Talk:Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 2

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Good articleAgents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 2 has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 8, 2015Good article nomineeListed
Did You Know
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on July 25, 2015.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the second season of the television series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. introduced the Inhumans race to the Marvel Cinematic Universe ahead of their own film?

Calvin Zabo?

Burningblue52's edit to add comic codenames was reverted with the reason "these names are never used in the series". This seems correct and consistent with other pages. However, Skye's father was never called Zabo in the series either. In fact, the sign on his office showed his last name was Johnson. Is this an oversight or did I miss a discussion somewhere? - DinoSlider (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although he wasn't referred to as "Zabo" in the show, it has been confirmed that it is his last name in interviews and was even hinted at in the show. He never took on the name "Mr. Hyde" in the show, nor does Bobbi ever call herself "Mockingbird".Darkknight2149 (talk) 16:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I never expressed any desire to use Hyde or Mockingbird. In fact, I agree with the decision not to. I am only discussing the use of Zabo since it was also never used in the show, but Johnson was. The hint you referred to only applies to those familiar with the comic book character. For those who never read the comics (like me), it seems confusing and misleading to call him anything other than Johnson. BTW, Marvel has referred to Adrianne Palicki's character as Mockingbird but we do not use it here since it has never been used on the show, so I don't see how this is different. - DinoSlider (talk) 18:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The producers refer to him as Calvin Zabo, and though this name is never spoken on screen, the character does mention that he has changed his last name from Johnson. These points together I think make it okay to keep referring to him here as Zabo. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The removal of Madame Masque from the Agent Carter article made me remember this discussion. I have never seen a quote from a producer that referred to him as Zabo. I did see interviewers call him that, but the producers would coyly avoid using the name themselves. For argument's sake, let's say there is a quote from a producer calling him that. He is never called that on screen. I can produce quotes from producers using the name Mockingbird (along with lots of marketing), but that name is not allowed on this page. Even though you and I know that the line "I changed it to something more sinister" is a nod to the name of the character in the comics, how is it not WP:OR to include it here? DinoSlider (talk) 04:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The official Marvel website calls him Calvin Zabo here and the series itself makes reference to Zabo's name change. I recall the producers saying the name "Zabo" as well but I'll have to find that interview. Darkknight2149 (talk) 05:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the Marvel website also refers to Bobbi Morse as Mockingbird, but that is not allowed here. Why the double standard? DinoSlider (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because there is no precedence in the show at this point. We know that Cal changed his last name, and that name has been given to us by multiple reliable sources. To say that it is not his name, based on what the series has told us, would be blatant ignoring of the primary source, which doesn't make sense to me at all. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a strange instance where we should lean on using Calvin Johnson, because that is his name for his time on the show, disregarding any flashback appearances. In the casting section of this page and the LoC page, we should mention the Zabo name, with the Marvel source, but I think we should stick to Johnson. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that it is the other way around - in flashback he was Calvin Johnson, but he has since changed his name to "something more sinister" for his 'present day' appearances, revealed to us by several reliable sources to be Calvin Zabo. So since we are referring to him primarily with his normal appearances on the show, rather than the flashback, we should use Calvin Zabo as his name, noting where appropriate that it used to be Calvin Johnson. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Did I just get that backwards? Then yeah it should be Zabo, though I don't think it would hurt to mention in the casting section, while in the series it mentions he changed his name from Johnson and Marvel refers to him as Calvin Zabo, it's never said and/or shown. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could list him as "Cal Johnson / Calvin Zabo"? Darkknight2149 (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How about in the casting section here, and in the Calvin Zabo section at the list of characters page, we say something like "Though the character mentions changing his surname from Johnson to "something more sinister", and he has been referred to as Calvin Zabo by Marvel, the name Zabo is never actually used in the series." Would that work? - adamstom97 (talk) 00:51, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we do that, I think it would be best to list him as "Calvin Johnson", while leaving a note like this: 1 Darkknight2149 (talk) 01:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

Notes

  1. ^ Though the character mentions changing his surname from Johnson to "something more sinister", and he has been referred to as Calvin Zabo by Marvel, the name Zabo is never actually used in the series.

Season 2 finale synopsis

There is a disagreement on the synopsis for the Season 2 finale. I tried to edit it to summarize the salient information only, and in a manner that is clear and appropriately worded. User:Ditto51 has reverted the edits. Here is the last diff.

Which one do the other editors here think is a better summary of the salient information? Nightscream (talk) 04:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I still feel that the current version is the best. There is no problem with the way that the bullet is brought up, and the line about the jet being pushed into the ocean is necessary for context for the last line. You have suggested a change and it was reverted with sound reasoning by more than one editor, it's probably best to leave it be. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:56, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, my last edit, which is the current revision at the moment, was an attempt at a small compromise after seeing the back and forth earlier. - DinoSlider (talk) 13:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The use of the phrase "the bullet" is incorrect. The definite article the is used with something that has already been identified. When first identifying something, the indefinite articles a or an are used. See definite article.

The mention of the jet is not necessary for the next line, and my version illustrates this:

Jiaying attempts to spread more crystals around the world with a Quinjet, but Skye and Cal foil the plan, and kill Jiaying.

The who, what, when, where and why of the plot is explained. Whether Skye used a plane, a chainsaw or high-cholesterol foods is unimportant trivia. Nightscream (talk) 02:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your version does not explain how the crystals end up in the ocean, an event that is referenced later in the plot and so should not be left out. - adamstom97 (talk) 02:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken. I don't mind if the terrigen point is included. But the first passage about Morse's booby trap is still written with poorer explanatory clarity than it cold be (though I appreciate that it was changed to the correct article). Nightscream (talk) 01:58, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Morse / bullet info can probably be clarified a bit. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:30, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oliver in cast list

Adamstom.97 and I have been discussing Oliver, played by Mark Allan Stewart, appearing in the cast list (see here). We agree that, despite appearing five times, above our determined number of 4 for "recurring", he really is just a minor character, and possibly shouldn't be in the "recurring" list, but still be in prose in the casting section. I think, as an alternative, we should move him to the "notable guests" section, despite him appearing first this season. An exception could be made for him, because he probably should be listed, beyond just in prose. Also, thoughts on his inclusion at the LoC page, where I have moved him to the "recurring" section. But maybe he should go back to the 'Guest" section. Looking to get some thoughts on this idea. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a suggestion that I hadn't thought of before: do we want to change our groups to series regulars, recurring guests, (other) notable guests, and notable co-stars (FYI guest stars are credited at the start of the episode with the regulars, co-stars are in the end credits). That way, if a minor co-star appears in a few episodes, and then gets one guest star credit, which I believe is what happened with Oliver, then they wouldn't be recurring guests, they could just slot in the guest section, if that makes sense. If we did that, then I think we would just have these co-stars at the character list rather than the season pages. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:45, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that this list is what we will get, but I'd double check before implementing it. - adamstom97 (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if we have to implement another heading, when we could just place certain characters under the "notable guest" heading, as I suggested, on a case by case basis. And if we implemented it at the LoC, I think that at that point, we'd be defining too much. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:58, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then do you want to take the guest star / co-star difference into consideration, but just keep the notable co-stars in the guest star section? That would be a slight adjustment from what we currently have, Option 2 here. Then the notable guest stars at the season pages would be any reprise, not including these co-stars. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:28, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think if we use "Co-star" at all, that will get confusing, with the thought possibly that they are also "starring" in some way. So they can go in the "guest" sections, both here and at the LoC. However, that really only applies to Oliver (moving him to the "Notable guest" section here, and back to "Introduced in S2" section at the LoC). The only other I moved was Anderson from S3, but he should be in the "Recurring" sections (both at the LoC and S3 page) because he has recurred across seasons, and is currently at 5 appearances, with 4 in S3. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:22, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think saying co-star is anymore confusing than saying guest star, but I meant that we shouldn't say co-star, but can still use it for sorting. Because if we don't then characters like Oliver and Anderson, who aren't really recurring characters in spirit, fit the criteria for recurring anyway. If we do use the co-star status to help us sort, then those characters and a few others can slot nicely into the guest section. We do need to have some sort of consistent approach. Also, the notable guest sections are for returning characters only, so Oliver shouldn't be there. It seems to me that you want to keep this simple and don't want to get caught up in any new system or rules, but I think introducing this behind-the-scenes co-star criteria is going to make everything better and easier moving forward.
Just to clarify, this is what I am talking about: for the LoC, Main cast is decided by the producers, recurring refers to guest stars who have made 4 or more credited appearances, and guest is any other notable guest plus a few notable co-stars; for the season pages, Main and recurring are the same, while notable guests are any guest stars who are returning from previous MCU projects. That seems pretty straight forward to me, and just makes everything a little bit better. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:59, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That helped me understand your position better. So then where or how do you suggest them be handled on season pages, because they should be there in some form. Maybe just prose then and see what that gets us? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, and we could readjust if there is a problem. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So, do you want to try this out and see how it goes? - adamstom97 (talk) 06:28, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah you can go ahead and make the adjustments. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Adamstom.97: The only issues I have with the changes are: at the LoC, Alisha, Kebo, and Anderson should have all stated in the recurring section, because they are recurring across the series, reaching the total over multiple season appearances (regardless of them being co-starring or not); on S3 page, I feel like Kebo should have stayed in the recurring section; and I thought we were keeping who we removed in the lists on the season articles in the casting prose section? You removed them from there too, if they were originally there. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There still seems to be a bit of confusion here, because I implemented everything as we discussed. Alisha and Kebo only guest starred in one episode, so just like Oliver they don't meet our (new) criteria for recurring, but because they co-starred in other episodes they do meet our (new) criteria for the guest section, so they were moved there. I don't think Anderson has even guest starred in any episodes yet, but since he has co-starred in a few he also meets the criteria for the guest section. And I personally feel like this is appropriate; they are all just not on the same level as the other recurring characters like Zabo or Price. As for the season articles, I had interpreted it as carrying over the main, recurring, and returning guests from the LoC, but only putting the "notable" returning guests in the "notable guest" column, which is why Oliver and Anderson weren't carried over to the casting sections. However, I am happy to add them back in there if that's what you were thinking.
Overall, we have to make sure we are being consistent, and not just moving characters around because we feel like it. That is why I laid out the 'new criteria' above, so we can look at it and definitively say who goes where. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah maybe I'm still confused. Let's start with the LoC. Kebo, Alisha and Anderson, regardless of guest, co-star, etc., all had 4 or more appearances across multiple seasons, so that makes them recurring for the series. So in my eyes, regardless of your new thinking, they should stay there. What their table cells read, based on your new thinking, can then be discussed. So then if that affects how they are portrayed on the season article lists, that's fine. But if an actor or actress still reaches the 4 episodes, they should be included in the prose of the casting section. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 06:11, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So your thinking is something like this: Main cast is decided by the producers, recurring refers to guest stars who have made 4 or more credited appearances plus others who have made 4 or more appearances across multiple seasons, and guest is any other notable guest plus a few notable co-stars? I can understand that thinking, but I don't know if I necessarily agree with it. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:27, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Basically. ...plus others who have made 4 or more appearances across multiple seasons only applies on the LoC page. Within each season, it is still contained to the 4 or more credited appearances. Because the LoC is handling the series as a whole, that's how we can get the recurring series actors, even if within each season, they only get co-starring or guest credit. And I think I'd make this as follows, ...guest is any other notable guests that do not reach 4 credited appearances, plus a few notable co-stars.. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:52, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'm still not all that keen on this, especially with listing Anderson as a recurring character, but I'll go ahead and add them back for now. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This all looks good to me now. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:28, 30 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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