Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Generals Order

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of collectible card games. Daniel (talk) 01:48, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Generals Order (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Doesn't meet WP:NOTABILITY. Boleyn (talk) 21:06, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 21:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 21:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removing China from the list, since this is a primarily a Singapore topic. There are other game(s) in China with the same name, but I don't think they are the same. – robertsky (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Singapore-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 21:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• delete I am not finding English language references. References that were there were broken or self-referential. —¿philoserf? (talk) 22:28, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak keep found two sources about the game which support the assertion that the game is used in educational settings: https://web.archive.org/web/20120705041351/http://www.zbcomma.sg:80/friday/pages/09tup38.html and http://edublitz.com/go/GO_Inter-schools_Writeup.pdf. and also https://www.edublitz.com/sg/generals-order-3/ coupled with the pdf suggest that the game is still actively played till this day at least in school settings. – robertsky (talk) 23:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

addition sources (probable until I go down to the library to check the newspaper archives):

1. 将军令 纸上将军 号令天下 联合早报 (Lianhe Zaobao) 22 April 2009
2. 《将军令》开发人： 寓教于乐的游戏 联合早报 (Lianhe Zaobao) 22 April 2009
3. 《将军令》1岁了 邀你来比赛 联合早报 (Lianhe Zaobao) 22 April 2009
4. 《将军令》纸牌游戏 令中学生积极学华文 联合早报 (Lianhe Zaobao) 22 April 2009 – robertsky (talk) 23:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above four articles occupied one full page in that day's publication of Zaobao's pullout zbComma. The first went in depth into the rules and how to play the game, an interview with a student playing the game. The second was a brief interview with the game developer and that they were going into Hong Kong and Taiwan market (which they did in 2010 going into Hong Kong). The third was a short notice of an upcoming competition with a link to the game's website. The fourth is a short introduction to the articles in zbComma in the main Zaobao publication. zbComma is a pullout that is printed only for students in school and at selected retail outlets, mainly at Buzz convenient stores located at bus interchanges, bus stops, and train stations. – robertsky (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• • @Robertsky: can you link those sources, and tell us which meets WP:SIGCOV? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Piotrus, I will need to head down to the national library and have a look as it is only accessible in through their network. Over the weekend maybe. – robertsky (talk) 07:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • We can wait. To keep you from going there twice, I recommend scanning them. What we need to see is that those articles contained SIGCOV, i.e., non-trivial (and independent) mentions of this game. If all they have is a one-sentence mention that this game existed, it won't suffice to save this article. PS. That said, Google translate of the titles you cited above does suggest some coverage. Are you sure this newspaper doesn't have online version we could access now? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Piotrus, oh, i intend to copy them out. they had a site revamp 4-5 years ago. a lot of the old articles have been removed. if there are any traces, the best bet would be in archive.org, but searching through there is a pain. – robertsky (talk) 08:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

          That's a shame. Any chance you could find 'old links' somewhere and test them in the archive? I tried a few searches but not reading/speaking Chinese I really can't help much here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

          • Piotrus, I am downloading the entire archive through wayback-machine-downloader since 3 days ago, only 60% done. I doubt I can grep the archive in time. In any case, I am updating the above refs with a brief summary. – robertsky (talk) 02:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

            I appreciate your dedication. I am sure we can put this discussion on hold for a week or so at the very least to give you time to get to those articles. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delete. In the current form, notability is unclear, but I am open to reviewing more sources. The above links just confirms it exists, and being used as an educational aid is IMHO not enough to be notable. I've added a link to BGG ([1]), which doesn't contain links to any reliable coverage. Note that the BGG's translated title is Generals' Order, but actually, I don't see a single reliable source for this game's name in English? Also, no Chinese Wikipedia link is worrisome, if this was a major phenomena in Singapore I'd expect it would have a Chinese entry by now. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Piotrus, the number of Singapore based editors on enwiki is already small, let alone zhwiki. There are multi-term government ministers who still do not have a page on zhwiki despite the high profile and sustained coverage they have over the last decade or so. – robertsky (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's sad but we don't keep articles because of pity or systemic bias or whatever. They need to meet our criteria such as WP:GNG (with a special nod to WP:SIGCOV which still hasn't been shown). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:53, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm leaning keep given where the sources appear to come from, but I'm not having any luck with automated translations, so I can't see what the content of those sources are. If someone could ping me when we get new sources, or a reasonable sense of what is in each article, I'll look again. Hobit (talk) 18:01, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to List of collectible card games. While not reaching WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV yet, a redirect is probably a good compromise. Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 02:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  The reason I did not comment, is that I could not make up my mind, based on the evidence and my lack of experience. So there seems to be no consensus. So is this the solid compromise? Slimy asparagus (talk) 08:26, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Provisionally redirect to List of collectible card games per Justanothersgwikieditor, unless the Zaobao sources above can demonstrate WP:SIGCOV and the article can be suitably rewritten with those sources to avoid relying on the game's own website. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 04:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect to List of collectible card games. We just need to carry over any useful references to that page. Slimy asparagus (talk) 19:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.