Template talk:Professional wrestling in the United States

Professional wrestling Template‑class

Professional wrestling in the United States is within the scope of WikiProject Professional wrestling, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to professional wrestling. If you would like to participate, you can edit the template attached to this page, visit the project to-do page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to discussions.Professional wrestlingWikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestlingTemplate:WikiProject Professional wrestlingProfessional wrestling articles Template This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

We might consider adding the following:

• Houston Wrestling (Paul Boesch)
• International Championship Wrestling (Angelo Poffo)
• National Wrestling Federation (Pedro Martinez)
• NWA Detroit (The Sheik)
• NWA Hollywood Wrestling (LeBells)
• NWA Mid-America (Nick Gulas)
• NWA San Francisco (Roy Shire)
• NWA Western State (Funks)
• Southwest Championship Wrestling (Joe Blanchard)

Those are the remaining defunct major U.S. (I excluded Canada, since we now have our own template for it) promotions/territories, as depicted in a WWE-made, even though there are no articles on those promotions yet.

--Darkguy 01:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have thought that maybe we should put the promotions in alphabetical order? Mr. C.C. 07:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... I thought about that too at first, but the decided to go for an approach to sort them by importance/recognizability instead. Arguably, the most important indy in the US is ROH, OVW being the major WWE-development territory and genereally considered a very good promotion would follow, etc. My line of thought was, that people could easily browse the more important promotions that way. Alphabetical sorting might help to easier find the desired promotion. Since I actually put some time n establishing the order as it is now, I would leave things as they are. But if the majority disagress, we might as well sort them in alphabetical order. --Darkguy 03:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well seeing as we are going by notability at this time, shouldn't CHIKIRA PRO be ahead of Heartland Wrestling? Mr. C.C. 04:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

they should be liasted by importance

Importance is subjective and will lead to an unmanageable list.LM2000 (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Anything other than straight, objective alphabetical order. Anything else is WP:OR. oknazevad (talk) 00:19, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is not by any means notable enough to be called a national promotion. I can think of a few other indies that have more notability. KP McZiggy ^{(Allow Me To Introduce Myself...)} 01:03, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can some provide some clarification why ROH is not listed as a national? They really aren't an "indy" promotion anymore since Sinclair Broadcast Group bought them out. Thanks! (Bes2224 (talk) 17:31, 12 May 2013 (UTC))[reply]

Because they have no true national television deal. Their show is shown exclusively on Sinclair stations, none of which are in the top 10 media markets. Not even Philadelphia, where they are nominally based. So they don't have national distribution, and therefore aren't a national promotion. oknazevad (talk) 19:57, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarifying! (Bes2224 (talk) 05:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC))[reply]

ROH from 2009-2010 was on national cable network HD Net. Current owner Sinclair is continually buying stations in new markets all the time, increasing ROH's footprint. ECW didn't "become an indy" again after it was booted off Spike TV when WWF came in. Point is ROH did make it to national TV with HD Net, and once you're there, the top title should be regarded as world title level. (talk) Vjmlhds 23:05, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to revisit this item. To me, a national promotion needs to be nationally accessible on television and ROH is no longer such. Just because it was for a year should not mean it retains "national" character forever. According to the ROH TV map online], at the present date, 24 states don't have any access to it whatsoever. If a promotion isn't accessible to a large area (New England and the entire Midwest and then some, 24 states in all), that pretty much defines it as regional. MSJapan (talk) 05:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I know that Sinclair recently placed ROH on its Charge! digital subchannel network, though I don't know how many stations carry it; of course, the network also has a live-stream on its website.

At this point, I would probably place ROH & Impact at around the same level, as far as being #2 after WWE, due to both now being available, not only through television outlets, but also through internet live-streaming (ROH through Charge!'s website & Impact through its Twitch channel). 76.235.248.101 (talk) 01:56, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just so it's clear, after further review, CFW Hollywood is not on MAVTV any longer, and they've never toured outside their home territory. I wouldn't call them national by any means. They're the quintessential local independent. oknazevad (talk) 06:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree but I'm wondering why Lucha underground is listed as national. They have a show on a minor network that isn't carried by many. They also don't tour.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:14, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's on the second largest Spanish-language network in the country. Yes the English broadcast is on a minor network, but last I checked there's no requirement for it to be in English. oknazevad (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think Lucha Underground should be listed as one. Its very much an indie promotion and isnt on the level of WWE, TNA, etc. It is a minor network, most of my friends dont even get the channel. Besides just having a tv deal doesnt make it a national promotion.

Lucha Underground is set in one location and doesnt tour and is a very small promotion. 75.121.248.209 (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the second-largest Spanish language network, which is truly national in coverage, is a pretty big deal. oknazevad (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this should be reconsidered. United Wrestling Network, CWF HollyWood, CWF Arizona, and CWF Memphis. They have a Large TV footprint in the USA and Canada.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:16, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So folks, before this template becomes a bloated mess of links to every promotion that has ever existed in the United States, should we have a narrower inclusion criteria. Because some of the recent additions have been barely notable indies that put on like 4 shows 5-10 years ago (recent enough for someone to create an article, but not for anyone to follow up) and then disappeared. I truly question their notability. Unfortunately, instead of discussing like I asked, the anon who has added these have just reverted without discussion. oknazevad (talk) 01:28, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well... I think the criteria is to have an article. Notable promotions. If a promotion has an article in Wikipedia, it's notable. If you think a promotion isn't notable, AfD (I opened a discussion for Atlanta Wrestling Entertainment) --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was think more along the lines of "c-class and above" on the quality scale, as we have at {{Martial arts}}. Then maybe we can see if the promotions that don't make that cut really are notable or are they just promotional pieces for a non-notable Indy. oknazevad (talk) 14:27, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the NWA excluded from the governing bodies? They have a number of promotions under their banner. If nobody objects, I will add it to the template. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 00:29, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. It should be included as GB. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:22, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, they do not have a number of promotions under their banner. Not since Corgan bought the rights to the brand. They are a single promotion that, yes, works with other promotions, but that doesn't change that they do not govern anything other than their own titles. This isn't like the old days where they're were multiple member territories or affiliates. oknazevad (talk) 19:42, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But at this point it is still what they are most known as. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 11:26, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Oknazevad: Nothing has been done to not separate themselves from being a governing body. They haven't done any promoting of their own shows and just their owns outside of the anniversary shows. All they are doing if having some titles go from promotion to promotion to be defended. Like Galatz said, being a governing body is what they are known for at this point. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 13:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Fishhead2100: @Galatz: BUT, it (being a governing body/interpromotional alliance) is NO LONGER what the NWA is CURRENTLY known as (post-Corgan acquisition). Wikipedia is NOT for listing companies & organizations for what they USED TO be known as for their primary identifier; it IS for listing companies & organizations for what they are CURRENTLY known as for their primary identifier. As I've just had to argue to MarcoPolo in the edit summary, NONE of the promotions that the NWA World title is defended in are members of the NWA (they don't use the "NWA" prefix) and NONE of them have a LONG-TERM partnership with the NWA, so even if NWA titles are defended in other promotions, that does NOT continue to make the NWA even an "interpromotional alliance" at the very least. I mean, using that logic, if any of WWE's titles have ever been, are currently, or ever will be defended somewhere else other than WWE, then that would make the WWE an interpromotional alliance, which ANY wrestling fan knows it is NOT.

So, in conclusion, the National Wrestling Alliance, post-Corgan acquisition, is NO LONGER either a governing body OR even an interpromotional alliance. As it currently stands, the NWA is now just another independent wrestling promotion, even if they might not hold their own events that often where championships get defended. 76.235.248.101 (talk) 00:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@76.235.248.101: I suggest you read WP:NOT and site why you think one thing or another is what wikipedia is about, rather than just rambling on. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 13:40, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Galatz: Well, if you look at *any* article here on Wikipedia, unless it's for a defunct commercial enterprise or non-profit/not-for-profit organization/charity, most, if not the majority, of the information presented in an entity's info-box, as well as in the opening section that introduces the entity, uses either *current* or as up-to-date as possible information about said entity.

Therefore, with the article about the National Wrestling Alliance stating that it currently exits, *not* as a governing body or inter-promotional alliance, but as an independent promotion (with Corgan deciding to have the promotion terminate its affiliate agreements), even if the promotion has its championships often defended at wrestling events for other, non-affiliated, non-connected promotions (even though the Corgan-owned NWA *does* hold its own events sometimes), any place where the NWA is referenced would place it in a way that reflects its *current* status, *not* the status it held prior to 2017.

So, in conclusion, my first paragraph explains why I think "one thing is what Wikipedia is about" (to paraphrase your wording). The second one is me explaining why it is that I'm advocating for the NWA's placement in the template, *not* under "Governing bodies and interpromotional alliances", but rather under "Notable independent promotions", seeing as how the NWA is no longer the former, but rather the latter. 76.235.248.101 (talk) 07:15, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what the IP says. NWA is a promotion since the Corgan era, not a GB. So, I think it should be under independent promotions. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:40, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think WOW should be listed as National promotion. It doesn't matter if it's a only-women promotion. The main separation is national and independent and, since they have a national TV deal, it's a national promotion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Inthink we should hold off until it actually airs. They haven't had a show in years, and, per WP:CRYSTALBALL, it's premature to move them. oknazevad (talk) 12:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the show aired on January 18. http://www.wowe.com/beyond-ring/wow-%E2%80%93-women-wrestling-make-its-debut-axs-tv-friday-january-18-2019 HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:13, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is some back and forth I thought I would open a discussion

1 - Is NWA a national promotion or notable independant

2 - Is NWA Power a notable show.

Here are my thoughts

1 - I actually think NWA article should be split. The old entity would then be a governing body and the new promotion only the Corgan years. He clearly only purchased the assets (asset acquisition not a stock acquisition). I see this as no different than JCP vs WCW, with the only real difference is that the name didn't change, but really its a new company and serves completely different functions. That new company would be notable independent, for now. They have only done TV tapings in Atlanta, but did also do NWA New Years Clash in TN and Crockett Cup (2019) in SC. Not enough to really be a national promotion, but I think we need to wait and see what happens before sayings its national.

2 - This is just a YouTube show, which any promotion can do and many do. I would say they need a TV contract (big or small) that covers multiple markets to be considered for inclusion here.

Any other thoughts? - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 15:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As to the two questions, I'd say it's an indie, and no. It's trading on the history of the branding, but setting that aside, there is no way that it is on the same tier as even Impact, ROH, or MLW, let alone AEW or WWE (though nothing is really on the same level as WWE).

Interesting idea about splitting the NWA article. I would argue that there's probably even more splits that could be done, as the pre-1988 NWA territory system was hardly the same organization as the 90s-00s loose collective of indies. The fact is the organization really had no reason to exist once then-NWA president Jim Crockett signed total control of the world title over to WCW as part of the latter's formation. On the other hand, a reader would be best served by an overview of the entire history at the main article, so I'm not so sure a split is needed. oknazevad (talk) 21:46, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NWA in the Corgan era is national - they've done PPV, they've worked with ROH and have had NWA matches on ROH TV, and right now they're rebuilding and regrouping. Obviously with the legacy and history, you can't just treat them as your standard little local indy. And as this article outlines, Billy Corgan has big plans in mind for the company. So between it's past history and Corgan's plans, the NWA should be positioned above indy status. Vjmlhds (talk) 04:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So your arguments are WP:INHERITED and WP:CRYSTAL? - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 14:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my thoughts. Corgan bought a brand, not a promotion. Despite claims otherwise, the current NWA is two years old. And future plans don't mean a thing. oknazevad (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree, ([[User talk:Oknazevad]). While the NWA of now is an entirely new entity from its previous runs under Tharpe and such, Corgan's NWA has sanctioned matches in China and the United Kingdom, and they do still work with other promotions (Corgan even stated that they would continue to work other promotions, even with WWE again, but not Impact). That NWA Power is only taped in Atlanta and is shown primarily on the internet is completely irrelevant; just because The NWA looks no different to ROH and MLW, doesn't mean they are on the "same tier". Never mind that ROH and MLW are largely seen domestically on obscure TV networks in the United States (At the very least, you don't need cable to watch ROH, but you don't need cable to watch NWA either), while Impact Wrestling has held events and TV tapings around the world and is broadcast in 30-something countries despite its low production values. No "indie" promotion has done what the NWA has done in the past 3 years under Corgan and the NWA, just by its linage and what it means to professional wrestling as a whole, should not be lumped in with actual farm territories regardless of public perception. And it's nothing short of ignorance on your part to say "future plans don't mean a thing" when planning for the future is everything in a business. Not to mention, those "future plans" are already a reality: The NWA has accomplished everything they said they were going to do from the very beginning. Bottom line: The NWA is a national promotion and NWA Power is very much a notable show. That being said, we obviously can't call the NWA a governing body or an interpromotional alliance anymore, since that implies that the members of its roster are currently working for other promotions, or the promotions themselves are owned under an umbrella company. As for splitting off the article, I do agree that the history section should be split off into its own page to avoid the page getting too big, but that needs to be discussed on the NWA page, not here. MarcoPolo250 (talk) 17:50, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Saying they are going to do something and actually doing it are not the same thing. Also you are making up definitions of independent. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 18:57, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a YouTube series is not on par with an actual television series. Anyone can produce one. Power does not belong in that list. oknazevad (talk) 22:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whether this organization is currently national or not should be discussed. This should be decided by voting. It is wrong to put it in independent promotions in this way. Robert Porterrr (talk) 16:46, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I feel NWA should be given national promotion status as their world title is recognized as such by Pro Wrestling Illustrated. They are currently the only promotion with such distinction not listed as a national promotion.

Pwi doesn't recognized the nwa title as world title. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And even if they did, it doesn't matter. Long-standing consensus that PWI is not determinative of anything. oknazevad (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

but when combined with the profile of power on fite tv and the brand recognition nwa has from partnerships with aew, impact, roh, ect. (plus the brands own history) it's pretty clear the current nwa is on a level above "notable independent promotions". while you could debate them as national on the grounds that they mainly only co-produce events outside of the south east and the fite tv deal is streaming, it perhaps makes more sense to retitle the section "major promotions" rather than "national promotions" and put it inline with japan, the uk, and mexico's. Msr89 12:43, 15/8/21

https://www.bodyslam.net/2021/03/06/pwi-announces-world-title-recognition-for-several-promotions-in-its-publication/ it's been widely reported that they are and they've even commented on the matter on twitter https://twitter.com/OfficialPWI/status/1365399897843892228 Msr89 18:42, 14/8/21

about this. 1,your arguments sounds like wp:or. Usually we include promotions with national TV shows. Fite includes several promotions like GCW or WW, I don't see why nwa is different from the others. 2,changing the name. I would have no problem since internet changed the landscape and "national" is kind of obsolete. But major sounds like OR. Anyone can argue his favorite promotion, like GCW, is major. There are sources calling wwe, impact, roh and aew the biggest promotions in USA. 3,PWI has no power, it's just a magazine. We didn't deleted roh or tna from the list, no reason to include other based on their own personal criteria. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1, fite does not include gcw as a special subscription package but it does for nwa, as nwa struck the first exclusivity deal for fite. it's safe to say nwa is a marquee on fite in a way other promotions are not. 2, i would use discretion and factor in things like media deals, press attention, and 3, pwi, while having no real power, is one of the most popular wrestling publications and it's granted nwa legit world title status. this combined with stuff like a media deal definitely put promotions into another realm profile wise. i would argue nwa has done enough to be placed above a simple indie but do whatever Msr89 12:01, 16/8/21

It's not original research if actual publications are saying the same thing, let alone giving the NWA coverage, so what gives this website any more power than them? No other indie has their own weekly show first-run on YouTube or Fite. If "anyone can do it", why has it only been actual indies, like Ohio Valley Wrestling and Championship Wrestling From Hollywood? These promotions that have never held events, or had their titles defended, outside their homebase; let alone had the same coverage that the Crockett Cup, or the Anniversary Shows got. The fact of the matter is that the NWA, between its current form and its past history, is simply too big to be considered just another indy.Thecleanerand (talk) 13:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This organization is no longer an notable internet program. Must be put on the defunct list Robert Porterrr (talk) 16:38, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Kahn now owns Ring of Honor, alongside All Elite Wrestling. However, no announcement of some kind of merger between the two promotions, nor a reorganization under an umbrella brand or holding company (ie CyberFight, WWNLive) has been made yet. Just as World Wonder Ring Stardom and New Japan Pro-Wrestling are both owned by Bushiroad but are still treated as separate entities, that's the current status of AEW and ROH for the time being.Thecleanerand (talk) 17:01, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, here's a report stating that ROH is going to be used as basically a developmental territory for AEW.So essentially, ROH is going to be a AEW's NXT. Vjmlhds (talk) 05:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bodyslam.net is not a credible source and the 411mania article is just repeating bullet points from said un-credible source. Either find a different source of wait for an official announcement.Thecleanerand (talk) 13:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bodyslam.net (which 411 credits) is absolute garbage and shouldn't be used for any claim. ROH may or may not end up like NXT, we need better sources before we make that decision. Right now they're two separate promotions that happen to be owned by the same guy.LM2000 (talk) 13:11, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

right now there are just speculation, so right now, two different promotions. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:06, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone suggested that they're not separate companies? Either way we don't know what ROH's future is right now, and per WP:CRYSTAL we dont need to mention it at this juncture. — Czello 17:15, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, actually. There were multiple attempts by one editor to put ROH under AEW. This discussion was in response to that and I'd say pretty much establishes consensus that they should not be listed as such, and that doing such misrepresents the relationship between the companies at this time. oknazevad (talk) 19:44, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Czello, the header is "AEW and ROH are still separate companies". I saw some attemps to include ROH as a farm territorie for AEW. However, stills no source about it, just plans or speculations, nothing for sure at the time. So yes, ROH and AEW still separated promotions. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to see this has been resolved, but I'm getting REAL TIRED of know-nothings reversing my edits.Thecleanerand (talk) 18:32, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now that 6 months have gone by, and it's become apparent that ROH is basically fused in with AEW, is anybody really still under the illusion that AEW and ROH are separate entities? VJmlhds (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Until a formal merger is announced (or a permanent shutdown of ROH), yes, they're still two separate companies (one full-time, one part-time) with common ownership sharing talent and titles. They're not one company. Please don't make any edits implying they are, as that would be pure OR.

Now, that said, I personally wish Tony would just let ROH Rest In Peace and concentrate on the one promotion that actually is full time, but that's just me. oknazevad (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with OK. There is no source about a fusion. Just two companies with one common owner. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:58, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is the AEW website's upcoming events page...you will see ROH Final Battle listed as an AEW event. How much longer are we gonna pretend that ROH isn't really just part of AEW? It feels like we're looking for excuses to hold out hope instead of just seeing what's right in front of us. Vjmlhds (talk) 02:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)~[reply]

WP:SYNTH, WP:OR. No source explicitly says roh is subsidiary or part of AEW. Everyone states that Tony Khan owns the promotion-. Both are owned by Khan, so he can promote them as he wants. HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No one said he didn't own ROH, the only issue is whether ROH is a stand alone entity or just a glorified piece of AEW. There have been similar situations to this - in the late 80s when Jim Crockett was buying up all the other NWA territories (Georgia, Florida, Mid-South/UWF) and those title were defended on Crockett shows until they were unified. And then there was when WWE bought out WCW, and all their titles were defended on WWE during the Invasion. AEW-ROH really does look a lot like more of the same...ROH titles defended on AEW shows, ROH shows promoted as AEW events. My point is that it really looks like grasping at straws to hold on to the belief that ROH is a separate, independent company from AEW, when all the evidence points to ROH really just being absorbed into the AEW stratosphere. Vjmlhds (talk) 16:45, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, there is no source supporting that ROH was absorbed. WP:SYNTH "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. " --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ROH remains a legally separate company, and is actively promoting events under their own banner, even if some of the people are on a talent sharing agreement with fellow Tony Khan-owned company AEW. AEW is not ROH's parent company, and there's no common parent company above the two.

Now, do I personally think that ROH should be given a dignified sendoff before being fully absorbed into AEW, as it effectively lost any meaningful identity as a separate company when Khan bought it? Yes. Has it happened? No. What I would like to see isn't relevant to reporting facts. Fact is, ROH still exists, and is not a subsidiary. oknazevad (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We still under the impression ROH is separate from AEW or is reality finally setting in? Vjmlhds (talk) 18:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources don't support ROH is absorbed. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]