is alluding to though, so I might reconsider based on an understanding of that. __meco (talk) 16:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Past Discussion. IIRC, when this item was first tentatively put forth through the Chinese media, the "general" consensus was to wait for posting until the claim was independently verified by the international press. It appears that now the story has been validated... Thoughts? Cwill151 (talk) 16:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Major news as a milestone. China continues to make strides as a world power, and this shows that. Number two economy behind the USA is notable. Good ITN item, in my view. DC's point should be dealt with, however. Jusdafax 18:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - as previously nominator for this story. While in general being #2 isn't notable, being #2 global economy is a pretty big deal. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have any kind of an update? I suppose the PRC article would be the logical choice. If there is something, I'm willing to post this based on the consensus above. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bloody hell, that article's massive. I'd have concerns with putting that on the MP since it could take bloody ages to load for those on slow connections. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Post now? article has been updated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.65.21.27 (talk) 21:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's only two sentences. ~DCLet's Vent 21:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose granted we now have confirmation, still dont think its that notable just because econ. data keeps coming and going (4 times a year for this) and it can fluctuate.(Lihaas (talk) 22:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support Japan's economy has been stunted for 20 years and China is at 11% pa, so even if they have a slowdown they still won't get overtaken. These aren't a group of similar economies growing at 1-3% that can overtake each other back and forth YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 01:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, please post. Jusdafax 06:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I don't mean to sound like a Wiki-lawyer, but in posting this, we should keep in line with WP:NC-TW, and use "People's Republic of China" instead of just "China". Night w (talk) 06:47, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I've had a read over some of the news articles and unless I'm being blind I can't see where China's data is coming from. Is it the same data they released a couple of weeks back, because if so surely we should be waiting until the IMF or World Bank verify what is being said --Daviessimo (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was on the BBC News channel last night. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I oppose because the data only relates to one quarter. For the second quarter of 2010, China surpassed Japan by nominal GDP, but for the first six months as a whole (i.e. first and second quarters combined) Japan is still ahead of China (as stated in the bllomberg article). Now, as List of countries by GDP (nominal) uses data amassed over four quarters and this information is verified by the IMF etc I think it is presumptuous to start saying China has overtaken Japan as the second biggest economy when it has only surpasses it for one quarter --Daviessimo (talk) 07:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the least bit presumptuous. As YellowMonkey points out, japan's economy has been stagnant for 20 years whereas China has a 10% increase per year. __meco (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it is, because you are essentially predicting the future based on past trends and it is not our place to do that. It is highly likely (in fact probably a certainty) that China will surpass Japan over four quarters of 2010, but if it is good enough for the IMF or World Bank to wait, then why not us. At the end of the day, the data for 2010 shows that even though China surpassed Japan in the second quarter of the year, over the first two quarters of 2010, Japan still had a higher GDP. Thus for us to say China is bigger because "Japan's economy is stagnant/China is growing rapidly" completely defeats the purpose of accurate statistical evaluation --Daviessimo (talk) 08:26, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we have a rough consensus to post this. Any suggestions for the blurb? (actually, I'd like to know which articles exactly to feature) --Tone 08:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you are going to post this I would make sure it is clear that China has only surpassed Japan for the second quarter of 2010 and not 2010 as a whole and avoid stating categorically that China has become the second biggest economy without independent verification --Daviessimo (talk) 08:28, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
China's Economy surged in the second quarter of 2010 to, for the first yearly quarter ever, become second only to that of the United States.Jusdafax 09:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with either; was worried about length so I left Japan out, but would be happy with yours if it is not considered too long. Jusdafax 09:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted This item poses a myriad of problems. For example, the headline should, ideally, be in present tense. -- tariqabjotu 09:22, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Inspections of Israel's nuclear programme are urged by some concerned countries in a letter sent to Britain, China, France, Russia and the United States. (Aljazeera)
In Baghdad, Iraq multiple suicide bombings go off during mid-day rush hour, killing 4 and injuring about 16, another strike at 7:15am hits a mini-bus heading from Sadr City into downtown Baghdad, killing 3 including a police officer, and 9 others are wounded. Also, three other bombs go off simultaneously in a business district killing 1 and injuring 7. (AFP via Google News)
Romani evictions and deportations from illegal campsites by French authorities:
A major road bridge is barricaded near Bordeaux during a holiday weekend by Romani objecting to forced evictions by French authorities. (BBC)
Politicians, some from within PresidentNicolas Sarkozy's own party, object to the treatment of the Romani as "reminiscent of roundups during the war". (Deutsche Welle)
Given it's way overdue for an update, I was thinking of bumping the mudslide one up, noting the day of mourning held today. Sort of a band-aid rather than an actual fix, but better than nothing, I suppose. Suggested blurb: "A day of mourning is held for the victims of the 2010 Gansu mudslide." C628 (talk) 23:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support merging this information into the existing blurb. ~AH1(TCU) 01:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There should be no bumping at ITN period. The list of things people think are significant enough to qualify for a bump is seemingly never ending. MickMacNee (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Shrug* I just proposed this because the golf thing was going nowhere at the time, it was something like 30+ hours without an update, and this was the best I could think of. Doesn't really matter anymore. C628 (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Opppose - many sports starting/finishing their seasons are not added. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you took two seconds to look at the article, you'd realize how factually off your statement is. ~DCLet's Vent 16:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:ITNR#Golf. However, the article will need a prose update. At the moment it's a list of participants and tables of results, with only the first day mentioned in any text. Modest Geniustalk 16:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if WP:ITNT#Golf says it's the way to go, let's do it. Jusdafax 18:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support when sports tournaments are dont the winner is customarily announced on ITN.(Lihaas (talk) 20:53, 15 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Comment: the timer's red, so sooner or later someone's going to start hassling mop people. This has support, so I'm inclined to promote it. Are there any issues with having two sports-related ITNs next to each other? TFOWR 21:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the article is postable in its current state: it has almost no prose whatsoever. So my support is in principle only. Normally I would do the work myself rather than sit in my armchair but I need to go to work. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and we edit conflicted as I was about to ask for a blurb (which is conspicuously missing, and makes life very difficult for the lazy admin. I can hang about and whine until someone sorts the article out - or we get support for something else (not sure what, though). TFOWR 21:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb is at the top, just fill in Golfer X. The article hasn't been updated yet, but then again the tournament is still ongoing, with the title still up for grabs. So we need to a) wait for the tournament to finish b) get a results table and a prose update and c) fill in the name of Golfer X. Modest Geniustalk 21:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone know when it's scheduled to end? C628 (talk) 23:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Too late for me - I'm logging off in a few minutes. Blurb at top noted, TFOWR's spectacles cleaned and polished. Prose update still needed... TFOWR 00:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update seems sufficient, who wants to post? ~DCLet's Vent 07:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not so sure. The playoff prose is a massive unsourced tract of text, whereas the prose for some of the full rounds of the tournament is barely a sentence long.--Mkativerata (talk) 07:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've just gone on a slightly pointy tagging frenzy - hopefully that'll encourage some improvements. If I get time I'll try and educate myself about this mysterious sport and fill in the gaps, but ideally someone(s) with clue would fill in the gaps. TFOWR 08:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note to admins: An alternative method of posting the story is bolding the winning golfer's name rather than the tournament itself. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 09:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd actually prefer that: Martin Kaymer looks to be in quite good shape. OK, so the revised blurb would be:
If there's consensus for that, I'll post it within a couple of hours (allowing time for you all to tell me what I'm doing wrong ;-) TFOWR 10:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I knew that, honest! ;-) That looks good. I may append "...at Whistling Straits" depending on balancing needs, but I don't think the course is as important as the sport. TFOWR 10:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. --Tone 11:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Independent on Sunday - "set to become the first animation to take $1bn at box offices globally after becoming the highest grossing animation ever". --candle•wicke 01:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Good international story, the worldwide box office is astonishing, timely, will look great on the main page with a photo. The article is in reasonably good shape as well. Jusdafax 01:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Calm down - Highest-grossing animation movie is not really that notable, considering that inflation is not taken into account. And it is now at $920mil, and since it made 30 mil overseas and 3 mil in US last week, it means that probably at least another week or two will pass before getting close to the round mark. Nergaal (talk) 04:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Crossing the billion dollar mark does not mean as much as it did when Return of the King did it. Toy Story will be the seventh movie to gross that much and that does not make it very notable, even if it is an animated film. It won't even be the first film of this year to gross over a billion dollars worldwide. --PlasmaTwa2 05:50, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless and until it becomes the highest-earning film ever. We can't go dividing things up into genres, or we'd be forever posting stories about the highest earning horror/documentary/blacksploitation/pornographic/musical/whatever and getting into problems of defining which category things fell into. Modest Geniustalk 14:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
realistically speaking no animation movie is going to ever be the highest grossing film ever. A billion in itself is just a number. I will support when Toy Story passes Return of the king and sits at #3 since thats the prime realistic spot for any movie. Catching 2 above is just ridiculous -- Ashish-g55 15:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Mainly due to the fact that it appears factually wrong. The highest grossing film of all time is Avatar, which is animated. Unless there's some loophole where it doesn't count... --Smashvilletalk 19:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Avatar is live action with significant computer animation. Toy Story 3 is entirely computer animated. Technicality? Maybe, but I doubt Avatar would have been considered for Best Animated Film. :P --Golbez (talk) 19:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IMO Avatar was the other way around - animated with significant live action. But that's exactly the problem with having per-genre records. Modest Geniustalk 21:32, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose no record breaking, we cant added caveats to everything. no big deal either, and certainly no wide press (int'l or even american wide outside the entertainment media)(Lihaas (talk) 20:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
A rally takes place outside Google's offices in the U.S. state of California against a proposal to change online data treatment. (BBC)
Gabon signs over US$4 billion of contracts with Indian and Singaporean companies for infrastructure projects, on the eve of the country's 50th anniversary since independence. (AFP)(Xinhua)(Press TV)
China announces a national day of mourning for the victims of mudslides in the northwest of the country, as the death toll rises to 1,239 people. (China Daily)(BBC)(Aljazeera)
Several political parties in Azerbaijan release a statement criticising the ruling of Baku Yasamal Court against 15 Shia Muslims, arrested in February while practising their religion in Baku. (Press TV)
Support if they decide to completely suspend the event. Something like this is notable enough for ITN. --PlasmaTwa2 05:52, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Hmm, a stray bullet of unknown source, while the tournament is being played on a military base. Sorry, but 'Venezuelan armed forces are incompetent' is not an ITN worthy event, it's a given. Much like all the 'USA learns new skills' nominations. MickMacNee (talk) 15:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, given that it seems to be continuing, albeit in a different location. Sucks for the person who got shot, but since there's no lasting impact on the event, I don't see the importance. C628 (talk) 15:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, isnt it softball? as in the olympics. support if the event is called off because that is not usual. Munich 72, Atlanta 96, etc, etc were not called off.(Lihaas (talk) 20:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support brawls etc are not notable, but knife and gun attacks certainly are, eg Seles being stabbed...as for the event not being cancelled neither was Munich nor the tennis tournament YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's being described as a stray bullet and not an attack. At the moment it sounds like an accident which hit a single low notability person (Cheuk Woon Yee is currently red) who is reported to not be seriously injured. The tournament itself is not particularly high profile in the world of sports and it goes on. Monica Seles was the world no 1 in the probably highest profile women's sport when she was deliberately attacked. This baseball incident is not like that. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough but why do you assume something is of low notability because of a red link? Everything starts somewhere and everything here was once a red link. --candle•wicke 23:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also Googled her and the result seemed modest for an athlete at a World Cup. I just did a new search and got more hits due to the shooting. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems like a pretty big deal - especially as its the first. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:19, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. On the one hand it's the first incarnation of something which might possibly become a major international event. On the other hand it's getting virtually no press attention (at least in the UK: hidden well down the BBC sport page and not mentioned at all on the Guardian version), and it's just a youth version of a notable competition. We don't post the youth versions of any other major tournaments such as the FIFA U-20 World Cup or the IRB Junior World Championship. Modest Geniustalk 12:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support As an inaugural event, this deserves to be mentioned. The possible future of the event is far from now, and we should not comment about it. Votes slanted on the fact that it has not received enough attention since, are not criterion that should be roughly respected here. Also, it is silly to compare such event with junior events in single sports.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - a fine upbeat story with international appeal. As consensus appears to have formed, suggest we move forward. Jusdafax 14:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note This piece of news was also discussed at the Future events section of In the News. See here. Shall we continue the discussion here instead of there? ANGCHENRUITalk♨ 14:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The original statement included participant no. and info, which are not really primary to what we intend to report. You may also wish to refer to past news statements on multi-sports events for a better idea; i.e. archives. Regards, ANGCHENRUITalk♨ 14:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the mention of The Float@Marina Bay. It does not add much, and the weird style of the name makes the whole thing a lot less understandable. Possibly write The Float at Marina Bay per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks)(Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official": e.g. avoid: REALTOR®) /Coffeeshivers (talk) 08:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is done. Third time I've done this now (second was just now) so a spot of sanity checking wouldn't go amiss. Also, someone doling out the ITN award would be appreciated. I'm going for a nice cup of tea and a lie down: me head hurts after all that fun. TFOWR 16:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done the awards as best I can. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are now a number of free images available of the opening ceremony. I would recommend this one if an admin wants to use it, but feel free to use any other ones that have been uploaded. The cauldron images don't look too great at the moment. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 08:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Many politicians and others have already voiced an opinion. As president, Obama will get more attention than most, but I don't think raises his (largely predictable) opinion on the matter rises to the level of being ITN worthy. I would also note that Cordoba House hasn't been updated at all to reflect this info (though presumably that could be corrected). Dragons flight (talk) 08:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Dragons flight. Additionally, the story is still premature and does not have a conclusive result. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 08:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, Obama has stated that the sky is blue. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Actually, I think this could be an angle which made it possible to post the Ground Zero mosque controversy on ITN. It is an extremely divisive issue in New York City and elsewhere in the United States, and, even though that is fringe, with the contentions about Obama's own heritage, and the less contentious fact that he is the supreme leader of the country weighing in on the issue, combine to elevate this conflict beyond a local politicized quibble to a battle for the heart and soul of that nation. __meco (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose If Obama had opposed the construction that might have been worthy of inclusion (owing to the subtext "President considers all Moslems guilty by association in the 11 September attacks, and so seeks to prohibit their right to buy and use property in the vicinity") but he didn't. Despite the misleading headline in the cited NYT article, nothing is quoted to say that he thinks it is positively a good thing that the centre be built: he simply asserts equality of rights of people of all religions and distinguishes between the attitudes and aims of Al-Qaida and mainstream Moslem opinion: it would hav been genuinely extraordinary for him to have said the opposite. "Queen joins BNP" would be ITNworthy: "Queen does not join BNP" is not. Kevin McE (talk) 11:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to miss the perspective that the only neutral thing would be for him to keep quiet on this issue. __meco (talk) 11:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose - this whole story is just a load of local-interest cruft. Obama's opinion certainly doesn't cut it. Nor will the judgement, nor the commencement of construction, nor the opening. Modest Geniustalk 12:20, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - unless I'm missing something, building a mosque in the United States is like building a factory, a chemist, a garage, whatever in the United States. Islam isn't banned in NYC so I don't get why this is such a huge deal. I imagine there were Moslems among the victims that day, too. (Basically, this story wouldn't exist if they were planning on putting a church there.) f o x 18:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now at least. A president simply offering support for something that currently does not exist and which may never exist? Perhaps if it is built... --candle•wicke 23:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A pile on, just to make it more obvious that this sort of US domestic news tedium is not ITN worthy. And since when was the US President not supposed to stick up for what the constitution actualy says? MickMacNee (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The eurozone economy grows by 1% in the second quarter of 2010, with the German economy growing by 2.2%, its fastest quarterly growth in more than 20 years. (BBC)(Aljazeera)(MarketWatch)(AP)
Peru's health ministry is deployed into the Amazon to battle the vampire bats blamed for the deaths of four children from rabies. (BBC)
India's health ministry completely rejects as "unscientific" and a "conspiracy" claims by researchers that medical tourists are spreading a new "superbug" that is alleged to have originated in the country. India states that its hospitals are safe. (Aljazeera)
Support. Unexpected death after what what is usually a safe operation (less than 1% of patients die from complications with angioplasty). Notable international relations career as well. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 02:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Arsonal. Can't wait for the "Malta is small" arguments. --PlasmaTwa2 02:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - also per Arsonal. Jusdafax 03:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the hospital has an article doesn't justify expanding the length of the blurb with a trivial detail, IMO. Courcelles 04:58, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm good with it either way, as long as it goes up quickly. :) Jusdafax 05:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per [36] and the article (which until yesterday was a copyvio) only has two sentences on his Presidency.--Mkativerata (talk) 07:32, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose He was not in office upon his death, he was replaced in 2004. Unless it can be shown that he was remarkable in some other way, I'm not sure that this qualifies as a death for ITN. Can anyone expand on his efforts to put Malta forward for the EU? That might be an angle, but I'm unsure if that would be enough. --Monotonehell 07:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment His death meets the second out of the three death criteria. Note that ITN only requires that a person's death meet one of those criteria. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 08:46, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm aware of the criteria and how to apply them. I from the info in his article I couldn't meet point two, but others seem to think so. --Monotonehell 17:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the death criteria. Took Malta into the EU, notable UN and Commonwealth roles too, seems significant enough for me. Admittedly the article is rather lacking, but it meets the ITN requirements. Modest Geniustalk 12:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support to globalise and give prominence outside the status quo, and per death criteria for ITN.(Lihaas (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
It is done. Given my track-record at ITN (non-existent/very poor), can someone sanity check what I've done? Doling out the requisite ITN baubles would be appreciated, too. TFOWR 16:07, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given I whined about the lack of updates on WP:ANI I believe I have done so. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Incidentally, I didn't update the picture (never done it before, scared I'd break something, etc etc) but I'd suggest this would be a good candidate item for a picture? I've just added the Singapore Youth Olympics, too, but I don't think there's a suitable picture yet? TFOWR 16:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support inclusion of picture. The Colombian Presidential picture is old and tiresome. ~AH1(TCU) 21:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support picture as well (most of the blue and stars could be removed - leaving the red and white of Malta - but maybe not if that offends Americans). --candle•wicke 23:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - 1. His knowledge of Maltese criminal law and parliamentary affairs are exceptional, probably best in the Maltese Islands. He was up to his death, a Professor at the University of Malta, lecturing second year students in the Bachelor of Laws (L.L.B) - study unit - Criminal Law, an undergraduate course leading to the postgraduate course of Doctor of Laws (L.L.D).
2.He indirectly propelled Malta to become a Republic during 1974, when Prime Minister Dom Mintoff needed a 2/3 votes in Parliament to amend the constitution. Guido de Marco was instrumental in a pact reached with the Opposition. Not so much is written about his Presidency, is due to the fact that the Maltese Presidency is largely a ceremonial position within the republic. None the less he submitted Malta's application to become a member of the European Communities on 16 July 1990 as Malta's Foreign Minister and later reactivated the frozen application in 1998 following 2 years in Opposition. --Gian (talk) 00:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it is to be included (I have no strong opinion), it raises severe version neutral English issues. The IPO article only describes the US situation (although it does not acknowledge this limitation), and UK banking, or at least its reporting in the non-specialist press, would describe this as a public share issue. Maybe the relevant form of ENGVAR should be that of Hong Kong. Kevin McE (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Obvious feature, a top business and finance headline. __meco (talk) 11:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, seems a significant business story, even if most people will think 'so what?'. We certainly can't use a TLA like 'IPO' in the blurb though, and as Kevin McE points out there are ENGVAR issues to avoid. Modest Geniustalk 12:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment In which article and what can be done to fix them? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:09, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the blurb. There are issues in IPO, but that's not a problem for ITN since it won't be bolded. Modest Geniustalk 13:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Story has a good international appeal, and as noted per: Meco is a top business/finance story. Jusdafax 14:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose flop IPO, unlike MakeMyTrip that surged 80% on day 1.Lihaas (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
By that logic the most notable IPOs are those in which the vendor massively underestimates the value of the company. Getting the valuation right and actually making money for the company would therefore be a bad thing. Which makes no sense at all. Modest Geniustalk 18:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is this guy thinking comparing the worst largest IPO at 22 bil with a puny Indian IPO of a few million. Offtopic? The fact that this ipo took place amid some pretty daunting market expectations and raised a record amount says something about its strength and was perhaps unexpected. ..I strongly support the blurb by Eraserhead as there's no question it is notable... Its possible that this record will not be topped for a long time. 76.65.20.89 (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For clarity (as it took ages for me to figure it out) the issue with the blurb is the term "IPO" which is an acronym and not necessarily perfectly clear. Though it does appear (as I show below) to be the term used in "Chinese English" so it shouldn't be a problem. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: if you can resolve the WP:ENGVAR issues around IPO I'd be up to sticking this up. For what it's worth, I remember learning what "IPO" meant only fairly recently (UK/NZ English speaker). TFOWR 16:20, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If by these ENGVAR issues you mean the fact that I've called them US$ that's only because without the qualifier they could be Hong Kong dollars given this is a Chinese business related story - and they are worth much less. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 16:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, it's the issue Kevin McE and Modest Genius mention, around "IPO". I'd be OK with "initial public offering" - if that's the usual Hong Kong English term. (i.e. it needs to be wikilinked - I can live with numpties like me not knowing the term if it's wikilinked - because I suspect we'll struggle to find a way to say it in neutral English). TFOWR 17:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just because the English versions of the Chinese press use the acronym 'IPO' doesn't mean we should too. Using undefined TLAs, particularly ones not used in certain parts of the world, is something we should avoid. It's not a complicated issue, just replace 'IPO' by 'initial public offering of shares' and it's fine. It's not as if the blurb has a length issue or anything. Modest Geniustalk 20:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I think TFOWR agrees with you. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:59, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do indeed. I think we'd struggle to find a suitable version neutral phrase, so "IPO" it is, but wikilinked as initial public offering. The whole main page experience terrifies me, so I'm going to hold off for now and promote this in the morning (if someone less easily scared hasn't done it already). I'd suggest using Eraserhead1's blurb, slightly modified: Agricultural Bank of China completed the world's largest ever initial public offering at US$22.1 billion. (I've removed "The" from the start, in addition to expanding "IPO"). TFOWR 21:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, it seems most of the regular admins aren't around this week. Probably another reason why I should go for an RFA :/. Oh and one error with the blurb: 'completed' -> 'completes' for present tense. Modest Geniustalk 21:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted TFOWR's blurb MG's modification and saying "raising" 22.1 billion. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I should say that ideally the article would have more sourced content on the bank's history. But seeing as we put up the death of a country's President with only two sentences on his Presidency, I don't think that can justifiably hold this posting back. The material in the article on the IPO is good enough. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Long speculated but never confirmed to exist, this monkey species is new to science and appears to be critically endangered. [40][41]Rlendog (talk) 02:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Interesting, and an important commentary on modern human interaction with other species, in my view. Jusdafax 05:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support though I don't think the article is good enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:52, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support; IIRC, there was a blurb on the discovery of...something...not too long ago. C628 (talk) 11:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - interesting new species, published in the peer-reviewed literature, receiving interest from the scientific press. The article is OK, certainly better than many of the disaster articles we feature. It could do with a picture though, for which I suggest using [42] under fair use (there are only a handful of pictures of this species in existence, so I don't think it could reasonably be replaced by a 'free' version). Modest Geniustalk 12:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Hang on a minute, this has a previous DYK listing from 27 July, how old is the story? Modest Geniustalk 12:41, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NATO forces kill three civilians in a raid on a house in Wardak Province, prompting hundreds of angry people to block a main road to express their frustration with the United States. (Aljazeera)
At least two people are killed, including one case of self-immolation from a balcony, while more than 80 sustain wounds after troops interrupt a protest against poor conditions with batons and flashbangs at a prison in Astana, Kazakhstan. (BBC)
Charles Taylor's defence lawyer Courtenay Griffiths is told not to speak, on a temporary basis, at Taylor's trial due to loss of temper; Griffiths apologises and is permitted to continue. (BBC)
Anti-government protests in Potosí, Bolivia enter their third week, affecting mining production, blocking road and air transport, stranding tourists and reducing food supplies. (BBC)
Scientists announce the discovery of a chemical compound which destroys the reproduction capabilities of bacteria that are antibiotic-resistant. (FierceBiotech)
With the meteor shower coming at a great time of year for northern hemisphere skywatchers, the good timing of a new moon, and the fact that it lasts several nights, this seems to be a good candidate for an ITN article. Add in to the mix the decent condition of the article (a couple good photos and good prose, although I notice two cite tags) and the upbeat feel of the item, which balances all the worldwide disasters. Hoping for a timely !vote, thanks. Jusdafax 16:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. ZHR is predicted to be only 80, which is nothing special. We'd be posting 3-5 showers a year at that sort of level. The article is OK, but the information relates to every Perseid shower, not just the one currently In the News. WP:ITNR already lists ZHR>1000 for automatic inclusion; I don't see anything particularly special about this shower that makes it stand out as a special case. Of course, if people want to have a handful of meteor stories per year we could start posting all the 'strong' ones, for some (probably difficult to decide) definition of strong. However, I doubt there will be much in the way of article updates for each strong shower every year. Modest Geniustalk 16:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With all respect, I'd ask for a reconsideration. I just went outside here in Florida, looked to the NE where the action is, and saw a nice big long one within a minute. Cool! I also note the Perseid's are a featured article on the MSN main page; I really think we are missing a bet. We don't have to feature every meteor show, but I think this one is a good article candidate because of favorable lunar conditions and a summer warm-weather treat in the northern hemisphere. A photo from the article would be awe-inspiring also. I am already tried of the president of Columbia's mug. Jusdafax 04:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'I saw it and it was cool' isn't really much of an argument I'm afraid. I'd like to see some input from other editors though, so I'm adding it to the feedback box. Modest Geniustalk 12:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This WAS a story that needed timely action, and didn't get that. Reducing my argument to one sentence, a personalized comment I made, is out of context. In any case the peak has come and gone, and I withdraw my nomination. Story is stale. Jusdafax 13:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The caveat of this story is that there appears to be flaws in Deolalikar's proof that have to be addressed. (BBC News) (See also the sources used on the Wikinews article for some additional sources.) Per WP:NORUSH, I am not proposing that we publish this story now. However, if this proof is confirmed (now or by someone else in the future), I would like to find out whether this kind of story would be appropriate for listing in ITN. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 07:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Millennium Prises were added to ITNR, so, yes, when confirmed, this goes up. Courcelles 07:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I did not notice. Thanks for the quick answer. :) —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 08:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. This should certainly go up if/when confirmed. However, it a) needs to be published in a peer-reviewed journal and b) needs some proper, detailed confirmation. Whether or not we should wait for the prize to actually be awarded is something we can discuss at the time. Modest Geniustalk 12:43, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for award This is obvioulsy only an ITN item if the prize is actually awarded. MickMacNee (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with MickMacNee, the story is the award, which will happen after it's confirmed. ~DCLet's Vent 13:03, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support upon confirmation of proof and award. This is one of the great unsolved problems of the Millenium, and also I blame the oneness theory for causing so many unsolved problems to be solved. :P ~AH1(TCU) 15:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support upon confirmation of proof and award. I wouldn't count on our Pakistan run getting over. ;-) they seem to have a penchant for staying 'In the News'. Though I hope we see at least a temporary lull in militancy due to to many suicide vests being lost in the floods--Wikireader41 (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
dont think this item needs any support. This is an obvious ITNR whenever it takes place. after all there are only 6 times it can happen. And i highly doubt its anytime soon. even doubtful for this one actually. -- Ashish-g55 02:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong support WHEN the award is given (is this award listed on the ITN-recurring list? if not it should be). Nice to have some difference on ITN and also to reward those working on the technical wikipedia projects for their work.Lihaas (talk) 02:50, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article on the bio has been nominated for deletion. ~AH1(TCU) 13:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious strong oppose with what I see so far: An unknown chap who pushes a paper that has been refuted by leading mathematicians. I am puzzled as I would have thought there should only be support if the proof is legitimate - as opposed to a mere claimed proof - and the prized awarded, which has not and probably will not happen any time soon. 76.65.21.129 (talk) 16:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC) -Thom[reply]
Autism detection
BBC I think it is a widespread-enough condition to be worth mentioning. 18.111.55.86 (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle, since this is just as significant as the alzheimers item we have at present. Is there an updated article anywhere? Modest Geniustalk 12:48, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An American museum launches an appeal designed to restore 5 dresses that actress Vivien Leigh wore in the film Gone with the Wind (1939) ahead of 2014's 75th anniversary. (BBC)
The internet parody video "Newport State of Mind", which had received hundreds of thousands of hits, is taken off YouTube due to a "copyright claim" by EMI Publishing. (BBC)
The Bank of England's governor Mervyn King admits the economy will not grow very much and inflation will stay higher for longer in the UK, describing as a "choppy recovery" being ahead over the next two years. (BBC)
Fidel Castro agrees with former U.S. intelligence agents who say Israel is planning for a sudden attack on Iran, but states that Israel won't start the war as it would be outnumbered. (Xinhua)
Former Kyrgyz prime minister Igor Chudinov is arrested and charged with abuse of power during his 2007-2009 reign. (Xinhua)
The Women's Commission of West Bengal says there will be an inquiry into the case of a tribal woman who is reported to have been paraded naked around several villages and filmed in this act via a mobile phone. (BBC)
It's close to sliding off and yet there are several events added to the portal each day about this situation... food prices have quadrupled... the UN has just launched an appeal for lots more money... there must be something to use if there is agreement. The UN says its worse than the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami, the 2005 Kashmir earthquake and the 2010 Haiti earthquake put together - an event on this scale really doesn't come along that often. --candle•wicke 04:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
this article has been bumped to the top twice already. no doubt this is a significant ongoing crisis but I don't think it is so important that it deserves a 3rd bump. cant remember the last time we did that. so Oppose ( BTW I was the original nominator of this article)--Wikireader41 (talk) 04:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The UN thing is... wow. I'd probably wearily support, but I do share the concern of a third bump. Seems a large enough scale to warrant it. f o x 09:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support after reading this ghastly article - 14 million people affected, 6 million need "humanitarian assistance", 6,000 villages "wiped off the map"... and they are a nuclear power that is now seriously destablized. The UN hook is the way to reframe it. Deserves the precedent-breaking third bump for sheer magnitude. Jusdafax 09:49, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Update: Here's another development in that the president of Pakistan is finally going to the flood zone after taking a lot of flak for not going sooner. Has that before and after space photo in the article already been used on the Main page? Jusdafax 10:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it has. I'm also thinking that the President thing will be more concise a blurb than "worse than Haiti..." if we do choose to have a new one. f o x 10:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's been up there long enough, and already bumped up twice. ~DCLet's Vent 12:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - now 2000+ fatalities, many many without place to live, whole cities were flooded. Kubek15write/sign 12:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It should never have been bumped in the first place simply for being 'ongoing', and this is why. MickMacNee (talk) 13:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support adding the new information, oppose the bump-up. The new information obviously needs to be updated but we still have multiple global catastrophies at the moment and currently it looks like no one catastrophe deserves more attention on ITN than any other. ~AH1(TCU) 15:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the UN is saying it is a bigger catastrophe than 3 recent major catastrophes put together. How can that compare to the other current global disasters (the floods I presume you mean, and the fires in Russia, and so on)? All bad but none of them seem to be on this scale. And since these disasters are so rare there is no reason to believe that every other disaster should be bumped as well unless it is as bad as this (unlikely in most cases). --candle•wicke 05:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well said, bravo! The new developments make this an article of continuing interest. Jusdafax 05:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The President of Pakistan has now cancelled Independence Day celebrations this Saturday. That might be another useful angle. --candle•wicke 18:53, 13 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]
The Pakistan floods are affecting more people than three past disasters combined, but I would disagree that it is more significant than the other two stories right now. The maximum death toll from the Pakistan floods may be 3,000, while 1,600 are confirmed and 14 million people are affected. However, the total death toll from the Russian fires, smog and heat wave is easily 20,000, while the confirmed death toll in China from the floods exceeds 2,500, and well over 10,000 are missing, and 200 million people have been affected. I think the Pakistan floods will be the last of those three events to come to an end, so maybe it's significant in that way. However, the other two disasters are likely more significant than the Pakistan floods. ~AH1(TCU) 22:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a third trip to the top. By now, everyone has seen the headline. Courcelles 18:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless and until something majorly new happens, that would be significant enough to be posted on its own. We can't just keep bumping things simply because the situation is ongoing. Modest Geniustalk 13:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Venezuela and Colombia re-establish diplomatic relations
This is big news, as it looked like warfare might break out. Nice to have some good news on the Main Page as well. (The New York Times)(Aljazeera)Jusdafax 21:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What, no one? Let's have somebody step up and discuss this in a timely fashon, please. Jusdafax 02:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I note we posted the severing of ties two weeks ago so this should be uncontroversial. Credits will be delivered in the mail shortly.
Great, I'm encouraged. I will work on the lede in the Wiki article which needs an update to reflect the ITN item. Jusdafax 04:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake - I think the article is just about there but I'll hold fire this time. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:08, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An IP did a brief fix, I'll ramp it up now. Jusdafax 04:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done I kept getting edit conflicts, but added my contributions under yours. I think it fits pretty well, so thanks "200". Mkativerata, what do you make of it? Jusdafax 05:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The bare urls should be converted to citenews refs - sorry I'd do it myself but I'm at work.--Mkativerata (talk) 05:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, will do. Jusdafax 05:43, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly done. "200" is kind enough to work on his refs, and my NYT ones are done. Should be ready for prime time any sec. Jusdafax 06:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm satisfied. Re-posting. Courcelles 06:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My very first! Thanks Courcelles... I'd like to take the time to thank 200.127.175.240 who worked very hard to help improve the article and endured my grumpy posts on his talk page, Candlewicke who had a crucial first support and the article pointer, Wikireader41 who backup supported, and Mkativerata who sheparded the process along. I will be delighted to continue to participate here, as it is rewarding work. Thanks yet again, Jusdafax 07:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Belated support. f o x 09:38, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Need to also mention an ITN posting on the talk page of the article, doesnt mention its posting for 12 August.
Good catch, uh whoever posted that, as the talk page is templated for the July ITN item, not the August. Anyone know how to fix that? Jusdafax 15:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Copy and paste the template.~DCLet's Vent 15:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Facepalm) Thanks! Jusdafax 16:11, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kashmir killings
This is very tragic. There have been violent protests over recent weeks, many innocent civilians mostly children have been massacred by Indian troops. I nominate this event for consideration. Cowboyintexas 22:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Link, source, article... anything? You've got to give us something to go on. Courcelles 02:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is not yet an article for this event. It was nominated 6 days ago but did not receive enough input for posting. The event appears ongoing. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 03:18, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there has been an uptick in violence in Kashmir with Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence(ISI) once again boosting the militants in Kashmir.[43], [44], [45]. This story could have been combined with the wikileaks Afghan_War_Diary#Pakistan story we had in ITN about continued ISI meddling in neighboring areas that we carried a little while ago. If someone can come up with an NPOV update and a neutral blurb we should consider this.--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. What is the death toll? The 2010 Leh floods in Kashmir killed 165 people recently but has not been posted. ~AH1(TCU) 15:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
its not really an uprising as such as that in Bangkok and Kyrgzstan -- if it does get more widespread and sources say its a large scale uprising then an article can be made.Lihaas (talk) 21:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
The United States and Vietnam celebrate the 15th anniversary of diplomatic relations by conducting what the United States describes as a "series of naval engagement activities" in the South China Sea, risking a disagreement with China. (BBC)(China Daily)
The United States defends its decision to appoint as Venezuelan ambassador Larry Palmer, who has expressed negative views of the country in the past, including insinuating that it has ties with Colombian rebels. (Aljazeera)
Saudi Arabia permits the use of BlackBerry devices for now, having previously considering banning them as they were unable to intercept and decrypt communications on that platform. (BBC)
Guatemala issues arrest warrants for 18 former senior officials and policemen who killed 7 prisoners in 2006. (BBC)
Google, Verizon net neutrality proposal criticised
The proposal is under fire from net neutrality groups and the FCC chairman, who see the proposal as having loopholes that will create an uneven playing field for internet users. Coverage from the New York Times, Reuters, Financial Times and numerous other international news outlets. Of interest to anyone using the internet. New York TimesJusdafax 20:15, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment You mean internet in the United States? —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 22:09, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Worldwide, I believe; since much content originates or passes through the U.S. the proposed policy changes would have widespread impact. Jusdafax 22:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's hard to say why this deserves main page exposure when nothing has actually happened that affects anybody yet. It's basically a story about comments on a new net neutrality proposal. MickMacNee (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have to disagree there. The core news is that Google and Verizon, two powerhouse outfits, have teamed up with a proposal they intend to implement. Google had previously been in favor of Net neutrality and their switch in many people's view is a very big deal. Don't downplay the "comments" against this new policy when they include Julius Genachowski, the FCC Chairman. The fact that the story is being reported in the press around the world makes a strong point also; I was just reading an article on this written in India. Jusdafax 23:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
its a proposal only. even if implemented it wouldnt effect the net neutrality beyond US. I would still support the implementation of something like that but just proposal is sort of useless since noone has power to implement it yet. -- Ashish-g55 23:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that the "proposal" is a bit like the boiling frog - it can just be phased in and become defacto policy. As for the power to implement, the U.S. courts recently ruled the the FCC has no right to regulate this type of thing, meaning a power vaccum exists. Interesting also is the coincidence that former U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens died today. His comment about the internet being just a series of tubes when it came to network neutrality was a classic demonstration of how some politicians are clueless regarding the issue. Jusdafax 23:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This happened couple days back but just noticed it now... A 260 sq km. part of Greenland ice sheet broke off and is heading towards canada. Star"It is believed to be the biggest such event in the Arctic in nearly 50 years."... BBC "There was enough fresh water locked up in the ice island to keep all US public tap water flowing for 120 days," -- Ashish-g55 19:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if there is an article on Wikipedia. We've put up a couple stories of icesheets breaking off from Antarctica. --PlasmaTwa2 19:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Is this ice sheet threatening anyone? It's a much smaller event than the 2002 Larsen A event in the Antarctis where 3,250 km² broke off. __meco (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Risk of soapboxing. --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wait what... how is this soapboxing? its the biggest ice chunk separated in arctic in about 50 years. Thats a fact and not some global warming agenda pushing. and for meco's concern. Antarctic ice is much different than Arctic (lot less of it to begin with) hence a chunk this large is very unusual. -- Ashish-g55 21:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - but only because the news is now stale, in that it is days old. If there are new developments in this story that are of great notability I'd be interested. Jusdafax 21:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. I could have nominated this a few days ago, but did not. However, I'll note that the chunk that broke off the Petermann Glacier is a fraction of the size of the Mertz Glacier calving, which was nominated a while back but was quietly ignored and never posted. A major point of notability would be that this glacier effectively connects Greenland to Ellesmere Island, and could speed up ice melt in the high Arctic. The chunk that broke off was technically not part of the Greenland Ice Sheet, but part of the sea ice that extends from it. However, this is still a large chunk of ice for the Arctic, even though 90% of the ice shelves surrounding Ellesmere have collapsed in recent years. Also, I strongly disagree with the assertion that this nomination could be soapboxing. Climate science is one of the quickest-changing scientific fields, and we should post new developments on ITN just as we would post a major story from paleontology or medical research. Just because we have a probation out on climate change topics currently does not mean that it is a gag order. If anything, we should be increasing our posting of climate stories, not decreasing them. Putting a climate change-related story on the Main Page does not fall under any definition of soapboxing AFAIK. ~AH1(TCU) 23:31, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no real notability outside of MMA. Kovalchuck's deal with the Devils being denied is more notable and we wouldn't put that up. --PlasmaTwa2 19:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Not notable enough and too many major global disasters to cover such stories. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. This doesn't even come close to meeting our importance requirements. Modest Geniustalk 20:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A few observations. What I was going with here was a billion dollar company being taken to court by a rival, which I would have thought was important, even outside of MMA interests. However, I accept the opposes. Another point, I've no idea how Kovalchuck is. Finally, just writing "nope" rather than "oppose" followed by a reason just makes you come across badly. I'd re-evaluate your approach in future. Paralympiakos(talk) 20:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are hundreds - if not thousands - of lawsuits filed against American corporations every single day. A corporation being sued in and of itself is not a notable occurrence. --Smashvilletalk 22:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely Not Disregarding the unnotability of virtually any lawsuit... Who is Jonathan Brookins? --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No chance. Seriously. If it doesn't have any significance in the country it takes place in...it has no significance on ITN. Looking at his article, it doesn't even appear to have any significance within UFC. I'll repeat the above question - Who the hell is Jonathan Brookins? --Smashvilletalk 21:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I would usually support something like this but a Former US senator being involved in a plane crash is not more deserving for a mention on the front page than some of the major disasters or incidents that have/are taking place around the world at present. I dont want to see certain ones knocked off the page. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it wasnt for some of the ongoing disasters like in Russia, China and Pakistan, id support. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support If he was killed. He was particularly newsworthy as recently as 2008 when he lost his Senate seat after having been convicted of corruption...Modernist (talk) 17:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Once again we're coming up against the issue of something being newsworthy or important inside the US, but not necessarily outside the US, just as with Kagan last week. I mean would people be supporting if it were John Prescott or Chaudhary Devi Lal who was on the plane? If the answer is no, then why is this any more notable? --Daviessimo (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not to beat a dead horse, but there are more people in the US. Instead of focusing on "how many countries care about this" why not focus on "how many readers care" (Plus O'Keefe is the head of European firm EADS's North American subsidiary) ~DCLet's Vent 17:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Well, would you support if Louis Gallois had been on the plane? The point I'm trying to illustrate, is that it is the nationality of these people that is the driving force behind these nominations and not the severity of the event itself. I mean a similar scale event would be a plane crash with Prescott and Gallois. How many American users would care about that and more importantly how many would support its inclusion on the main page? When you consider that, you can understand why people claim there is an American bias when these sort of items do make it onto the main page --Daviessimo (talk) 17:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
opposeonly because the senator was not in office anymore. We can not post current and X senator deaths. Since this was unexpected death i would have supported if he was still in office similar to Y. S. Rajasekhara Reddy's death. -- Ashish-g55 17:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can't imagine that this item will have major importance in the US itself. He is a former senator; the fact he was unlucky doesn't really seem like an item we should put on itn. --PlasmaTwa2 17:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a side note, O'Keefe's importance shouldn't be overlooked (The BBC is focusing more on him than Stevens). Also, we don't know who the other passengers were, and that could up the notability of the incident. ~DCLet's Vent 17:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - two Wikinotable people involved, both in fairly high public office in the United States. Mjroots (talk) 18:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose He's not even confirmed dead. If both O'Keefe and Stevens were confirmed deceased, it might make a bigger splash. —fetch·comms 18:17, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't believe this would meet the criteria if there was international significance somehow. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's fallacious. Virtually none of the stories in ITN ever have any "international significance". Did the landslide in China affect other countries? Did the flooding in Pakistan affect other countries? Did the wildfires in Russia affect other countries? Does Kenya's new constitution affect other countries? --Smashvilletalk 19:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, sources say Stevens died, but O'Keefe survived. Also, in regards to int'l significance, see the links from Canada above (or does Canada not count since it's not European?) ~DCLet's Vent 19:15, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course Canada counts. "International" means "outside the country where the event occurred". Alaska is not part of Canada, therefore coverage in "international". Mjroots (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The notability of this story in Canada is small at best. CTV is the only news service that has it as the top story. It is not the top story on Global, The Globe and Mail, or CBC. --PlasmaTwa2 19:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Former Senator killed in plane crash (assuming the worst)? Not ITN worthy in my view. If Kagan was controversial, this would be courageous.--Mkativerata (talk) 19:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - minor plane crash, no significant repercussions (as, for example, there was in the Kazynski (sp?) crash). Location and nationality are entirely moot. Modest Geniustalk 19:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose If Stevens were still in office, I'd be more inclined to support, but not given the circumstances. --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, because Stevens doesn't (didn't?) really matter anymore, doesn't hold a position of power, so crash won't make a difference to anything. C628 (talk) 20:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and request others to reconsider Stevens was not merely a former senator. In addition to his having been President pro tempore, he was an important figure in founding the state of Alaska, a king of pork (the appropriations kind), and notable for his overturned corruption conviction and the "series of tubes" comments that still find their way around the internet. I'm not sure he was on the same level as Robert Byrd, whose death did make ITN, but I'm not sure he wasn't, either. -Rrius (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose even byrd was controversial as he has no global scope/notability but got on becasue he was longest serving. Theres nothing even pan-America (pan-US American even) about his notability. as if sarah pahlin would get on ITN for dying?(Lihaas (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
That was not the only reason Byrd made it, and it wasn't terribly controversial. Some people initially opposed it, but their opposition didn't amount to much. This story had dodgy facts long enough that the slow takeup internationally may mean something or not. -Rrius (talk) 21:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - notable people on board--DAI (Δ) 22:13, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: if O'Keefe died too, I'd consider supporting this; however, there's nothing of international importance here, unlike Ted Kennedy or (arguably) Byrd. We've had deaths of more notable politicians opposed before; we need consistency. Sceptre(talk) 22:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The plane crash itself is of limited notability due to the fact that the death toll is only five, but Ted Stevens is himself notable for being the longest-serving Republican Senator among other things, and his death was also notable. ~AH1(TCU) 23:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...for one definition of the term. Thurmond served longer in the Senate than Stevens, but Stevens served longer as a Republican than Thurmond. Sceptre(talk) 02:51, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - with all due respect to Ted Stevens and his family and the others who died, he was no longer a serving senator and that makes all the difference here. The analogy with other former political figures from other countries (who would get almost universal opposition here) is accurate. I don't fully agree with the current criteria (I think having a well-written and updated article is the most important factor), but since we have the criteria we should stick with them and, as Sceptre says, be consistent. Carcharoth (talk) 02:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The more I read about this, the less like an an 'election' it seems. Newspaper closures, opposition figures disqualified from running, or found decapitated... Jusdafax 15:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now official results will not be available probably till next week (and the results section is wishy-washy now). The ITN alternative is to put it up when the prez takes office if we miss the election day.(Lihaas (talk) 17:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose Agree with the above comment by Lihaas, leave off for now. Add it after the official result is announced or when his second term officially starts. Not notable enough for the main page at present when there is 3 major disasters needing to be listed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the official results are confirmed. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 18:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for official results, support once they come out and the article is updated - it certainly needs some work. Contrary to what Lihaas suggested above, we should certainly post the results and not the assumption of office (see WP:ITNR). Modest Geniustalk 19:42, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know what ITN rules say, but in the past there have been occasions where the elections was posted later because it was missed. Just then shooting out some options.(Lihaas (talk) 17:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Modest Genius: Which parts of the article do you feel need work? I've spent a bit of time tidying it up over the past couple of days, to try to make sure it is ITN-worthy when the results come out. Obviously the election/results will need a thorough write once we have the information. But is there anything else you feel necessary in the rest of the article? Unfortunately I'm somewhat pushed for time at the moment but will do what I can... Muraho (talk) 09:54, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for official results --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support once official results are known. ~AH1(TCU) 23:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support once official results are known - as far as I know, the convention is that national leadership election results are always posted on ITN. Muraho (talk) 09:55, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, CNN and Reuters say official results show Kagame wins with 93% of the vote. C628 (talk) 13:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Deaths in Moscow due to Smoke double to 700 people a day. (AP via Google news)
Well, support. 700 people a day????; that's pretty notable even considering the deaths due to flooding... I can put this up Ca. 13:00 if no one else has. Thoughts? Cwill151 (talk) 05:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support but it should either be merged with or replace the forest fires blurb, since the fires are causing the smog. ~DCLet's Vent 06:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Startling. Agree with merge or replace, leaning merge. Jusdafax 08:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have misunderstood the story. The deaths have double from the same time last year to 700 people a day. People are always dying in Moscow, as they are in every other area with a significant population. The smog, heat wave and likely other factors have increased the mortality rate or the number of people dying. Still a significant story perhaps but quoting the 700 figure in that way is misleading. If you want to quote any figure it should be 350 people a day although I'd argue that's way too simple an analysis anyway Nil Einne (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
that still an excess mortality of 350 a day. a significant number by any standard. support.--Wikireader41 (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. (edit conflict)The death toll from the Russian heat wave and smog has likely exceeded 15,000, higher than in any other weather-related disaster so far this year. It's comparable to the 2003 European heat wave. A suggested merge with the existing blurb: "Wildfires in WesternRussia (satellite image pictured) kill at least 53 people and destroy thousands of homes, while smog and air pollution produced by the fires combined with an ongoing heat wave cause death rates in Moscow to double to 700 people per day." How's that? The heat wave link is still tentative, because the article is still a mess (which is why I have to clean it up soon [stop procrastinating!]). Some more images we could use, if we prefer something other than the current image, include smoke in Moscow, smog at Moscow's airport, or the upper troposphere limit to the smoke as seen from a plane. Russian drowning deaths have also hit close to 2,500 so far. ~AH1(TCU) 14:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, though the blurb suggestion above is probably a bit too long. Modest Geniustalk 19:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Add to fire blurb Just the heat deaths are a much bigger disaster than the fires alone. --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the above suggestion is too long, could always remove the "thousands of homes" bit, its less notable than the deaths. But this item certainly needs to be updated to include the smog situation. BritishWatcher (talk) 22:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WSJ. Considering how many people have died, and how much fuss was about it this should go on the ITN template. 18.111.55.86 (talk) 19:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Considering how many people died?" Considering how many people died I oppose. 30x-40x more people died from the seasonal flu last year. --Smashvilletalk 19:33, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support The pandemic was a big deal, it being declared over seems rather notable. Although as this is a positive news story im sure the media will ignore it, considering the non stop coverage they gave it in the early days, worrying people around the world. :\ BritishWatcher (talk) 20:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. End of an internationally notable health scare, which despite the comparison to normal flu, still killed 14,000 people worldwide. Given the death tolls for any old disaster that garner automatic ITN-ness these days, I think that qualifies a hundred fold. And as we had to post the ins and outs of the BP oil spill for every notable announcement about it, this announcement surely qualifies on that basis too. The lede could do with trimming though. MickMacNee (talk) 22:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, something being over is a non-event. Worse, it being over was decided by a committee using statistical methods which are dull as dishwater. Abductive (reasoning) 22:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support considering this is an official announcement, even though it wasn't really much of a pandemic. ~AH1(TCU) 23:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong oppose really not-notable, when it was notable it was the pandemic per Abductive. At any rate how is it "officially" over just when WHO says it? If they are the reputed authority to decree such things then it must have ended some time ago and then saw no cases coming, if they're not (and i think they are not) then theres not way for them to know every case and if its contagious and can recur.(Lihaas (talk) 01:51, 11 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Good point. The story here isn't the pandemic. It's a press release. --Smashvilletalk 03:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's why the title is "H1N1 pandemic is officially over". And as for the 'officialness' of the statement, the clue is in the title, the World Health Organization. You can debate all you want whether the actual end is an 'event' or not, but claiming it is not 'officialy over' is frankly absurd. Seriously, if this doesn't go up as an 'event', then I want no more crap like the BP daily updates ever. And you can forget about posting any little crap about '10 dead in such and such' if this isn't an ITN event. It is absurd frankly. MickMacNee (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. wikipedia has made it's job enough of contributing to the scare--DAI (Δ) 08:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What the hell is this even supposed to mean? MickMacNee (talk) 16:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is "the scare is over" a scare? 18.111.55.86 (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If it was noteworthy when it was decreed, we should also post that it has been recalled, regardless of how noteworthy the recall is by itself. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢ 20:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted I understand this hasn't received rousing support, but with 26 hours since the last update, a 50/50 nomination is acceptable. -- tariqabjotu 09:29, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Japan marks the 65th anniversary of the 1945 atomic bombing of Nagasaki. The United States, which perpetrated the attack, upsets survivors by not sending an ambassador due to "scheduling reasons" this time, though France and the UK send representatives for the first time. (China Daily)(Yomiuri Shimbun)(BBC)
Mayor of Nagasaki Tomihisa Taue calls for the international elimination of nuclear weapons before representatives of a record 32 countries. (Japan Times)
The Turkish government promotes two new generals. (BBC)
Israeli police examine office computers and issue a warrant to Channel 2 calling on it to surrender a military document they want. (The Jerusalem Post)
A man from Israel is released after being detained as a suspected spy in Libya in return for the safe delivery to Gaza of 20 prefabricated houses, whose ship was forced to divert to Egypt in July. (BBC)(The Sydney Morning Herald)
An anonymous transsexual is involved in a landmark case in Hong Kong to win the right to marry her boyfriend. (BBC)
More than 200 Mexican police suspend and hold their own commander at gunpoint in a Ciudad Juárez hotel over allegations of drugs-related corruption. (BBC)
The article says most of the counting will end today. While Solomon Islands has a population of 523k, Oceania only has three countries with significant enough population (AUS, NZ, PNG) if we'd set a population floor for elections there has to be consideration at least for this part of the world. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 04:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when counted. --candle•wicke 05:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support with caveat the article needs a clean up instead of just results, some background, election/candidates, etc. But it is per ITN rule for elections, but either when results are confirmed OR new leaders is sworn it (we've done this either way before)(Lihaas (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose only about 100k more people than Suriname, which was rejected earlier this month. Not terribly significant to most readers. ~DCLet's Vent 19:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well it shouldnt have been rejected, the rules on ITN explicitly say nation-state general elections should be lsited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lihaas (talk • contribs)
25 hours since a news item...(Lihaas (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article still needs prose. Courcelles 03:00, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to ITNR, consensus can change. ~DCLet's Vent 03:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with this and Support once improved. Suriname should NOT have been rejected for being "too small". --Kitch(Talk : Contrib) 20:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support since did we begin ignoring general elections because the country is 'too small'? And what's the cut off point? 1 million? 2 million? It's a ridiculous policy particularly if we put up stuff like "The Sun undergoes a series of four large coronal mass ejections, resulting in strong aurorae". P.S. As always, my comment is solely on whether the item should go up if the article is up to scratch, it goes without saying it shouldn't if the article isn't Nil Einne (talk) 12:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the argument that a country is not notable due to a small population is an even worse one than the US-bias. --PlasmaTwa2 17:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, the idea that a countries size is relevant to posting on ITN came from HJ Mitchell, a well-respected British admin (and not some pompous American asshole) See the archived discussion. ~DCLet's Vent 17:56, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Partial Support - i would support this being added, provided it appears below the 3 major disasters getting international headlines (Pakistan, Russia and China). And once the election results are fully confirmed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:17, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support in principle, but the article is nowhere near sufficient to go up. Modest Geniustalk 19:46, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I've added 1,300 characters worth of overview, updates and a couple refs. This nation is an emerging democracy, and I found the topic of interest. Jusdafax 09:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me! Jusdafax 05:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Now the wait for someone to come along... :-) --candle•wicke 05:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You can't be serious. Do you at least have some results to go in the blurb? -- tariqabjotu 08:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A fair point, but the vote resulted in a coalition building phase. It would seem this is a protracted and intense process, if the local papers are any indication. I've notified Courcelles to take a look at this matter. Standing by. Jusdafax 09:06, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do we at least have a source that tells up which party has the most seats? That would give us something more than "it happened" to put up. Courcelles 09:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article is the best single source I found, but you will notice it just says that parties "claimed" seats. We could add a mention of the 42 seats one coalition "claims", but I was a bit shy. Thoughts? Jusdafax 09:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we had a list of all winning candidates, we could just count parties without being in violation of WP:OR. The coalitions all appear to be jockeying at the moment- perhaps even making stuff up- but which party each candidate ran with ought to be findable. Courcelles 09:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On further thought, how about A general election takes place in the Solomon Islands that results in ongoing coalition building. It's true, short, and as close as we can get at the moment. However, I'll go back to googling and see if there is a clear and unambiguous result somewhere. Jusdafax 09:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, here is the latest info I have found. Still high degree of cloudiness, I'm afraid. Jusdafax 09:42, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
China one should have been -- certainly if BP was on there TWICE. biggest spill in china ever (akin to at least whatever Sound in Alaska if not BP) (was the BP final plug listed?)(Lihaas (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
because nobody nominated them--DAI (Δ) 08:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The spills in Egypt and China were both nominated, but did not reach a consensus quickly enough for an administrator to notice it's time to put it up. ~AH1(TCU) 14:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Minor compared to some major incidents taking place around the world at present. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least 8 people are killed and 32 others injured during a car bomb outside a restaurant in Ramadi, Iraq. (Aljazeera)
The death toll of Saturday's explosion in Basra, Iraq, rises to 43, with the number of injured people being over 100. Police say the explosion was as a result of a power generator short-circuiting but other sources claim it was due to a car bomb. (Aljazeeera)(Euronews)(BBC)
United States Representative Ron Klein calls for an investigation into American military aid to Lebanon to determine whether the Lebanese soldiers involved used American-supplied military equipment or received American-funded training. (The Jerusalem Post)
A bridegroom accidentally shoots dead three relations and injures eight others while celebrating with an AK-47 at his wedding in Akcagoze, Gaziantep in Turkey; the man has been detained. (BBC)(News24)
Torrential rains worsen the ongoing flood crisis across Pakistan, which has so far affected 14 million people, as rescue helicopters are forced to stay on the ground in the northwest of the country. (Aljazeera)(BBC)
Landslips wreak further destruction in Pakistan: 28 corpses retrieved so far in 2 villages. (BBC)
Food prices soar in Pakistan as the floods destroy one million acres of crops so far. (The Express Tribune)
There is a further cave-in at the mine near Copiapó, Chile where people have been working since Thursday to rescue 34 miners trapped underground; work is currently suspended in an incident that is rare in that part of the world. (BBC)
There is "significant concern" after an investigation into the UK Border Agency (UKBA) reveals abuse and racial manhandlement of asylum seekers by staff. (The Guardian)
More than 1,000 journalists march through Mexico City in protest at the repeated killings and disappearances of their colleagues throughout Mexico. (Aljazeera)
Support assuming the article is significantly improved. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support upon improvement. --candle•wicke 22:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Agreed, Should be added once improved and expanded a bit. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Number of missing is down to 1,300 apparently, instead on the 2,000 on the main page. We could also link to both the landslides and the main flood article in the blurb. ~AH1(TCU) 13:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the toll: 337 dead and "at least 1,100 missing" (official missing toll is 1,148). --Mkativerata (talk) 21:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kim Tae-ho is appointed the new Prime Minister of South Korea. This should probably be included on ITN. Scanlan (talk) 19:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem like a particularly significant position, according to our WP article. Appointed not elected, advisory role, etc. But interested to hear others' views. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well I would certainly consider being the number two man in the country to be pretty significant. Should the president be unable to 'perform' his duties then the PM steps in. Without being accused of pointlessly trying the level the playing field, it's worth noting that we do list the vice-presidential running mates in US elections... --Daviessimo (talk) 20:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A new prime minister. Of course. Without wanting to draw a negative reaction or have any disagreement, there is an associate justice from elsewhere there now so why not a prime minister if the article is sufficiently updated. --candle•wicke 22:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - on the condition the article on the new prime minister is expanded a bit, and the blurb mentions that seven ministers were replaced as part of the largest reshuffle since the president took power in 2008. This BBC news source on it seems good [47]BritishWatcher (talk) 09:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Changing to oppose, this is now a couple of days old, not newsworthy enough anymore for the frontpage. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as of with any other prime minister or president. — Cargoking talk 18:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok it seems this has consensus support but we can't be linking this stub from the main page. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not an important enough position that people outside of the ROK care. ~DCLet's Vent 19:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if it can be shown to be internationally significant. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:01, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support since the competition has been ended. There was Love Parade as well, though more people died there, but how often does a competitor in a world championship die and the world championship end as a result? --candle•wicke 22:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, support to add some humor to the main page. Plus, how often do you hear of someone dying in a sauna competition. One of those items that's noteworthy just for it's unique interestingness.Ks0stm(T•C•G) 04:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. This is a very minor event. The death is regrettable, but it is not ITN worthy. We should not post this up as a "fun item"; someone died.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give you that one...that was one of my less well considered comments...my apologies, and thank you for bringing me back to Earth. Ks0stm(T•C•G) 04:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unfortunate, but just one death. The Love Parade had 21, so I'm not sure why that comparison was made. ~DCLet's Vent 04:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not notable and the only reason it got attention was because it was a "wacky" competition like the Wife-carrying or bog soccer etc, so in reality it isn't any more notable than a silly/risky guy killing himself in a stunt race/demo or something YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is by no chance guaranteed, but if Mickelson finishes in the top four at the 2010 WGC-Bridgestone Invitational, he'll overtake Tiger Woods and become the #1 ranked golfer in the Official World Golf Rankings. Normally I'd say this isn't too important, but Woods has been #1 for a record 269 consecutive weeks. ~DCLet's Vent 16:05, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if it occurs due to the time it has taken. --candle•wicke 16:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if it happens, but only if the blurb is worded so that the story is Woods' record. Modest Geniustalk 16:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose just because we have an ITN/R golf story next weekend. (The PGA Championship). Courcelles 16:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if only because it's different, and Christ knows we need some good news this month... f o x 17:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I can't think of how this could be presented as a Main Page item other than in effect saying 'look at how crap Tiger woods has become since you know what nudge nudge wink wink'. It's a BLP nightmare, and having a new number one in any sport, no matter how long the incumbent had held the spot, would never make it to ITN. Personally, I think Usain Bolt being beaten at the 100m for the first time in two years was more significant than this, if it happens, and I never would have nominated that for ITN. MickMacNee (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"if it happens" - it did. Tyson Gay beat him a few days ago. f o x 17:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Garbled grammer. I knew that had happened, I was referring to if Tiger loses top spot. MickMacNee (talk) 19:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
actually federer losing his #1 spot to nadal after like 5 years was probably more notable. but as said above i would support if blurb is about woods not phil. but as said below its moot point. -- Ashish-g55 00:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why would that be more notable? ~DCLet's Vent 19:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because R-Fed is a Swiss?
because there were rarely any breaks in middle. He was in finals/semi-finals for all grand slams. The rating in golf doesnt necessarily need to be maintained. -- Ashish-g55 16:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moot Phil is playing simply awful. Next to no chance of him becoming #1 this week now. Courcelles 19:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not enough news coverage of it to justify inclusion. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:29, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FYI he shot an 8 over, and didn't finish in the top 4, so he didn't overtake Tiger. ~DCLet's Vent 14:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Historian Tony Judt is dead. Some links and helpful quotes:
TIME - "a historian of the very first order, a public intellectual of an old-fashioned kind and — in more ways than one — a very brave man".
The Guardian - "Considered by many to be a giant in the intellectual world". "His finest work was widely thought to be Postwar: A History of Europe since 1945, published in 2005 [...] enormous critical success [...] described by the Yale historian Timothy Snyder as 'the best book on its subject that will ever be written by anyone'."
The New York Times - "the author of Postwar, a monumental history of Europe after World War II, and a public intellectual".
The Daily Telegraph - "the foremost chronicler of post-war Europe" [...] "Hundreds of years from now, people will turn for pleasure to Tony Judt's histories of France and Europe – much as, today, we still read Macaulay's History of England".
Los Angeles Times - "Critics considered [Postwar] a masterful account of Europe's recovery from the wreckage of World War II. The New York Times Book Review named it one of the 10 best books of 2005, and last year the Toronto Star called it the best historical book of the decade". + "Widely regarded as one of the great political writers of modern times, British-born Judt — pronounced "Jutt" — was one of the West's foremost and most outspoken public intellectuals".
The person is notable but his death is not. Single sentence updates (related to his death) are never enough for ITN. Not sure if there's anything more (related to his death) worth adding, as this is a case of an old person dying of natural causes. --PFHLai (talk) 09:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a problem. I will try to add something else. --candle•wicke 13:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the expansion, but the new materials do not describe what happened at his death, or what impacts his death has on current events. As his illness was already known, death was expected. This appears to be an uneventful death of a famous person. I might be more supportive if there were a political vacuum produced, a controversy on a succession plan, lawsuits for a huge inheritance, a high profile manhunt for the killer, a big funeral disrupting the busy schedules of high profile international figures in attendance, or some indication that an epidemic is around the corner, or even reports on the discovery of skeletons previously hidden in his closet..... blah, blah, blah,... I can't find anything to get around the death criteria. --PFHLai (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"2.The deceased was a very important figure in their field of expertise, and was recognised as such."
As a historian, writer, public intellectual, etc. what more could he do? --candle•wicke 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. He is recognised as being the leader in quite a narrow field - I think 'history of post-war Europe' is far too small a scope to be considered the 'field of expertise' for the purposes of the DC. Plus the article has real undue-weight issues, which is sadly to be expected whenever there is an Israel connection. MickMacNee (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As PFHLai says, the man was notable, but his death was not. In my view, we really need to keep that distinction in mind when considering whether to post deaths. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are the deaths of people like 91-year-old J. D. Salinger (who just died in the same way as many, of natural causes) notable though? Posted January 2010. Just wondering where the line is. :-) --candle•wicke 23:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Many notable people die, the vast majority can not be mentioned on ITN. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. I agree with that. Notable people die every day (all notable people presumably die, just like those who are not), and most notable people won't be mentioned, but what does that have to do with this notable person above any other? I mean what is your reason for opposing this one? :-) --candle•wicke 23:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hungarian actress Zsa Zsa Gabor, hospitalised after falling in the United States last month, is not released from hospital as had been initially expected due to a negative reaction to her morphine. (BBC)
An oil spill stretching at least two miles long occurs in the Arabian Sea offshore Mumbai, India, after a vessel from Panama collides with another vessel from St. Kitts. The Panamanian ship was carrying 2,662 tons of oil, 283 tons of diesel and 88,040 liters of lube oil when it became grounded and started to leak. (CNN)(Sify)
Support: Jesus... I know 10 doesn't sound like a lot, but the blatant murder of civilian medical workers is... well, Inhuman Cwill151 (talk) 19:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support although we'll need to give the article a bit of time to expand. I agree with Cwill151. This execution is quite significant and it is getting front page attention. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:57, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support very notable, should be added once the article is ready. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:10, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Well we're 4 hours overdue now, I'm just wondering why we haven't posted this yet? The article looks immaculate and is well referenced considering the actual amount of information released, what's the holdup? If there are no objections I think I'll add this to the feedback template to get some more involvement. Cwill151 (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb = "10 people, including 2 Afghan civilians and 8 international aid workers, are massacred in Badakhshan Province, Afghanistan."
I'll admit that "massacred" might seem POV, though it is the title of the article. Thoughts? Cwill151 (talk) 03:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
looks like all the admins took the weekend off. I hope we dont have to wait for Mkativeratas RfA to close to get this up ;-)--Wikireader41 (talk) 04:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This admin wishes he had taken the weekend off. Article looks sufficient, and the timer is red. Posting. Courcelles 04:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Germany offers compensation of €3,800 to each family of 91 of the 142 people it killed and 11 it injured in an air strike near Kunduz, an incident which provoked outrage and led to political and military resignations. The Bundeswehr does not admit guilt and families say they may sue. (BBC)(Der Spiegel)
An international aid ship, the Saint Mariam, bearing only female passengers from all backgrounds, including singer May Hariri and several Americans, is to leave Tripoli bound for Gaza after overcoming an Israeli diplomatic mission designed to prevent it from setting sail. (The Guardian)
Smoke from Russian wildfires covers famous landmarks and delays more than 140 flights at Moscow airports while official figures indicate that 14,340 people died in Moscow during July 2010; 4,824 more than the same month last year. (Sky News)(Bloomberg)(The Guardian)
After meeting Pakistani President Zardari at Chequers UK Prime Minister Cameron speaks of an "unbreakable" friendship between Britain and Pakistan in his attempts to recover from remarks he made about Pakistan's alleged promotion of terrorism. (BBC)
Zardari reiterates his desire to combat terrorism and says he has secured a deal with Britain to lobby the European Union for funds for a "Marshall Plan" to rebuild Pakistan and Afghanistan. (The Guardian)(BBC)
Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani, sentenced to death in Iran, speaks out, saying Iran is "desperately trying to distract attention and confuse the media so that they can kill me in secret". (The Guardian)
Police near Colombo arrest a suspected fraudster for whom they had previously appealed to Interpol; it is unknown if he denies the charges brought against him. (BBC)
If some woman's appointment to some supreme court is notable enough, surely these might just be? Night w (talk) 23:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is not an election, this is a change the heads of state of two countries. ~AH1(TCU) 23:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We already posted the results of their elections into office on June 30 and July 5, respectively. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 23:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Arsonal. In these cases ITN should post substance (the election) rather than formalities (the swearing in). --Mkativerata (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per both of the above. We've already posted their respective elections. Barring exceptional developments, we shouldn't post the formalities of the swearing in as well. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
China floods update
The death toll from the floods has exceeded 1,000, while the number of dead or missing stands at ~1,700. In addition, 140 million people have been affected (by comparison the floods in Pakistan affect 12 million) in 28 of China's 31-34 administrative divisions, and direct economic damages stand at 31 billion USD while the floods continue to push from Southern toward Northern China. I'm in favour of a single blurb on the Pakistan and China floods, and the Leh floods below could be merged into the Pakistan floods article. Here is the suggested blurb:
The worst flooding in Pakistan's history kills over 1,500 people and displaces thousands more, while ongoing flooding in China kills at least 1,072 people and leaves 619 missing, destroys 1.1 million homes and forces the evacuation of more than ten million people.
How's that? Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 23:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Both flooding events are basically monsoon-related, while the (in some areas unprecedented) flooding in China is the result of a 15% increase in rainfall over the Yangtze basin region. I hear there's something against posting two flood stories on the ITN page at once, but since the China flooding death toll just reached 1,000 two days ago, this is significant at a time when the Pakistan floods are still ongoing. Many flooding events, especially ones related to monsoons seem to be going haywire in recent months, so this is somewhat related, and flooding in Kashmir vs. flooding in Xinjiang is not separated by as much as flooding in Yunnan vs. flooding in North Korea, both mentioned in the Chinese floods article. I believe we also mentioned the cold winter and snowfall last year across Eurasia in an all-encompassing article, possibly Winter of 2009-2010 in Europe or even a more global article. Currently, we have 2010 Northern Hemisphere summer heat wave to account for the wildfires in Russia and Global storm activity of 2010 to account for the flooding worldwide and the snowstorms last winter, but both articles need to be significantly improved and cleaned up before either of them are good enough to be incorporated in any ITN blurbs. Also, I will need to add more items to 2010, but I'll still need to talk to another admin about that. I'll note, however, that both the floods in Pakistan and the floods in China are of near-global significance (they pass the three-continent rule) based on the references that they have. ~AH1(TCU) 23:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I'm still working on it, but we do have Category:2010 floods, although there is very little connection between most of those floods. ~AH1(TCU) 00:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, both of the flooding events are the result of an unusually active monsoon, which is likely at least in part due to the La Nina in the east Pacific. By incorporating both items into one blurb, we can save space on the main page and have more room for non-flood news blurbs. ~AH1(TCU) 00:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Could we now feature all the three murderous flooding disasters in one item? __meco (talk) 06:24, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Second update. A landslide in Gansu has claimed 127 lives, injured 76 and left 2,000 missing. That alone is significant enough for ITN, as for example we posted 2010 Ugandan landslide (100+ killed) on ITN, and considering the number of dead or injured is over 2,000 while the total from the 2010 Yushu earthquake was just under 3,000. ~AH1(TCU) 15:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The latest death toll complied from sources is 1,210. ~AH1(TCU) 15:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why why why? Why was the landslide posted and not the facts and figures including the death toll about the flooding in general? But this is good enough for now I guess. ~AH1(TCU) 02:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because the landslide is clearly recent, while the article makes the flood sound like May and June's news. Courcelles 02:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are these the same floods affecting Pakistan? In which case, the new article should be redirected there and that article expanded and possibly moved to reflect that it's not just affecting Pakistan. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:34, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think so Leh is geographically distinct and in the eastern part of Kashmir close to China. this is unrelated freak flash flooding which affected a mountain plateau which usually is very dry and receives very little rain.I am expanding the article.--Wikireader41 (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One might have to check whether it's part of the same weather pattern. Monsoons rarely affect just one country, and it seems this season's monsoon is just crazy in general. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 22:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For discussion of the merit of merging, one can consider a previous joint article on flooding in South Asia: 2007 South Asian floods. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 22:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
that is true but we have not seen large scale flooding this year in India like in Pakistan. These were unprecedented flash floods which came on suddenly, affected a discrete area and are possibly done. In addition the area is high up in the mountains ( and surrounded by even higher mountains) where monsoons usually cant get to.--Wikireader41 (talk) 22:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its not the same geographical part per se as Pak is Sindh/Punjab/Swat and this is eastern Kashmir but its likely part of the the same weather system. One should merge the 2 pages (pretty short anyways) into a 2010 South Asian floods.(Lihaas (talk) 22:56, 6 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Actually the Leh floods were result of a cloudburst, which are distinct from Pakistan floods. --RedtigerxyzTalk 04:54, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. 125 dead and there is an article. --candle•wicke 04:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
COuld we add it as an addendum to the Pakistan item eg "...while at least x are killed in separate flooding in Leh, India"? --Mkativerata (talk) 18:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When Obama nominated Kagan, people said, "Wait for her to be confirmed." Well, now she's confirmed. To remind everyone: In U.S. politics, new Supreme Court justices are huge since they serve for life (Kagan might serve until 2045) and have such a big impact on the national life. The Supreme Court is responsible for the legalization of abortion and birth control, the racial desegregation of schools, Miranda rights, limits on capital punishment, the legalization of what other countries call "hate speech," the ban on school-sponsored prayer in schools and George W. Bush's victory in the 2000 presidential election, among countless other things. When Obama nominated Kagan on May 10, her article got 420,800 hits. I said we should put it in ITN then, but others disagreed, so we should put her confirmation on ITN now. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming this means she will undoubtedly take the position, then support per the previous consensus that this should be posted when it's final. Out of curiosity, how often are new members of SCOTUS appointed? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The president picks them and the Senate votes to confirm them. Some people say this is the president's most-important power other than having the finger on the nuclear button. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was more wondering how often this happens (mainly out of curiosity, it doesn't affect my opinion). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:15, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Every few years, on average. There have been four since 2005, but before then none since 1994. There have been a couple recently because a couple older liberal judges were holding out until Bush's term ended to retire. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per both of the aboves. ~DCLet's Vent 02:06, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't really get why this item is ITN-worthy. Is she the forth in line in the US government, after the President, Vice-President and Secretary of State? In that case, why we don't post items like the begging of the Union Cabinet Secretary of India? Fixman (talk!) 03:21, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your lack of knowledge in regards to the US gov undermines your point. (Sec of State follows the Speaker of the House and Pres pro tem of the Senate). ~DCLet's Vent 03:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm sorry, but like most of the world, I'm not part of your country, so for me, like most people, Elena Kagan is as relevant as Gustavo Madero. Instead of implying that the Unites States is the best country in the world because its the only democracy on it, while there are no people in the other tyrannical dictatorships, please explain me what is the ITN-worthy deal with Elena Kagan. Is she the leader of the Senate? Then all countries with presidential systems should be posted in ITN when the equivalent post is changed. Fixman (talk!) 03:50, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not turn this into another pro vs anti-American argument. That won't benefit any of us and I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point DC was trying to make. As I understand it (as an Englishman, so correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong), she was the solicitor general of the US (which is a fairly significant but not high-profile government position) and is now a SCOTUS justice, I believe Obama's first. These kinds of appointments aren't made that often and there's always a big song and dance about them and SCOTUS is a very powerful court- much more so than comparable institutions in other countries, like the UK Supreme Court, for example, so appointments to it are quite significant. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One correction, Kagan is Obama's second appointment, after Sonia Sotomayor, which it appears that ITN did post. In general, though, you're right. These average around one every two years. Courcelles (talk) 04:17, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. Been a long time since a update (I don't consider bumping Pakistan refreshing the template) and Kagan's article is about as updated as it can get until she is sworn in. Courcelles (talk) 03:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose: How come a country's supreme court appointment gets figured on ITN? I believe this is not the trend followed for rest of the globe. WP should not give importance to one person based on what she MAY OR MAY NOT do when she assumes office. --GPPande 09:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I don't see how this is noteworthy in a global context. Hungary and Poland both got new presidents! Ah, Wikipedia. Night w (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. At least Sotomayor was the first Hispanic SCJ, as well as third woman. Kagan by contrast is now the fourth woman SCJ (obviously), and the eighth Jewish SCJ. There's nothing remarkable about this appointment in the slightest - she was previously Solicitor General and Dean of Harvard Law. And I'd be very interested in any argument that the USSC is 'more powerful' than the UKSC, or any other sovereign country's court of last resort. Declaring that the act of simply appointing a new USSCJ is automatically ITN worthy smacks very much of 'it's america so it's important'. No deal. Let's see if it would make it as an ITN/R as a generic point for all countries, before we entertain that sort of systemic bias.... MickMacNee (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The U.S. high court is more important in its country than the UK Supreme Court because the U.S. has a written constitution establishing a separation of powers, while the U.K. has parliamentary sovereignty. That means final word on many laws in the U.S. comes from the court, not from the legislature. When a new SCUK judge is appointed, will it be front-page news across the U.K. media? Will they have nationally televised hearings? If appointments to the SCUK were a political prerogative, as SCOTUS appointments are, would it be considered among a government most-important powers and a crucial election issue? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 18:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The SCUK has the power to overrule anybody in Parliament, right up to the PM. Highlights this last year include the striking down of many anti-terror measures and a whole lot of life sentencing tariff boohockey, as well as a hundered other judgements. And yes, they even get to decide abortion issues. I don't why this sort of every day shit is considered uber important in the US, but this sort of thing get's proportionate news coverage in the UK - we don't go apeshit over these judgements, and we don't turn the judges into celebrities, but the power is the same. And no, appointees are not given hearings nor are they appointed by political perogative, because we have an actual independent third branch - something you yanks don't seem to grasp the concept of too well, which is why you go all frothy about the prospect of some president or other being able to stack the deck at his whim. It's BS frankly, you need to sort your fucking lives out if you think the judiciary is supposed to be part of party politics. The judges of the court of last resort enforce the law, and they are the final word on the law (until it is changed), but they don't make the law. This is how every democratic country in the world does it AFAIK, which is why I am scratchiung my head as to why you think the USSC is so precious. Your wierd celebrity ways in yankland do not make your SC appointments internationally important, it just means the rest of the world is just laughing at your incompetence at doing it is so wonky frankly. MickMacNee (talk) 23:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If previous consenus was not to post then i would have opposed too. but meh with these items they get posted regardless on how many opposes it gets. I believe Sotomayor was posted 3 times lol. i will strongly oppose if this shows up when she is sworn in. -- Ashish-g55 13:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Whilst there is certainly an argument that the US Supreme Court is an influential body that makes important rulings, it is the rulings that matter, not who is and isn't a member. I would prefer we posted significant decisions as and when they occur, not changes to the make-up of the court, particularly when they're nothing new or surprising. Btw, I notice that this was nominated, garnered support and was posted entirely during a 2 hour period during which all of Europe, Africa & most of Asia was asleep, so I'm not surprised to see oppose !votes piling in after the fact. Modest Geniustalk 11:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Really, how far down the scale do we have to go in the US admin before they are deemed not worthy of inclusion, while heads of states of other countries don't even get a mention when there are changes at presidential/prime ministerial level? Might is not right. Just because the US makes up a large proportion of the readership, we don't have to become a news service for internal, domestic news for one particular part of the readership. It's an international encyclopedia, reflecting internationally important news in ITN. This isn't. And neither is Prop8, while we're about it.86.147.162.131 (talk) 14:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose lack of coverage outside of US. Go to any world-wide media service and this will not feature as one of the top stories. Can't even find a story about it on BBC or CNN. I think political positions such as presidents and prime-ministers etc should be the only things posted on ITN. JollyΩJanner 16:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support USA makes up half the readership of en wikipedia. 17:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)(Eraserhead1)
Oppose Got to agree with many of the above in that I fail to see how this is in any way notable outside the US. As an aside why was an item that was always going to be divisive, posted just a few hours after it was nominated? With the weight of opposes this now has, this will surely have to be removed and that just makes Wikipedia and ITN look rather foolish. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
as i said above Sotomayor was posted 3 times with all the opposes. This would have been too... and we seemed to have delayed it on her nomination to her confirmation (probably not a good idea). I dont get what the criteria is for these things anymore... is it ITNR to post all supreme court judges and only for united states? Its not really being covered much... not even in the US. I am thinking of changing mine to oppose too. -- Ashish-g55 17:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are two things here- first is that the number of opposers is disproportionate to the consensus because the only people in this discussion are those who feel strongly against its inclusion, whereas those who don't feel strongly or support its inclusion are much less likely to register their opinion here after the fact. The other thing is that there was consensus in at least two previous discussions to post this when she was confirmed. One last thing to consider is that, if this removed, we'll be 30-something hours without a new item on ITN and there are no other candidates that are likely to be ready within the next few hours. Whisky drinker | HJ's sock (Mistake? let me know) 17:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Which illustrates perfectly why more time should have been allowed to pass in the first place. If we had waited longer we would have had more input from both sides and a broad consensus could have been reached. Instead a quick decision was made, which has subsequently created a lopsided input as you point out. --Daviessimo (talk) 18:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Many of the oppose !votes above demonstrate a completely-reasonable misunderstanding about US politics. The Supreme Court is really not "far down the scale" at all. Due to the USA's three-branch system, the Supreme Court is just as powerful as the presidency or Congress. Every time most countries go through a change in their legislature or head of government, it gets posted on ITN; the Supreme Court has equal importance in US politics, so it should be treated the same. Brian the Editor (talk) 17:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But just because something is important in the US doesn't mean it is important outside the US. The issue here is that this supposedly important item is getting virtually no coverage outside the US. I mean it's not even one of the top four stories on the US&Canada section of the BBC website, let alone the world news main page. --Daviessimo (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just checked The Guardian, Der Speigel, and the Times of India, no mention; ridiculous to have this on the main page. Skomorokh 19:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How much prominence are those publications giving to the riots in Karachi, coronal mass ejections or the Israel-Lebanon firefight? News coverage isn't the only criterion otherwise we wouldn't post elections in countries the size of small cities that nobody's ever heard of. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; this local non-event has rightly been ignored by the international media, and there is no objective rationale for including it on the main page. Skomorokh 19:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Would removing it now or in the next few hours be so bad? I see interest, even in the US, waning long before the item makes its way to the bottom of the list. Abductive (reasoning) 19:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Its notable enough and will be of interest many readers. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Look, having Kagan on there doesn't mean something else isn't getting its turn. There's still plenty of room for non-U.S. stuff, like the other five of six ITN entries. If so many people are interested in Kagan, as made evident by the hits her article gets, and it meets all the other ITN criteria (which it clearly does), we should have it on ITN, period. I don't know why people freak out so much at having an occasional U.S. item on ITN. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Incidentally, when Kagan was nominated, there was quite a bit of worldwide coverage. That's when the real news was, and that's why I said we should have posted it to ITN then. But some people said it should wait until the confirmation. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given half the readership is American it wouldn't be totally unreasonable if half the entries on ITN were US stories - whereas in reality the number is probably 5-10%. Now I do like the more international focus, and I will support stories outside "the West", but we can't completely ignore the fact that most en.Wikipedia readers are Americans.
If half the readership was Indian, which maybe one day it will be, then I'd be supporting lots more domestic Indian stories. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing wrong with having USA featuring the most ITN than other countries, but perhaps in other sectors. There's too much politics on the ITN at times and I think this really isn't a notable event compared to the regular stuff we post on here. It's not even the top stories on the Fox News politics. JollyΩJanner 22:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fox News isn't exactly a reliable source... And they hate Obama - so they are hardly going to post something positive about him. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see where you're coming from, although this is the Senate confirming her position, not Obama's nomination. Weridly the article is bias towards Obama. JollyΩJanner 22:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) That would be an opinion and is hardly a valid reason to denounce the source altogether. The matter of Fox News' reliability has yet to be resolved, and I suggest any discussion of it be made there, not here. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 22:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fox News has had dozens of stories on Kagan since her nomination -- see [48]. It's now quite a ways after the confirmation vote, and, as I mentioned before, the big news was when she was nominated, at which time it was the lead story across the U.S. national media. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 16:01, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WHY IS THIS NOT REMOVED??? Even after strong oppositions and valid arguments why is this not removed yet from ITN??? --GPPande 04:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: No international coverage, outside US. Kagan just became a associate judge, not even the chief justice. Are we suffering from Wikipedia:Systemic bias? --RedtigerxyzTalk 09:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There was international coverage when she was nominated, which was when I suggested the event be posted. The objection at the time was we should wait until the confirmation. Now she's confirmed and people are objecting there's no international coverage. The antis can't have it both ways. It's hardly systemic bias when there is one U.S. item on ITN out of seven (and two for Pakistan!). Also, associate judges' votes and opinions count just as much as those of the chief justice. With no personal attack intended, this is yet another example of a non-American who doesn't understand America trying to make an importance judgment about a U.S. item. That's like me trying to make judgments about cricket. I wish people would stop trying to comment on things they don't know about. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 16:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
International coverage of Kagan
Several people have mentioned this event lacks international coverage. While I contest that should be a requirement for an ITN item, I'd like to point out that this event did have significant international coverage when Kagan was nominated, which was when I said it should have gone up. Some people said we should wait until the confirmation to post it, so we did. Here are examples of international coverage of Kagan's nomination and confirmation:
I hope this proves this is a story with international coverage, even if some of the coverage occurred at the beginning of the event (the nomination) rather than the time we chose to post it (the confirmation). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
U.S. national media front-page coverage from Kagan's nomination
As mentioned above, the real "news story" on Kagan was her nomination in April. To reiterate that the appointment of a Supreme Court justice is a real big deal in the U.S., I've linked to the front pages of some major U.S. newspapers from the day after her nomination below, via the Newseum's Today's Front Pages website. Note that most of the stories are what they call "second day" stories -- analysis pieces rather than breaking news -- since her nomination really wasn't a surprise and everyone had already heard about it on TV.
Wikipedia: by Americans, for Americans. 87.112.158.100 (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If your country made up half the audience of en.Wikipedia I'd be supporting stuff like this in your country too. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:54, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we know your thoughts on who makes up the "audience", as you call it, of Wikipedia. You've repeated them six or seven times already on this page. The fact that Americans shout the loudest about this doesn't mean that the voices of the other half should be completely ignored. 87.112.158.100 (talk) 22:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Other countries aren't completely ignored - just because the US gets a few extra domestic stories certainly doesn't mean anyone else is getting ignored. Additionally I'm more than happy to support events in the the rest of the world - recently I've supported stories on the constitution of Kenya and landslides in China. And FWIW I'm not an American. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've misunderstood – I said "Americans shout the loudest about this", i.e. the appointment of some associate judge, not even the chief justice. The countless people who are indicating that this is not of international importance are being ignored here. This joke of a story is still sitting on the main page; and it is particularly prominent because it's been given a photo because it's American, and Americans are the best. 87.112.158.100 (talk) 07:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So just because all the opposes have rebuttals, they get ignored? What about the far fewer number of supports, that also have rebuttals? How come they don't get ignored too? Oh, I forgot, because the system is skewed towards Americans, who always believe that what goes on in their domestic politics is of course of international importance. 81.129.134.110 (talk) 07:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose, remove at once per previous ITN precedent that only heads of state and government of souvereign states are sufficiently relevant. Way more important events in European countries have been denied mention on ITN - such as the election of a new Prime Minister of a state with 8 million inhabitants. The US centrism on the main page needs to stop, this is supposed to be an international encyclopedia. The appointment of some new US judge is utterly irrelevant to the outside world, it's domestic politics.
This Kagan person is just one of several judges. She's not even the chief justice. If we were to report appointments of all supreme court judges around the world, we would probably have daily updates on this.
Would the appointment of a new judge (not chief justice) in, say, Italy, Germany or Poland be mentioned on the main page? Josh Gorand (talk) 21:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
David McAllister is the leader of a sub-national political unit. Kagan is on a national high court. Since "domestic politics" are those pertaining to a specific country, your same argument could be used against Kenya's new constitution, Malawi's new flag, and any of the prime ministers or presidents that get posted with little objection. And we're still waiting to see a link to the discussion where it was decided that only heads of state and government are relevant. Brian the Editor (talk) 22:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The key word here is "leader". McAllister is the leader of a state with 8 million inhabitants. The comparable position in the US at the federal level is President. Kagan is NOT the President of her country. The discussion ends there. Merely working for a national government or being "on" a court at the national level does not indicate notability, what indicates notability (as far as ITN is concerned) is being the head of that government (or head of state) – there are dozens and dozens of people in the US that are equally or more important than this judge. Your comparisons with the constitution of Kenya or Malawi's flag are not relevant. Domestic politics in this context means politics that are of little interest to the outside world. Per previous ITN precedent, only appointments or elections to the highest offices of souvereign states, such as head of state or government, are notable. If Kagan is included, then so must all appointments of German judges at the federal level. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Legislative elections are also posted quite often, even the ones that don't result in a new PM. Most countries don't have a single "highest office", but have some sort of separation of powers in which the high court, the legislature, and the chief executive are all equally important. Brian the Editor (talk) 23:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Josh is greatly misinformed, and would be better off if he spent his time reading articles on US gov't than bashing us for posting this. 1) Being Chief Justice gives no more power than being an associate justice. 2) Where does it say being head of government or head of state is the sole criteria for being ITN-worthy? 3) Does the appointment of judges in the countries you mentioned get as much attention as appointments to SCOTUS? (see sources above). 4) Last year's gubernatorial elections in Virginia (pop 7.8 million) and New Jersey (pop 8.7 million) didn't get posted on ITN either, as no gubernatorial elections make it. So drop the McAllister BS. Hell, by your logic NYC's election (which took place the same day as Virginia and NJ) should be posted, since its population is 8.3 million. ~DCLet's Vent 03:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to cite what someone else said in this very discussion: "Well, I'm sorry, but like most of the world, I'm not part of your country, so for me, like most people, Elena Kagan is as relevant as Gustavo Madero". No, I'm not the ignorant one. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed I have removed this item per the overwhelming rejection above. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the record. The U.S. has a three part government (president, congress and court). -SusanLesch (talk) 20:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pakistan floods bump
I suggest bumping the Pakistan floods back to the top. The disaster is clearly ongoing (getting worse, even), it's still in the headlines and the article is continuing to be updated. Besides, when was the last time we had an ITN item on over 1,000 deaths? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is worse than initially thought.--Wikireader41 (talk) 01:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
January with Haiti lol. but yes support for bumping it up if there is some actual update to blurb atleast. -- Ashish-g55 01:50, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Any good suggestions for the blurb? Obviously we don't want to just move the same one a bit further up the template! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC... Worst flooding in Pakistan's history kills over 1600 people and affects 4 million... something similar to that? -- Ashish-g55 02:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bloody hell, 1600? Our article will need updating then, since it's currently saying 1100. Anyway, we're in need of an update and this seems uncontroversial, so I'll update with that blurb. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I was just going to suggest this myself since the death toll is rather large, it has affectedmillions of people (UN figure) and this is still being reported every day. --candle•wicke 04:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply] Oppose. Since we haven't posted the Chinese floods at all, and they are about the same scope of disaster as the Pakistani floods, I would say that it is inappropriate to bump this story. I would support a combination item though, featuring both the Chinese and Pakistani floods. __meco (talk) 06:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh.. I strike my oppose then. I'm still not in favour of bumping outright. __meco (talk) 18:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Large death toll, and their president is getting a bit of abuse for visiting Britain. It's a disaster and a political crisis in one. WackyWaceconverse | contribs 07:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Simply being ongoing is no reason to arbitrarily move items up the template. And everything on ITN gets ongoing updates, that's the whole point of the exposure, that is no reason to do it either. And I wouldn't trust any death tolls at all frankly, I would not be surprised if it is wholly innaccurate at this time. And if you want to keep bumping items simply due to high death tolls, then the Iraq war should have been top billing for years. MickMacNee (talk) 11:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Numbers affected have now increased from yesterday's four million to twelve million. --candle•wicke 18:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]
Support - This is clearly the most notable and serious news story at the moment. Should be at the top. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support given the developing situation there, though I don't think it was justified at the time of the nomination. As the water sweeps down the country, millions more are being displaced and hundreds more lives lost. However, I think we should only bump it if something is added / changed in the blurb, beyond just the figures. Modest Geniustalk 20:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Doing this now. f o x 18:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this per MicMacNee. ~DCLet's Vent 22:11, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was already done once. You've now bumped this for a second time! Jeeeesus. Where is Noah? He must be around here somewhere surely. MickMacNee (talk) 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update. The number of affected rises to 14 million. ~AH1(TCU) 22:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least 17 more people are killed during a third day of violence in Karachi, with police given orders to shoot on sight as buildings burn. Current death toll: At least 80. (BBC)
Russian pianist, conductor and composer Mikhail Pletnev cancels some appearances while he deals with accusations that he raped a 14-year-old boy in Thailand. (BBC)
Pham Thanh Binh, the former boss of Vinashin, one of Vietnam's largest state-owned companies, is arrested on suspicion of nearly bankrupting the company. (BBC)
Israel charges three Arab men with spying for Syria; they deny the charges and one is alleged to be a human rights activist.[clarification needed](BBC)
A woman who is alleged to have been raped by two police officers appears on Egyptian television where she is interviewed about the experience. (BBC)
Preliminary results of the referendum on the new Constitution of Kenya show it has passed with 67 per cent of the vote following a peaceful election. (Aljazeera)
Those campaigning against the new Constitution concede defeat. (BBC)
A few things we can add is it's been open for 106 days, 4.9 million barrels (575 million litres) of oil was lost, and the explosion that caused it killed 11 workers.--Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 03:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support as we always said we will post it one last time once its finally over. -- Ashish-g55 13:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It isn't over. They've plugged the hole—meaning they can now begin to drill the relief well, which will plug it permenantly. WackyWaceconverse | contribs 18:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The source given states that finishing the relief wells in mid-August is what 'seals the well permanently'. MickMacNee (talk) 16:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Officials say more than 28,000 people have died in Mexican drug violence since December 2006, thousands more than previously thought. (BBC)
India expresses deep regret that its police had to kill at least 28 people this week in Kashmir, with its Home Affairs Minister requesting that protesters stop. (BBC)
At a meeting of the national Security Council Medvedev states: "By no means you may allow anarchy [...] You must not let the situation go out of local authorities' control". (Xinhua)
Ahmadinejad denies rumors that he survived an assassination attempt If only it were nearer April 1st: what a brilliantly mis-phrased headline. Kevin McE (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Former Ugandan President Godfrey Binaisa has died at the age of 90. Former head of state. Article needs an update, but I won't be able to do so, I'm having computer troubles. Connormahtalk 18:13, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to oppose. The death of a head of state isn't ITN/R so it's a case-by-case thing. The guy was an appointed provisional President who served for less than a year. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I really have no opinion of this - I'm just bringing it up here for the sake of discussion :). Connormahtalk 20:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm neutral, possibly leaning towards weak support. The death of a former head of state is significant and we have posted the majority in recent months, but then he wasn't in office for long. He was only the 5th President of Uganda. I'm torn. Either way, the article could will need some work. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support since he served as a president. --candle•wicke 23:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm playing devil's advocate more than anything else, but I believe we posted an American civil servant of some sort who served as POTUS for a few minutes. Can't for the life of me remember his name, though. Also, Uganda doesn't often make the news in the Anglosphere, but that's more because of systemic bias than because nothing newsworthy happens there. While we shouldn't post items just to be appearing to counter systemic bias, we shouldn't let it stand in the way of valid items. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:44, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I've said before, I don't think ITN is the place to fight the world's systemic bias. ITN is the place to feature quality Wikipedia content that is of interest to a lot of readers and is literally "in the news." Maybe in an ideal world, people would care as much about this guy as they did about Gerald Ford (who actually had quite a bit of a career before becoming president), but the fact is those most likely to read this Wikipedia don't, and the content reflects that. Plus, with 200 or so states and quasi-states in the world, if merely being a head of state qualified for a death listing on ITN, we'd have such deaths on ITN all the time. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A mere 2-sentence update is hardly enough to qualify the article for ITN. No, thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some more sentences added. --candle•wicke 04:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Binaisa was one of three presidents that the anti-Amin rebel factions churned through in their power struggle after they took control. Those three, like the two presidents after the second Obote administration, were either figureheads of warring factions or managed to kill their opponents quickly enough to briefly rise to the top before being overthrown themselves. While Presidents Obote, Amin and Museveni all had long-term impacts on the direction of the country, and certainly are/were worthy of an ITN blurb, Binaisa is as much of a non-entity as a president can be. Unless ITN is hurting for an update or someone thinks that some Africa coverage would be useful to spread out topic coverage, I don't think too many people will be upset if Binaisa doesn't make it on. - BanyanTree 05:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Served for a short time, and BanyanTree seems to think this guy was a non-entity. Since nobody has provided any evidence to contradict this, it's an oppose. MickMacNee (talk) 11:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per above, I guess. This is a couple days old, as well. Connormahtalk 22:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Ashishg55. :) --candle•wicke 04:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
cant assume anything with billionaires... didnt get there by giving money away lol (maybe gates... but still) -- Ashish-g55 13:53, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is simply nice news, it's not amazingly significant in the grand scheme of things. While these people may be billionairres, I'm sure their intended donations don't even come close to the sum of global private donations, or routine governmental aid packages. MickMacNee (talk) 16:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A-Rod hits #600
Alex Rodriguez becomes the youngest Major League Baseball player to hit his 600th home run, joining six other hitters who have reached the milestone.
Again, kind of hard to get across the import unless you live in North America and understand all the schmaltzy feelings people have over baseball, history and statistical milestones, especially home run hitting, but this is a big deal if you are into this kind of thing. Take it or leave it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose being the seventh person to hit 600 home runs isn't newsworthy unless you are ESPN.com. We aren't. --PlasmaTwa2 23:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Maybe when he breaks Hank Aaron's real record (I kid, I kid...) While an impressive mark, it's just not that newsworthy as a major record would be. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Martin Brodeur's record wins were not posted as that was deemed too local... This is far down the list. If this was a record then maybe but 7th person to do so isnt that huge -- Ashish-g55 23:17, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. 6th person sounds insignificant, and given the choice of taking or leaving it with no other info provided, I'm leaving it then. MickMacNee (talk) 23:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea how significant this is (or what it means) because I don't follow baseball (and have no desire to learn what it means) but we did post some cricketer not long ago, but my interest in cricket is only slightly more than in baseball, so I've no idea what that was either, just wondering if the two records are comparable. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I could never figure out why we posted that cricket item after we decided not to put up items like Brodeur's all time record in wins. --PlasmaTwa2 23:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding cricket: I think we included Muralithuran becoming the first man to take 800 Test wickets and also Tendulkar being the first man to score a double hundred in an ODI, and before that I think we included Tendulkar becoming the all-time leading Test run scorer.But I think we have stuck to firsts and outright records, we didn't include Dravid becoming the 8th man to 10,000 Test runs for example, which seems to be the nearest comparable record in cricket to Rodriguez's. ReadingOldBoy (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if you can make an apples-to-apples comparison. I don't know if cricket records and statistics have the kind of resonance in their world as baseball records do in theirs. People used to talk all the time about "the 500 club" in baseball, before the steroids era made that milestone less significant. Baseball fans used to be able to name off the top of their heads the 14 (before Eddie Murray) hitters who had reached the mark -- I once saw a "500 club" picture of them in a sports bar. I guess it's another one of things you kind of have to be in America to grasp. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:25, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
actually cricket records have quite a bit more value at world stage. First of all because they are international records and not records in a league. Second some records like Tendulkar's 200 have never actually been achieved by anyone ever. Thats the reason we posted those. I dont remember us ever posting a cricket item where it was 6th person to achieve some goal no matter how prestigious its considered. -- Ashish-g55 01:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In all honesty, I wouldn't rate the stats garnered in other baseball leagues outside the MLB, even the NPB as equal to the United States/Toronto league. The best baseball players aspire to play in the MLB and would even defect in order to do so. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 03:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The question is not whether cricket milestones are more meaningful from a statistical perspective. The question is whether they have as much resonance with fans. Last year, NFL running back Chris Johnson rang up 2,000 rushing yards in a single season, becoming the sixth person to do that. Yet it wasn't as much of a "big deal" in terms of news value because American football fans aren't as hung up on statistical milestones as baseball fans are. It's impossible to make an apples-to-apples comparison between sports, really. You have to judge these kind of things by the amount of public attention they receive. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'd consider an all-time record, but the seventh to hit an arbitrary number is meaningless. Courcelles (talk) 23:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment surely this is going to have to go to the Supreme court? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I agree that it's a big decision; however, like any other district level decision, they still have a long way to go before anything is finalized, with appeals and all. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 21:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support from what I've read elsewhere online it seems like this is a very strong ruling that is unlikely to be overturned at a higher court. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't recall us putting this up when it was originally voted on. And like Arsonal said, this is still far from over. --PlasmaTwa2 22:19, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The opponents have vowed to appeal, and considering the sharp ideological differences between the Supreme Court and the United States District Court for the Northern District of California, I'm sure this has a ways to go. Nonetheless, it has an immediate impact on all of the gay people in a state of 37 million people and will no doubt fan the flames of discord during the upcoming congressional elections nationwide. So I say support. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose US domestic news, interim decision, no major surprise, etc, etc. It's probably about time we just banned listing all US legal cases unless they are Supreme Court decisions, and only then if they have at least some international impact. MickMacNee (talk) 22:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many times do I have to say this: There is no rule against U.S. domestic news on ITN. If we can have news about solar phenomena that interest the 5% of English Wikipedia users that are astronomy aficionados (or news about the Malawian flag), then we can have news that is of interest to the 52% of English Wikipedia users who are American. You have every right to object to a suggestion for all of the other reasons, but "it's American" doesn't cut it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment is there a source for 52% of English Wikipedia readers being from the US? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't realise it was so high. In which case it doesn't seem unreasonable for US domestic news to be posted - as long as it affects the whole of the US. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That 53% argument is flawed because this only effects a single state; granted, though, it is the biggest. --PlasmaTwa2 23:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was responding to the argument that American domestic news should be dismissed out of hand, not referring to this particular item. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is actually. "ITN rejects items deemed trivial", previously described as "a story of international importance or interest" and "The most common form of opposition on this ground is that the news is "too local" and not of interest to people in the commenter's country of origin". From WP:ITN. I gave up reading that page years ago because ITN really does have no rules and is just organised POV addled chaos, but I thought I would go check anyway, if you are going to get all up in my grill about 'the rules'. You've tried to convince people many times that Wikipedia is read by Yanks and written for Yanks, but it's an argument that rightly usually falls flat, because it isn't and it isn't, on the whole, systemic bias issues aside. MickMacNee (talk) 23:32, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Previously" means "not anymore," Mick. I challenge you to find a single occasion where I've argued ITN should have only American items or cater exclusively to American readers. There are about six ITN items up at any given time, and there's nothing wrong with having one or two of them being U.S. items. By the way, you should really read the page Yankee: A "Yankee" or "Yank" is someone from the Northeast U.S., especially New England. Using the word "Yank" to describe all Americans is like using the word "Scot" to describe all British people. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:13, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, if you scroll down that article, it says that "yank" is a common term for US citizens in the UK and Australia, though I believe it's not considered "politically correct". Anyway, this discussion is deteriorating rapidly and we should move on. This will go up when it gets to SCOTUS, but posting it before that would be too soon. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:19, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update: This is currently the lead story at nytimes.com, washingtonpost.com, usatoday.com, cnn.com, msnbc.com, foxnews.com, abcnews.com, cbsnews.com, cbc.ca (Canada), globeandmail.com (also Canada), time.com, wsj.com (Wall Street Journal), guardian.co.uk, etc. Good enough for me. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
really local... if supreme court banned it then it would be more acceptable. media in west end will obviously all cover same story since there is nothing else going on. That isnt a good enough reason to post on ITN. oppose -- Ashish-g55
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm dwelling on this but I don't see how you can consider this "really local": California has 37 million people, more than Canada, and this is likely to have a nationwide impact politically. "Local" would be like a municipal law getting overturned. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. this involves interpretation of US constitution and would be of interest to a major chunk of english WP viewers ( even though mostly yanks).we should cater to our audience and not expect it to be the other way around.--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
almost every source i read says that the decision will most likely be appealed and end up in supreme court. we should post that decision not the step by step progress of prop 8... -- Ashish-g55 23:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Newsworthy item, but for consistency, we should wait until farther in the appeals process, since there is no way whatsoever this is not going to get appealed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 23:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until an unless it goes up as far as SCOTUS, otherwise we'd have nothing on ITN but federal judges striking down this bit of legislation or that bit of legislation, then we'd have to post the appeals and the appeals of the appeals ete etc. Support when it gets to the Supreme Court, but not before. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:21, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is the just the beginning of a long legal battle that will probably go all the way to the Supreme Court. 172.162.159.236 (talk) 02:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The suggested items already have their own dedicated sections MickMacNee (talk) 11:15, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Outside of the oil spill and immigration laws... The Prop 8 overturn and Kagan's approval to the Supreme Court are the two biggest news stories in the country right now. They NEED to be on the mainpage. Altarboy420 (talk) 01:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize we're not all Americans, right? America is a very small part of the world, and those are both purely domestic politics. Courcelles (talk) 01:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
they NEED to be on main page? did you bother to scroll down and see the prop 8 nomination and all the comments under it? -- Ashish-g55 01:48, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wtf? They don't need to be on the Main Page. This is the English-language Wikipedia, not Yankeepedia! I'm not one of those anti-American nutters, but some people need to realise that the world doesn't revolve around America and posts like this nom, quite frankly, make my blood boil. Fuck consensus, fuck the rest of the world and 6 billion people who inhabit it, this is America, so it needs to be on the Main Page! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Take it easy, pal. Wikiediting is supposed to be fun. Come back after a KitKat or sth....
Anyway, ITN needs nothing. When there is a well updated article related to big news around the world, we feature it. If we are not sure if it's big enough news internationally, we don't feature it. There should be no big deal. --PFHLai (talk) 01:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@ HJ, and community at large... Let me be clear: I personally DGAF about geographic bias on ITN, Anti-American or Pro; people can think and debate what they like, and for what it's worth, I agree that this story has no merit here. But, we also have to remember that this is the English Wikipedia and that the United States of America has a larger population than every other native Anglophone country in the world put together, besides the fact that Americans constitute 53% of the total readership of Wikipedia.en. Consequently, since this is indeed an encyclopedia which anyone can edit, it is not unreasonable to expect that someone perhaps unfamiliar with the inner workings of WP:ITN/C would expect U.S. domestic news to be of importance to the readers of an English language encyclopedia, to wit: this is User:Altarboy420's first edit to ITN... ever. So... HJ, or anyone else for that matter who gives a damn, I won't cite rules to you; you know them far better than I do, nor would I presume to lecture an editor with your tenure and experience on civility or any other vital aspect of WP, but you know as well as I that we all have to give the benefit of the doubt to an editor or an edit made in good faith. Recently, you gave me some sound advice which I took to heart:
"You learn to accept that some items just won't go up for one reason or another while others, which you or I might consider infinitely inferior, will. With over 1,000 edits to ITN/C, though, I've learned not to get attached to nominations!"
Truth... and well put. But I would point out that that sword cuts both ways. We can't become invested in a nomination or a cultural perspective in a negative sense either; it only serves to create conflict unnecessarily and bring a discussion away from the story and into the realm of personal ideology (perhaps the only thing that truly deserves no place on WP). The Nom was posted in good faith, why not keep it that way? However, you are all welcome to disagree; as I said before, I DGAF. Cwill151 (talk) 05:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a Londoner, and even I can't seem to turn on the news these days without seeing some mention of these two issues, the debate should be ongoing, just in the correct section. 109.123.99.32 (talk) 17:09, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It all depends on the content and context of the referendum. Here, the Constitutional reforms seem significant; all the more so in the political context. So I'm inclined to support but will be interested to hear others' views. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A new constitution is important enough. --candle•wicke 05:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Major event, supposed to pretty much end all the corruption problems in Kenya if it works. BTW, I think Proposed Constitution of Kenya, 2010 is the article for the document being voted on. C628 (talk) 14:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - a very important step for Kenya. I'm quite sure it would make ITN if the USA voted in even an amendment to the constitution, never mind a whole new one. I have updated the article with an expanded background section and a map showing provinces. It probably needs some more fleshing out with details of the voting process, more about who supported/opposed it and why and the final result tallies (which are not 100% in yet I believe). SteveRwanda (talk) 21:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PS - I will hopefully come back to edit this again tomorrow evening and expand with latest data (real life commitments pressing now unfortunately). It would be great if others could do stuff in the mean time, so we can get this to a state where it can be posted on ITN (if it's not already in that state). http://www.nation.co.ke is a great source for information in real time. SteveRwanda (talk) 21:59, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comparisons of "if it happened somewhere else" aren't very helpful. Nobody has compared this to the US and ITN items are decided on a case by case basis, so if we could keep the discussion focused on Kenya and not "if it was the US", that would be good. Also, I've added this to Template:ITN urgents in the hope of attracting more comments so we can get a consensus. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:04, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but it needs a paragraph or two of prose about the results, rather than just a table. Modest Geniustalk 13:22, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. While the update is weak, this item has the strongest consensus and we need an update. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the article again this morning. It still needs some more fleshing out, for example prose about the future direction. One thing I would like to see is the ITN entry expanded to include the result of the referendum, now that the final results are out and official. SteveRwanda (talk) 11:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ahmadinejad attack
- An attempt attack at Iran's president - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 09:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC) 09:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per meco, its not nominated above? at any rate, goes to show how crap cnn is not to verify their sources. Since the last few hours no source has continued such a "big story"Lihaas (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's better to not post it due to security reasons. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 18:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's many reasons not to post it, but security can't possibly be one of them. And uh, you nominated it, so why the sudden concern? --Golbez (talk) 18:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Security? Anyway, as it is not clear what actually happened and there is no article, there is no point in continuing this nomination. --Tone 18:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Local sources are very unclear, Iran denied the attempt I think to not create panic and possible violence in the area or a precedent. - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 18:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Nothing to post, no article, not a clue what this nom is even about. MickMacNee (talk) 20:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The last one was in 1994 plus it is near a tourist beach so maybe that increases its international impact as well. Either way it has been a long time. Is there an article? --candle•wicke 15:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now, still seems rather minor for an outbreak. --Tone 18:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Candlewicke, white people/tourists being affected shouldn't make it any more notable than locals. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't mention white people. :) --candle•wicke 19:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless the outbreak expands significantly. For now it is low impact in an ITN sense. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support. Did we post the Qinghai pneumonic plague outbreak last year? That affected an entire community of 10,000 and killed three people. However, this recent outbreak may be related to the recent cold weather and winter storms around Peru, although that article is still in bad shape. ~AH1(TCU) 23:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. --Tone 18:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not a hope. And these sorts of mass-shootings are a dime a dozen in Yankee land. MickMacNee (talk) 20:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wish people would stop dismissing out of hand things on topics they don't know anything about in countries they're not familiar with. A shooting that kills eight people is not an everyday occurrence in America. This was the deadliest shooting in Connecticut since 1998 and worst in the U.S. since the Fort Hood shootings last November. Support -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:26, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with Mick's anti-American statement (though I have to say that, with such backward gun laws, it's not really surprising these things happen) but some people here seem to have a pro-American stance, supporting every American item because it's American. For example, Mwalcoff, would you support this if it wasn't in the US? That said, I wouldn't blame you for supporting solely to cance out the bias demonstrated in Mick's comment. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely would support this if it were in the UK, Canada, Australia, etc., especially because it would be even rarer in those places. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Good day again Mwalcoff. No, this is a very small thing by US standards and isn't going to have any political ramifications or legacy, eg gun control, or racially/religiously motivated crime causing revenge riots etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, nine dead is no "very small thing" in the U.S., period. If it was, it wouldn't be getting so much national media attention. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A random person who is disgruntled against an employer who sacked them, or with a former spouse or family court judge for not getting custody, then killing people is hardly even notable for an article, as they are just run of the mill crimes with no legacy regardless of how much big news they create. If it was a serial killer who then evaded capture for a while and caused lasting panic, maybe, or a giant massacre. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:41, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. It's a little difficult to assess the context as I haven't studied who this assassinated Haider person is and the political history of all this, but the riots certainly are very serious and the death toll is high. I'm a bit unsure because the scope of the actual street protests isn't immediately obvious or may not be directly proportional to the number of dead who seem to have been more or less executed. Widespread rioting basically causing the huge city of Karachi to chut down. Major event. __meco (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have expanded it a bit. could you look it over.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Assassination + major world city shutting down + riots + lots of deaths and injuries = ITN. --candle•wicke 15:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak support per Candlewicke it does warrant a place (enough death would have an attack get ITN) -- but...the assassination wasnt a big leader, he was just an MLA (or whatever they call it in Pak). So count my vote as a tie-breaker if need beLihaas (talk) 18:27, 4 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Comment. the story here are the widespread riots/shutting down of one of the largest cities in the world. The assassination which triggered them is of secondary importance. Raza Haider was described as a senior Muttahida Qaumi Movement (one of the largest political parties in Pakistan)leader.--Wikireader41 (talk) 18:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Police fill the streets of Karachi and Hyderabad is also deserted. (Reuters)
Twin explosions kill at least 3 people and injure at least 50 others in a crowded shopping area in Kut, Wasit; women and children are seen bleeding in the streets. (BBC)
Authorities shoot dead at least 2 people for protesting on a highway near Srinagar in Kashmir. (Aljazeera)
The daughter of former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, Bristol Palin and Levi Johnston once again call off their engagement after it's revealed that Johnston fathered a child with another woman. (ABC)
A letter is unveiled demonstrating how Robert Burns was "reduced and shattered" in his final days; it will soon be exhibited in Edinburgh, Scotland. (BBC)
Tokyo's "oldest woman" cannot be located, casting doubts upon her claim to the title. (BBC)(The Guardian)
Nearly £2 billion of savings are revealed to have been removed from the UK's nationalised Northern Rock bank. (The Guardian)
Ecuador says it will not drill for oil in the Yasuni National Park for at least a decade after being provided with $3.6 billion (£2.26 billion) - half the money it would receive from selling the oil - in a deal signed with the United Nations. (BBC)
Seven people go on trial in Kuwait accused of spying for Iran against Kuwait and the United States; they deny all charges and say they were tortured into confessing. (BBC)
The first major Earth-directed solar eruption in a decade will generate aurorae visible in non-polar areas from early August 4th to August 5th. (Foxnews.com)(CNN)
This good big too in international politics because Salebi was a former chief of Interpol and the highest ranking South Africa official to be found guilty of corruption (S. Africa is in the spotlight too just a month after the world cup)(Lihaas (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
Who? What? Link? Info? Article? I've no idea what the story is here. Modest Geniustalk 20:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Jackie Selebi, sentenced to 15 years in jail for corruption, I think. It's a bit late, though, IMO, since the verdict came a month ago, there isn't that much to update the article with beyond a sentence or two saying he was sentenced. C628 (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Default oppose, totally inadequate nom. S Africa angle is spurious at best. MickMacNee (talk) 00:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm not seeing the international significance of this (despite the Interpol connection). And the article is frankly a debacle.--Mkativerata (talk) 05:36, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Former chief of Interpol convicted of massive corruption! 'nuf said. __meco (talk) 10:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I might have supported the verdict, but that was a month ago. This is just the sentencing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lebanon and Israel exchange of gunfire
Lebanon and Israel's exchange of gunfire comes amid increased tensions and warnings of war in the region (and also follows a notable visit to Lebanon over the weekend). With all these facets it is not an ordinary firefight. This it warrants inclusions, particularly on the repercussions to come.(Lihaas (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
Oppose. Just a firefight. It might be significant today, but it won't be in a year or even a week. There's no lasting significance to a single exchange of gunfire. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support "in the news" is meant for today, not for eternity. Also, border fighting between two UN members is a rare event. --DAI (Δ) 17:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
::Oppose, being such a volatile region, such incidents are not unusual. C628 (talk) 15:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On its own perhaps, but in context of this week. Lebanon was leading the int'l news on Friday and again 4 days later...(for very similar reasons)(Lihaas (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)).[reply]
Support. Sources indicate this is not usual (where on earth did that idea come from?).
The Guardian - "most serious clashes along Israel-Lebanon border since 2006 war".
Los Angeles Times - "The deaths are the first since the end of the 2006 Lebanon War".
Sky News - "the most serious escalation of violence since the 2006 war".
The New York Times - "the fiercest clash in the area since Israel’s monthlong war against the Lebanese Hezbollah militia in the summer of 2006".
TIME - "Is the Middle East on the Brink of a New Regional War?"
Al Jazeera - ""This is a very significant development," said Rula Amin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Beirut. "For the first time in years, clashes are taking place between Israel and the Lebanese army, not Hezbollah.""
And so on and on and on... I selected those at random; there are lots more if you wish. --candle•wicke 16:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I meant that skirmishes in general involving Israel are frequent; every other week you'll hear of the latest attack in the region. I would seem to be mistaken in that this particular incident is minor or run-of-the-mill; my comment is duly struck and I have no comment on the nomination. C628 (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Those just show that it's an escalation of a conflict that has been going on for decades and there always seems to be an escalation of violence on one Israeli border or another. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts?
Comment Apparently, this is a significant report, and it deserves to be mentioned in the ITN template, but what is the key article which contains the report?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still weakly opposed to this, but we are 19 hours without an update, so perhaps someone could suggest a blurb? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support mentioned on the front page of the Economist, and they don't usually report news stories. For the blurb: Four troops are killed in a skirmish on the Lebanon-Israeli border.. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What, the dead journalist doesn't matter? C628 (talk) 21:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I've omitted all casualty figures etc since they're not the most important part of the story and would make the blurb excessively long. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
CAN We link to the respective armed forces of the counries instead of the country name -- it was something explcitly mention in talk which was the reason for the redirect (and the infobox)(Lihaas (talk) 22:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
- At least 18 deaths after a fire in Nigel near Johannesburg, ZA.BBC - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 10:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when expanded. --candle•wicke 14:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Article is one line long and that one line is in the present tense. We're an encyclopaedia, not a news service. So far I see nothing to indicate that this will have any historical significance (ie, will it be widely remembered in 10 years' time) and I'm tempted to AfD the article. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article is too short, and its content does not offer enough information for the reader. It would be better to stay off the proposal for a while, and to comment once article will be expanded. Meanwhile, the event should not be mentioned in the template.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
strong oppose per HJ Mitchell, even 10 days time im sure it wont, still not global coverage.Lihaas (talk) 15:50, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Please. Enough of the one line sub-stub noms on events that are not and never will be internationally significant. MickMacNee (talk) 00:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Plane crash in Igarka, Russia - 12 deaths - Eugen Simion 14 (talk) 07:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak support let see if something else comes to fill the vacuum today(Lihaas (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Strong support Since the ITN template always documents such events, this should not be excluded.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We don't document every aircraft that ever crashes, otherwise ITN would have nothing but plane crashes. No opinion on this particular crash, though. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My point was not to mention only aircraft crashes. The template should document widely variety of current events, but in the 5-6 events mentioned, there is always an aircraft crash, train collision or derailment, or flooding. Thus, it is not uncommon or strange to document this event. I appreciate your wish to explain the usage of the template, but apparently we should try to slant it not only on events, which cause human deaths. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Planes crashes don't occur that often and this one has killed people. --candle•wicke 14:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A regional airline crashing a small plane in the Russian Federation is sadly common. Russia has two airlines who are in- or invited to- a global alliance (Aeroflot and S7), and the quality and safety record goes down dramatically from there. Our page on the An-24 lists this as the third crash for this type of plane this year. Courcelles (talk) 18:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, small plane crash in a region where such things are sadly common. Also, there are bigger car crashes in most countries every day. Modest Geniustalk 20:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Substandard nom. Zero evidence of significance. MickMacNee (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Western countries: Northern hemisphereSky watchers [in the northern U.S. and other countries] should look toward the north late Tuesday or early Wednesday (CNN))
(Middle east countries: Early & late wednesday (4th), and late wednesday)
(Eastern countries: Early & late wednesday, early Thursday)
This news is exeptional, we need to react fast. (I have to go to visit a friend and will turn off my PC (I'm already late actually), I just took this news to wiki. Can't do more. Please take the lead ! be bold ! Best regards) Yug(talk) 15:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support , and VERY strong support if someone find the climax of eruptions in UTC time. Rewording welcome (be bold! move fast). 15:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't look like that article (or rather the article to which it redirects) has been updated. We'll need an update somewhere (it doesn't really matter where) for it to have any chance of getting on ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You want a specific small section relate to the news in one article, is it that ? A new section in Aurorae may work, in Coronal mass ejection (=solar eruption) may also be relevant too. I have to go to visit a friend and will turn off my PC (I'm already late actually), I just took this news to wiki. Can't do more. Please take the lead ! be bold ! Best regards Yug(talk) 15:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. We are long overdue for this level of sunspot activity, and now the sun's literally exploding. Even if this may not be a Carrington Event it still could cause considerable disruptions on earth. __meco (talk) 15:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This im starting to support many science articles, bt nonetheless seems worthy enough for me support(Lihaas (talk) 17:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
You mean "Support", if I understand well. Yug(talk) 18:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support from me as well. Let's put a truly spectacular science story up for once. Aurorae in non-polar areas all over the world for two days? It would take an amount of energy orders of magnitude larger than even relatively energetic CME to produce that effect. If the article is created/updated then let's run with it! Cwill151 (talk) 18:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Any idea when this is going to happen? Also, a little more than 3 sentences for an update would be nice, as would a blurb suggestion, but I'm willing to post this when it happens. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:13, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait to see what happens tonight. If the auroral activity is as high as reports suggest it might be, I'll support. Modest Geniustalk 20:10, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
actually i suggest otherwise... post it early so people know and go out to actually see it. the news is about expected aurora anyways. after it happens not many will care for it. -- Ashish-g55 20:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gents the story is not about an expected light show for stargazers, the story is that scientists have captured videoof one of the largest CME's in recorded history. The video feed was captured using the new Solar Observatory satellite which makes a documentation of this type the result of a massive scientific endeavor years in the making, on a scale much larger than a new species in Madagascar or a ship found in Canada. The story is the encyclopedic value of this observation, not it's news value. But even for those who are not disposed to purely scientific interest, the effects of this ejection (that is to say the massive and widespread aurorae) will affect people on a global scale. To answer HJ, I haven't been able to find a conclusive time frame for the auroral disturbance, but I checked with a colleague who works with the HST, and he said that due to the varying velocity of the plasma, and the variations in the solar radiation pressure due to the ejection itself, it's nigh impossible to report more than an estimated time-frame for observation; which is between roughly 11pm and 4am (EST) tonight for the U.S., dependent on geographic location and the local strength of the geomagnetic field in the area. Cheers! Cwill151 (talk) 21:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Latest reports are of four CMEs. That's sufficiently unprecedented that I'm changing to a support on its own. If we get spectacular aurorae (first CME is due to hit about now-ish) that's even more of a reason to post. Modest Geniustalk 22:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The Sun undergoes a series of four large coronal mass ejections || resulting in strong aurorae visible in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres" with the stuff after the || added if/when the aurorae show up (they may already be, some of the satellite proxies suggest so but we should wait for documentary evidence). Modest Geniustalk 22:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HJ, I realize that you just posted the Israel-Lebanon incident with picture, but would it be against tradition to post this picture on MP instead? It seems like a more spectacular image, as well as far more descriptive/relevant? It's cool if not. Cwill151 (talk) 22:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. That's a much better image. Trouble is, another admin just removed the blurb from ITN. He believes it isn't sufficiently updated. I've left him a note, but any more material that could be added would be great. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HJ, I'm in the process of providing a more thorough update as we speak: ETA < 1 hr, though I might need some help formatting sources... Cwill151 (talk) 23:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Might I suggest Wikipedia:RefToolbar? If you're doing online sources, just copy-paste the URL, hit the button, et voilà. I'd help, but I'm afraid I'm off to bed. Modest Geniustalk 00:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Updated: There, I've gone ahead and updated the article further to include more known information as well as some much needed prose. I think it qualifies as MP material now. Also there is a great 3 second public domain video clip of the ejection here. If anyone can help to embed it next to the prose, it would be much appreciated. Cheers! Cwill151 (talk) 00:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the file can be downloaded free from the same site. Cwill151 (talk) 00:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, re-posted, now the update has been padded out a bit. Now, how am I going to work that image into the blurb? Any suggestions? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:53, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb Action: I have updated the article to include the reports of aurorae observed last night due to the first CME, can someone fill in the missing blurb section on MP? It would be much appreciated, thanks. Cheers! Cwill151 (talk) 20:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An antiques dealer is imprisoned for handling a copy of the First Folio by poet and playwright William Shakespeare, though cleared of actually stealing it, in the UK. (BBC)
The European Union announces it will end its mission to reform security forces in Guinea-Bissau due to the deteriorating situation in the country. (BBC)(News24)
Support A new species is ITN worthy. I notice this hasn't yet been picked up by international news so lets get this up and be way ahead of the game. Excellent job on the article. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:39, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Good article on an infrequent event, definitely worth a mention. C628 (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm neutral toward this as the species itself is nothing too extraordinary, just the fact that it is newly described. It would make a splendid DYK article though. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 22:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've no strong opinion on this particular nom, but these kinds of items do well to prove that ITN is about encyclopaedic content, not just the news ticker many mistake it for. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. We obviously don't post every new species discovered, but the fact that this is a carnivorous species from Madagasgar makes it especially notable. ~AH1(TCU) 01:13, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
3. The bourse and the economy is an aspect of Iran that is not well known in the West because of the constant focus on its nuclear program.
4. The article itself is well written and meets the "good status" in my opinion, as I spent a few days researching and updating it. Same for the economy of Iran.
The "in the news" line could be written something like this:
Im kinda of torn between this as ITN as indices dont get on for breaking a record (all the TEPIX has been up continously for more than a week breaking records, and in light of sanctions, etc it makes it notable. maybe try DYK to suggest its record despite sanctions and difersifying. The site is certainly well put together.
Also for ITN-worth it just futures contracts.
And what about the appeal for foreign investors targeting those in the UAE (esp. Iranian expats), read this some days ago. (Lihaas (talk) 22:15, 2 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose - I just don't see any of this as significant. Modest Geniustalk 22:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
May be we should make it more dramatic: "TSE hit all-time record high despite U.S. sanctions." —Preceding unsigned comment added by SSZ (talk • contribs) 23:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC) [reply]
That could be construed as a synthesis of two independent facts. Economic sanctions on a country is an international matter; a country's stock market performance is largely a domestic assessment. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 02:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please note: I didn't say because but despite of. No direct relationship is established between the two here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SSZ (talk • contribs) 03:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.236.229 (talk) [reply]
"Despite" indicates that something should have happened to the latter because of the former, still relating the two. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 02:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That link also says (in the first line) "The Tehran Stock Exchange rallied to a record high Wednesday, extending a months-long climb despite U.S. and U.N. sanctions that have hammered the economy". Therefore, support. --candle•wicke 14:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A stock market hitting a record high should not be that unusual. Stock markets are supposed to go up. That's why people invest in stocks. It may be interesting that the Iranian market has reached a record, but that doesn't make it an appropriate ITN item. Strong oppose -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The United Arab Emirates will suspend some BlackBerry mobile services from October amid concerns that data from some equipment is being exported offshore and managed by foreign organisations. Saudi Arabia plans to suspend some services later this month. (BBC)(Aljazeera)
Disasters
Thousands of troops are mobilised in Russia to tackle forest fires spreading in 17 regions, the worst in decades, as the death toll rises to 30. (Voice of Russia)(AFP)
Colombia denies claims by Venezuela that it is planning a military attack, a day after Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez said he was sending troops to their mutual border. (CNN)(Xinhua)
United Kingdom - Sarah's Law, a scheme which allows parents to check if someone with access to their children is a sex offender, will be extended to cover the whole of England and Wales by Spring 2011 after proving successful in four pilot areas. (BBC)
Support when the article is updated. --BorgQueen (talk) 12:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've updated the list of signatures and ratifications, but it needs an 'entry into force' section added. I'll do that later unless someone beats me to it. Modest Geniustalk 13:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. It needs some prose really. I'm conscious that we're 22 hours since the last update to ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, there's now 4 paragraphs of prose with a whole bunch of references. Modest Geniustalk 15:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do any of the countries which signed/ratified it use cluster bombs? JollyΩJanner 16:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several of them did, yes. See the lists at the bottom of cluster bombs - off the top of my head France, Germany and the UK all used them in war and have ratified. There are many others who have signed but not yet ratified. Modest Geniustalk 16:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Scientists announce the discovery of the world's first active undersea river, in the Black Sea.
Support as nominator. Seems like a pretty big deal; I've just created the article. It would be a good piece of science news among all the disasters and politics, perhaps replacing the Investigator. Lampman (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
conditional support as a first, but also needs expansion and organisation (sections, etc)(Lihaas (talk) 19:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC));[reply]
The article is relatively comprehensive based on the available sources, and probably too short for sections. It meets the criteria. Lampman (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nice science news. However, for those, we usually wait until a paper on the topic is published in a journal - do we have it already? --Tone 20:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's a press release by the university, and an article in the Telegraph. I'm pretty sure that's normally enough for an ITN; the HMS Investigator discovery, for instance, is based entirely on news sources. After all it's the announcement that's the news. If we wait for a peer-reviewed journal article it won't really be news any more. Lampman (talk) 20:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For science stories, we do wait for a peer-reviewed journal. Well, probably, these announcements are followed by a paper quite quickly, probably one has already been accepted somewhere. The discovered ship is a historical topic, they won't publish a scientific study on how they found it... --Tone 20:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not quite sure what you mean, surely you're aware that archaeologists (this was an archaeological discovery, not a historical topic) also have peer-reviewed journals? As for the criterion saying that only peer-review journal entries, and not official university press releases, are acceptable sources for science news, I am unable to find that anywhere. Lampman (talk) 20:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, bad example from my side... sure, this is archaeology. I won't oppose if this goes up now but it would be still nice to have a journal reference. --Tone 21:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I too would like to see evidence of a paper accepted by a peer-reviewed journal before supporting this. Modest Geniustalk 22:58, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support upon journal verification. This could tell a lot about how the Black Sea formed. ~AH1(TCU) 01:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support what exactly are we waiting for? This certainly meets all the requirements. --PlasmaTwa2 22:31, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Added a paragraph regarding the ceremony in Baghdad with comments from several U.S. officials including Vice President Joe Biden. Jusdafax 17:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Administrator note The update currently consists of "Varallo died on 30 August, 2010, in his hometown of La Plata at the age of 100" and is unreferenced. Ideally, we'd have a death section with a paragraph or 2 of information and reaction, but at the very least we need one decent sized, well sourced paragraph in the after retirement section. The rest of the article could also use some work, especially with sourcing. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:35, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Done -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Administrator noteThere are several massive chunks of totally unsourced information. I can't put an article on the MP like that. They need to be sourced or removed, but removing them doesn't leave us with much about the aftermath or reaction, which I would expect to see in an article on an incident more than 36 hours ago. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 03:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I knew that, honest! ;-) That looks good. I may append "...at Whistling Straits" depending on balancing needs, but I don't think the course is as important as the sport. TFOWR 10:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Removed I have removed this item per the overwhelming rejection above. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
